Author Topic: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it  (Read 19983 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2012, 12:24:43 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11833
  • Tommy Points: 950
Without taking offense into account at all, how many big shooting guards are there that you would rather have a healthy Ray Allen defend against because of Bradley's size?  If you have a problem making a list, then Bradley's size is really not an issue.

"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2012, 12:42:38 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5227
  • Tommy Points: 1065
Without taking offense into account at all, how many big shooting guards are there that you would rather have a healthy Ray Allen defend against because of Bradley's size?  If you have a problem making a list, then Bradley's size is really not an issue.



Ray Allen is 37 with bad ankles. Let's not make him the benchmark.

If we are talking about defending someone like Ginobili, or Bryant, or Harden, or Johnson, or JR Smith, or even people like Hayward, Paul George or (gasp) Gerald Green, then size could be a factor - either in the post, or just on jumpers.

Most All-Defense-level players have good size for their position.

I don't think we know one way or the other how AB would do in a high-level situation against one of those guys, but it will be interesting to see. We will learn a lot in the playoffs.

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2012, 12:55:25 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42585
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
I used to think that AB's size was an issue at the 2, but he has consistently played bigger than his size.  Case in point, head turning block on DWade a few games ago, and his improving ability to finish at the rim.  I like it that he is strong, can really dunk hard in traffic and is somewhat fearless in attacking the rim (kind of like Rondo used to be).

Wait until there is a 7 game playoff series against a D-Wade, or...wait. Are there any good 2 guards on the Eastern Conference teams? Joe Johnson. Wait until there is a 7 game playoff series against a D-Wade or Joe Johnson, or, for that matter, any 2 guard who knows how to work the paint.

If AB's size is a limitation, that's where it will be exposed; where the pace isn't quite frantic enough to maximize his uber-motor, and the guy he's guarding knows how to score in the post.

Joe Johnson plays the 3 this year.

Not for the majority of his minutes:

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112ATL2.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1112/11ATL6.HTM#bypos

Quote
As far as Dwayne Wade he will get his no matter who is playing him don't you think? I would at least say that AB can defend Wade better than 50% of NBA SG's and that's downplaying it. What he doesn't have in height he makes up for with quickness, fighting through screens etc. Its not like there are any NBA players that can match his defense along with his quickness.

I just don't see Wade or someone like that abusing AB anymore than they would a different SG

What I was saying, is that Wade's strength and ability to score in the low post (he's a very gifted player with his back to the basket, ala Kobe, or LeBron) is where Bradley will really struggle.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2012, 01:14:32 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9931
  • Tommy Points: 777
Without taking offense into account at all, how many big shooting guards are there that you would rather have a healthy Ray Allen defend against because of Bradley's size?  If you have a problem making a list, then Bradley's size is really not an issue.



Ray Allen is 37 with bad ankles. Let's not make him the benchmark.

If we are talking about defending someone like Ginobili, or Bryant, or Harden, or Johnson, or JR Smith, or even people like Hayward, Paul George or (gasp) Gerald Green, then size could be a factor - either in the post, or just on jumpers.

Most All-Defense-level players have good size for their position.

I don't think we know one way or the other how AB would do in a high-level situation against one of those guys, but it will be interesting to see. We will learn a lot in the playoffs.
I too have apprehension at the generalizabilty of Avery's defense due to size, but it is irrelevant what most all-defense-level players have. A player's defense won't be judged on that. And since you said 'most', it seems we have guys who are all defense despite being below average in height for their position.

Forming arguments is pointless in this. All that matters is what happens on the court. The Celtics have played great defense with Avery and Rondo on the court at the same time apart from the recent opponent 3 pt barrages, which would be hard to blame on Avery's height.

I feel people build these unwarranted generalized narratives off of single games or based on inferences from non-game data but do not try to challenge their own hypothesis by looking at the larger body of data. We can always find data that has the appearance of supporting our claims.

Too much lawyer, not enough scientist.

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2012, 01:26:54 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Walter Brown
  • ********************************
  • Posts: 32353
  • Tommy Points: 10099
The thing is this offseason is the scheduled rebuild year
according to who?
Quote
If he was interested in actually developing talent we would've kept Gerald Green, traded pierce for the #3 pick and chris paul, and kept al jefferson
He had a number of years of irrelevancy with the need to improve.  now, not so much.  he has better assets available to him to put together a very good team with current parts.

