Author Topic: Clippers in the lottery?  (Read 25665 times)

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Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2012, 11:05:41 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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Wonder if there'd be a logical trade in our hypothetical. Clearly Jordan commands a decent amount of value.

Maybe Jordan to the Blazers for Matthews and Batum, resign K-Mart
Perhaps, Josh Smith.
CP3, Josh Smith, and Griffin for a D'Antoni team would be impressive.

Eh, not crazy about the idea of pairing Smith and Griffin. They've got a lot of similarities, both good and bad. I don't think the spacing Smith creates offensively balances out how undersized they'd be defensively.

Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2012, 11:12:48 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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It doesn't matter much if they miss the playoffs or not, each spot they drop in the standings is one spot the C's pick moves up.  So, their continued losing is good for the C's regardless.  If they do miss the playoffs, their odds of winning a top 3 spot in the lottery (and thereby the C's not getting their pick), will probably by like 2-3%
Expected value wise we want the Clippers pick to be in the lottery, the big jump in the picks value is worth a small chance it ends up in the top 3.

Exactly.

Celtics fans should hope the Clips finish just outside the playoffs.

It's not likely, but it is far more possible today than a month ago.

Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2012, 11:16:49 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Wonder if there'd be a logical trade in our hypothetical. Clearly Jordan commands a decent amount of value.

Maybe Jordan to the Blazers for Matthews and Batum, resign K-Mart
Perhaps, Josh Smith.
CP3, Josh Smith, and Griffin for a D'Antoni team would be impressive.

Eh, not crazy about the idea of pairing Smith and Griffin. They've got a lot of similarities, both good and bad. I don't think the spacing Smith creates offensively balances out how undersized they'd be defensively.
Smith is the same size or bigger than Marion

Griffin is very comparable to a young Amar'e as well

Marion/Amar'e with a top flight point guard worked I don't see why Smith/Griffin with CP3 couldn't. The biggest issue is that I'm not sure mentally Josh Smith can play the same sort of defensive utility man that Marion was for those teams. But then again CP3 isn't the same liability Nash was so that makes things easier too.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 11:21:55 AM by Fafnir »

Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2012, 11:26:24 AM »

Offline mgent

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Wonder if there'd be a logical trade in our hypothetical. Clearly Jordan commands a decent amount of value.

Maybe Jordan to the Blazers for Matthews and Batum, resign K-Mart
Perhaps, Josh Smith.
CP3, Josh Smith, and Griffin for a D'Antoni team would be impressive.

Eh, not crazy about the idea of pairing Smith and Griffin. They've got a lot of similarities, both good and bad. I don't think the spacing Smith creates offensively balances out how undersized they'd be defensively.
Smith is the same size or bigger than Marion

Griffin is very comparable to a young Amar'e as well

Marion/Amar'e with a top flight point guard worked I don't see why Smith/Griffin with CP3 couldn't. The biggest issue is that I'm not sure mentally Josh Smith can play the same sort of defensive utility man that Marion was for those teams. But then again CP3 isn't the same liability Nash was so that makes things easier too.
So would Griffin's rebounding at the center position.
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Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2012, 11:26:40 AM »

Offline Army_of_One_Nation

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To be fair to Vinny Del Negro; he's completely incompetent.

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Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2012, 11:37:36 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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It doesn't matter much if they miss the playoffs or not, each spot they drop in the standings is one spot the C's pick moves up.  So, their continued losing is good for the C's regardless.  If they do miss the playoffs, their odds of winning a top 3 spot in the lottery (and thereby the C's not getting their pick), will probably by like 2-3%
Expected value wise we want the Clippers pick to be in the lottery, the big jump in the picks value is worth a small chance it ends up in the top 3.

Exactly.

Celtics fans should hope the Clips finish just outside the playoffs.

It's not likely, but it is far more possible today than a month ago.

It is *extremely* unlikely. There are four teams below the Clips right now. Suppose each of them has a 40% chance of passing the Clips by the end of the year.

The Clips only miss the playoffs if ALL of those teams pass them. This will happen with a probability equal to 0.4*0.4*0.4*0.4=0.025.

In other words, around 2.5%.

I see it as more likely that the Celtics, despite being 3 games ahead of NY and Mil, will miss the playoffs. This is because only two teams need to pass them.

If NY and Mil each have a 25% chance of passing the C's (I picked a lower number because of the greater gap in records), then the C's have a chance of missing equal to 0.25*0.25=0.0625. Around 6%.

You can nit-pick about the numbers, but they illustrate the point: when only two teams need to pass you, it is easier to miss the playoffs than if four teams need to pass you.

Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2012, 12:02:52 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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It doesn't matter much if they miss the playoffs or not, each spot they drop in the standings is one spot the C's pick moves up.  So, their continued losing is good for the C's regardless.  If they do miss the playoffs, their odds of winning a top 3 spot in the lottery (and thereby the C's not getting their pick), will probably by like 2-3%
Expected value wise we want the Clippers pick to be in the lottery, the big jump in the picks value is worth a small chance it ends up in the top 3.

Exactly.

Celtics fans should hope the Clips finish just outside the playoffs.

It's not likely, but it is far more possible today than a month ago.

It is *extremely* unlikely. There are four teams below the Clips right now. Suppose each of them has a 40% chance of passing the Clips by the end of the year.

The Clips only miss the playoffs if ALL of those teams pass them. This will happen with a probability equal to 0.4*0.4*0.4*0.4=0.025.