Quote
As a result, it wouldn't shock me if a major roster overhaul is done this offseason
Much different from your original statement that one or both of them will definitely be traded. 

Quote
This time around we have guys like
LaMarcus Aldridge, David Lee, Dwight Howard, Josh Smith, OJ Mayo, Rudy Gay, Deron Williams, Roy Hibbert, Eric Gordon, Andrew Bogut, and Al Jefferson

It would shock me if 2-3 of these guys WEREN'T wearing a celtics jersey come next season
It would shock me if we obtained any of those players.  None except Mayo are remotely realistic and with Bradley's improvement, I don't see the need for Mayo (except on turkey sandwiches)

Quote
We could be going
Rondo/Rivers/Josh Smith/Aldridge/Stiemsma Next year
with Jeff Green 6th man.
I think there's a good chance we might make a push for aldridge or david lee, they might come cheaper than we expect, especially if we are willing to take on a bad contract in return which we can, Biedrins would actually be serviceable for us
or something come next year
I think there's 0 chance of Aldridge or Lee.  No realistic basis for anyone to think we'd have the trade assets those teams want without those players on their roster.

Quote
I have a strong feeling Rivers is going to find his way into boston, Doc was going to leave coaching to "be closer to his son" and then he went on to sign an extension, obviously the premise behind it was possibly working together
not sure why you'd have a strong feeling over that but whatever.

Quote
If we don't get Rivers, Eric Gordan and OJ Mayo are there to fill in the SG void
I'll be willing to risk all the assets we have
and try to end up with a lineup of
Rondo/Eric Gordon/Josh Smith/David Lee/Steamer

We try to outbid for Gordon if not pay for Mayo, whoever's cheaper. I'm also going to take pierce's word on retiring, we may amnesty him to allow for this
Again, with Bradley's development, especially his consistency because it's not like he's having up and down games as the season progresses, Mayo and Gordon don't look like priorities this offseason, particularly when considering their anticipated cost and lack of defensive efforts/skills.

Quote
We can sign & trade Ray Allen a Pick and Bass for Josh Smith
no way Atlanta takes that package.  Ray's damaged goods and with limited time left and as much as I like Bass, he's not on Smith's level as a player.

Quote
We package S&T KG, throw in JJJ to land David Lee and Beindries
just to go along with the fantasy KG would agree to a S&T to a crap team, why would a non-contender (someone not even close such as Golden State) trade their best front court player and serviceable big man for a 1-2 year rental of KG (which would be a budget-busting contract to be sure) and an unproven rookie?

Quote
The kicker is we can throw the MLE to get andrei Kirlienko or something
how about we just kick the idea of using the MLE on AK completely?

Here's much more likely line-up for next year:
Starting: Rondo, Bradley, PP, KG & FA bigman  (the FA can be either a center or PF depending on whether KG is ok playing center next year)
Bench: Pietrus, Green, Steimsma, Bass (or other FA 4/5 but preferably Bass), JJJ, Moore, FA PG & 3 rookies (2 1sts and 1 2nd)

(Hollins, Dooling, Sasha, Quisy are all gone.  Maybe the FA bigs swill be Wilcox and/or Sean Williams if either is healthy and looks to be ready to play)

Look for the FA contracts and resignings to coincide with PP's contract ending where Danny frees up the cap room to take a real run at top FA's that year and has almost everyone else on rookie deals or on reasonable extensions (like Rondo).  One thing to consider is that the proposed 'likely' roster is a very solid team depending on the FA pickups but even if the starting big man rotation was Bass & KG, and we added reasonable FA bench talent (such as Camby, Wilcox or Williams), that team is deep enough to make some waves for a couple of years until a real retooling can happen.  Also the young kids will have had a chance to prove their abilities and Danny can determine if they're keepers or trade bait.

bottom line, neither Rondo or Bradley is 'definitely' going to be traded.

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2012, 01:36:41 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11833
  • Tommy Points: 950
Without taking offense into account at all, how many big shooting guards are there that you would rather have a healthy Ray Allen defend against because of Bradley's size?  If you have a problem making a list, then Bradley's size is really not an issue.



Ray Allen is 37 with bad ankles. Let's not make him the benchmark.

I think he is an ideal benchmark, and I specified him being healthy as a condition. 

Is Bradley's height such a big deal that there are opposing SGs where you would rather use a mediocre-to-average defender who is a few inches taller out there?
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2012, 01:38:39 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42585
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Without taking offense into account at all, how many big shooting guards are there that you would rather have a healthy Ray Allen defend against because of Bradley's size?  If you have a problem making a list, then Bradley's size is really not an issue.



Ray Allen is 37 with bad ankles. Let's not make him the benchmark.

I think he is an ideal benchmark, and I specified him being healthy as a condition. 

Is Bradley's height such a big deal that there are opposing SGs where you would rather use a mediocre-to-average defender who is a few inches taller out there?

Pretty weird way of framing the argument.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2012, 01:40:09 PM »

Offline CelticG1

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4201
  • Tommy Points: 288
Without taking offense into account at all, how many big shooting guards are there that you would rather have a healthy Ray Allen defend against because of Bradley's size?  If you have a problem making a list, then Bradley's size is really not an issue.



Ray Allen is 37 with bad ankles. Let's not make him the benchmark.

If we are talking about defending someone like Ginobili, or Bryant, or Harden, or Johnson, or JR Smith, or even people like Hayward, Paul George or (gasp) Gerald Green, then size could be a factor - either in the post, or just on jumpers.

Most All-Defense-level players have good size for their position.

I don't think we know one way or the other how AB would do in a high-level situation against one of those guys, but it will be interesting to see. We will learn a lot in the playoffs.

Well let's take ot a step further then . What shooting guards would you want defending Wade (as an example)? Tony allen, Kobe, Iggy (he's playing sf this year but whatever), Ronnie brewer, kirk heinrich, Shumpert,

I mean Bradley is at least on that list

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2012, 01:47:49 PM »

Offline alajet

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 790
  • Tommy Points: 54
Without taking offense into account at all, how many big shooting guards are there that you would rather have a healthy Ray Allen defend against because of Bradley's size?  If you have a problem making a list, then Bradley's size is really not an issue.



Ray Allen is 37 with bad ankles. Let's not make him the benchmark.

If we are talking about defending someone like Ginobili, or Bryant, or Harden, or Johnson, or JR Smith, or even people like Hayward, Paul George or (gasp) Gerald Green, then size could be a factor - either in the post, or just on jumpers.

Most All-Defense-level players have good size for their position.

I don't think we know one way or the other how AB would do in a high-level situation against one of those guys, but it will be interesting to see. We will learn a lot in the playoffs.

Well let's take ot a step further then . What shooting guards would you want defending Wade (as an example)? Tony allen, Kobe, Iggy (he's playing sf this year but whatever), Ronnie brewer, kirk heinrich, Shumpert,

I mean Bradley is at least on that list

Allen and Bryant. Others are irrelevant in my eyes. Not good enough for Wade.

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2012, 01:49:37 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42585
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Without taking offense into account at all, how many big shooting guards are there that you would rather have a healthy Ray Allen defend against because of Bradley's size?  If you have a problem making a list, then Bradley's size is really not an issue.



Ray Allen is 37 with bad ankles. Let's not make him the benchmark.

If we are talking about defending someone like Ginobili, or Bryant, or Harden, or Johnson, or JR Smith, or even people like Hayward, Paul George or (gasp) Gerald Green, then size could be a factor - either in the post, or just on jumpers.

Most All-Defense-level players have good size for their position.

I don't think we know one way or the other how AB would do in a high-level situation against one of those guys, but it will be interesting to see. We will learn a lot in the playoffs.

Well let's take ot a step further then . What shooting guards would you want defending Wade (as an example)? Tony allen, Kobe, Iggy (he's playing sf this year but whatever), Ronnie brewer, kirk heinrich, Shumpert,

I mean Bradley is at least on that list

Sefelosha, Stevenson, Jason Kidd, Manu is a good defender.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2012, 01:54:18 PM »

Offline CelticG1

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4201
  • Tommy Points: 288
I used to think that AB's size was an issue at the 2, but he has consistently played bigger than his size.  Case in point, head turning block on DWade a few games ago, and his improving ability to finish at the rim.  I like it that he is strong, can really dunk hard in traffic and is somewhat fearless in attacking the rim (kind of like Rondo used to be).