In other words, around 2.5%.

I see it as more likely that the Celtics, despite being 3 games ahead of NY and Mil, will miss the playoffs. This is because only two teams need to pass them.

If NY and Mil each have a 25% chance of passing the C's (I picked a lower number because of the greater gap in records), then the C's have a chance of missing equal to 0.25*0.25=0.0625. Around 6%.
This analysis is flawed because the chances of each team passing the Clippers and/or Celtics are not independent variables.

Instead they are dependent variables that are heavily correlated upon the Clippers/Celtics own performance in future games.

You can nit-pick about the numbers, but they illustrate the point: when only two teams need to pass you, it is easier to miss the playoffs than if four teams need to pass you.
This is true, based on the two easiest to find projection systems the Clippers only have a 3% (BBall reference) and 15% (Hollinger) chance of missing the playoffs.

Meanwhilre the C's have a 23% (Bball reference) and 34% (Hollinger) chance of missing the playoffs. I worked through the numbers on Hollingers 9 teams fighting for playoff spots, it really is weird to see 3 teams projected as having roughly 65% chance to make the playoffs due to a projected 3 way tie for 8th at the momemnt.

Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2012, 12:35:59 PM »

Offline jgod213

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Update on the situation in Lob-city:

Bill Simmons (twitter):
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Heard today that Vinny Del Negro is on super-thin, could-go-any-day ice. A blowout loss in OKC tonight won't exactly help.

This from the LA Times:
 
Quote
Vinny Del Negro was mad — mad enough to be heard yelling at his Clippers in the locker room after the game, mad enough to admit to the media that he expressed his anger at his players. The Clippers coach used words like "approach," "compete" and "defense" in his emphatic message after the Clippers dropped a 114-91 game to the Oklahoma City Thunder on Wednesday night at Chesapeake Energy Arena.

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Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2012, 12:37:20 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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It is *extremely* unlikely. There are four teams below the Clips right now. Suppose each of them has a 40% chance of passing the Clips by the end of the year.

The Clips only miss the playoffs if ALL of those teams pass them. This will happen with a probability equal to 0.4*0.4*0.4*0.4=0.025.

In other words, around 2.5%.

I see it as more likely that the Celtics, despite being 3 games ahead of NY and Mil, will miss the playoffs. This is because only two teams need to pass them.

If NY and Mil each have a 25% chance of passing the C's (I picked a lower number because of the greater gap in records), then the C's have a chance of missing equal to 0.25*0.25=0.0625. Around 6%.
This analysis is flawed because the chances of each team passing the Clippers and/or Celtics are not independent variables.

Instead they are dependent variables that are heavily correlated upon the Clippers/Celtics own performance in future games.

Well, if you're going to be picky then what you say is "flawed." What creates the interdependence is the fact that the teams trying to pass the Clips/C's play each other, and the Clips (or Celtics).

You could examine the impact of the interdependence by looking at how often the teams involved play each other.

Just asserting that there will be a "heavy" correlation is "flawed" too, and so is the statement that the correlation depends on performance, which can only be measured after the fact. It depends on how often the teams match up with each other.

The more games the four teams trying to pass the Clips play against each other, the greater the probability that the Clips make it, because any win for one team is a loss for another.

Since ESPN isn't paying me a salary, I made the independence assumption to save my work day. I did think about it when picking the 25% and 40% numbers, though.

All of this is less of a factor for the Celtics, because the Knicks and Bucks will play each other and the Celtics less often.

Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2012, 12:48:56 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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But Boris, you're just giving numbers out equally. The difference between the chances of the Mavericks and the Rockets falling out of playoff contention are significantly different.

Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2012, 12:52:35 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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But Boris, you're just giving numbers out equally. The difference between the chances of the Mavericks and the Rockets falling out of playoff contention are significantly different.

That's true. I tried to pick a round number that wouldn't be too wrong overall.

But again, I was just trying to show that the number of teams below you can be really important when thinking about the chances of missing the playoffs. That's all.

Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2012, 12:53:12 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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But Boris, you're just giving numbers out equally. The difference between the chances of the Mavericks and the Rockets falling out of playoff contention are significantly different.

True that, Kyle Lowry will be back soon. CHAMPIONSHIPPPP

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Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2012, 01:11:31 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Yeah I'm thinking about all the moving parts too much so my verbage was inaccurate. Modeling the various playoff scenarios is really something monte carlos are for....

The Clippers play other "contenders" (for the playoffs) an awful lot, simply due to there being 3 teams currently out of the playoffs that could be the final team that'd need to push them out in addition to 3 teams chasing them in the standings.

The C's play the Knicks once more and the Bucks twice more (counting tonight). And the Knicks/Bucks play each other twice.

Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2012, 01:12:02 PM »

Offline snively

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Please implode Clippers: we deserve some good fortune after the murderer's row of season-ending injuries to our big men KG/Powe/Perk/Shaq/Green/JO/Wilcox.
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Re: Clippers in the lottery?
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2012, 01:25:46 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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But Boris, you're just giving numbers out equally. The difference between the chances of the Mavericks and the Rockets falling out of playoff contention are significantly different.

That's true. I tried to pick a round number that wouldn't be too wrong overall.

But again, I was just trying to show that the number of teams below you can be really important when thinking about the chances of missing the playoffs. That's all.

Fair enough, I just think the result you provided was way too drastic.