Wait until there is a 7 game playoff series against a D-Wade, or...wait. Are there any good 2 guards on the Eastern Conference teams? Joe Johnson. Wait until there is a 7 game playoff series against a D-Wade or Joe Johnson, or, for that matter, any 2 guard who knows how to work the paint.

If AB's size is a limitation, that's where it will be exposed; where the pace isn't quite frantic enough to maximize his uber-motor, and the guy he's guarding knows how to score in the post.

Joe Johnson plays the 3 this year.

Not for the majority of his minutes:

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112ATL2.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1112/11ATL6.HTM#bypos

Quote
As far as Dwayne Wade he will get his no matter who is playing him don't you think? I would at least say that AB can defend Wade better than 50% of NBA SG's and that's downplaying it. What he doesn't have in height he makes up for with quickness, fighting through screens etc. Its not like there are any NBA players that can match his defense along with his quickness.

I just don't see Wade or someone like that abusing AB anymore than they would a different SG

What I was saying, is that Wade's strength and ability to score in the low post (he's a very gifted player with his back to the basket, ala Kobe, or LeBron) is where Bradley will really struggle.

So he may struggle in the post, how many SG's don't struggle with Wade in the  post? And im sure 90% of SG's would struggle more with Wade off the dribble drive than with Bradley, so isn't it pretty much of a tradeoff?

How many guards in league possess bradleys quickness, defense, athleticism, instincts, and are 3a inches taller than him? Is there such a thing?

I think we are just being a bit greedy. There are not too many other guys in the league I would rather have matched up against wade than AB, unless you are pretty much talking about an all-star . Can you name me some?

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2012, 02:00:06 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42585
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
So he may struggle in the post, how many SG's don't struggle with Wade in the  post? And im sure 90% of SG's would struggle more with Wade off the dribble drive than with Bradley, so isn't it pretty much of a tradeoff?

Yeah. I said if Avery Bradley has a weakness, its his size. That doesn't mean he's not a phenomenal defender.

Quote
How many guards in league possess bradleys quickness, defense, athleticism, instincts, and are 3a inches taller than him? Is there such a thing?

Tony Allen?

Quote
I think we are just being a bit greedy. There are not too many other guys in the league I would rather have matched up against wade than AB, unless you are pretty much talking about an all-star . Can you name me some?

Thabo Sefelosha. Tony Allen.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2012, 02:11:32 PM »

Offline ChapelHillCeltic

  • Xavier Tillman
  • Posts: 42
  • Tommy Points: 3
I agree.  One of them will get traded.

At some point in their career.   ;D

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2012, 03:28:27 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48121
  • Tommy Points: 8800
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
So he may struggle in the post, how many SG's don't struggle with Wade in the  post? And im sure 90% of SG's would struggle more with Wade off the dribble drive than with Bradley, so isn't it pretty much of a tradeoff?

Yeah. I said if Avery Bradley has a weakness, its his size. That doesn't mean he's not a phenomenal defender.

Quote
How many guards in league possess bradleys quickness, defense, athleticism, instincts, and are 3a inches taller than him? Is there such a thing?

Tony Allen?

Quote
I think we are just being a bit greedy. There are not too many other guys in the league I would rather have matched up against wade than AB, unless you are pretty much talking about an all-star . Can you name me some?

Thabo Sefelosha. Tony Allen.
I think CelticG1 has made his point. There are at best, a handful of defenders other than Bradley that would be better suited and more capable of playing the tallest, most physical and most talented SGs in the league.

So constantly criticizing his size is just being greedy in wanting a perfect player, IMHO.

Though as you have been quite clear about, I must admit, you at least, are only saying you would prefer him to be bigger and he is still an outstanding defender. Others are acting like its a huge deal.

Also, given Tony Allen's shooting skills and ability to go bonehead on the court and Thabo's almost complete lack of offense(though maybe that's because Durant, Harden and Westbrook take 90% of that team's shots) as a total package I think I would prefer Bradley and his willingness to learn and untapped upside.

Re: Either Rondo or Bradley IS getting traded no doubt about it
« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2012, 04:21:49 PM »

Offline RAcker

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3892
  • Tommy Points: 69
  • Law mercy!
can u tell me tomorrow's lottery numbers while ur at it
;D