Poll

How many championships do the Los Angeles Lakers have?

16
15 (62.5%)
11
9 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Author Topic: Championship Count  (Read 8057 times)

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Re: Championship Count
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2012, 11:40:42 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Celtics moved about 10 feet from the Boston Garden to the FleetCenter.

So should it still be 17 titles even though they moved to a different location?

Where do you draw the line?  City limits?  State borders? Region?  It's ridiculous.

It's by the organization.  16 for the Lakers, like it or not. 

Funny that we only hear an outcry about the Lakers titles but never about the Warriors or Sixers titles.

Could it be because they're so close to the Celtics?  Hmmm...I sure think so.


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Re: Championship Count
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2012, 11:43:17 AM »

Offline RMO

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The Wizards I would say yes just because they're the same organization in the same location.  Their name change was to promote a more family friendly product rather than one that might be perceived to promote violence.

Not necessarily, because the Bullets won their title while in Baltimore which is not DC, then played in Landover, MD for years after before actually moving into DC.

I should clarify.  I was talking about the 1978 title for the Washington Bullets and whether the Wizards should be able to claim that one.  For the 1948(?) title when the Bullets were in Baltimore I would say no.

Re: Championship Count
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2012, 11:45:54 AM »

Offline Employee8

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The Wizards I would say yes just because they're the same organization in the same location.  Their name change was to promote a more family friendly product rather than one that might be perceived to promote violence.

Not necessarily, because the Bullets won their title while in Baltimore which is not DC, then played in Landover, MD for years after before actually moving into DC. Which leads to another kink in the whole connecting teams to their cities. For instance, the Warriors have been based in both SF (during the 60s) and Oakland (where they won their only West Coast championship in the 70s). As anyone who has been there knows, Oakland and San Francisco are really different cities. Should the Warriors move back into SF as they have explored...Do they lose their title won in Oakland? Most of us would say that's absurd. In this case, I'd argue because they are in the same Census defined Metropolitan Statistical Area or media market (take your pick), we would not really have considered them to have moved. But in the case of the Bullets ne Wizards, it gets murkier. They violate my MSA rule, but not the TV market rule.

Or another hypothetical closer to most Boston sports fans. What if the Pats had or did move to Hartford, CT. Would they be stripped of their history? I mean, Hartford and Foxborough are inarguably different cities.  Again, most would likely say no, for the same rationale as the Bullets/Wizards.

My take on this is, give the Lakers franchise their 16 championships. I think its really up to the franchise and the city they are/were based in to decide how to handle the legacy. I think the Seattle claiming the rights to the Sonics franchise history settlement was a great one.

Good points.  I'm not sure what to make of the SF/Oakland dilemma but like I said earlier in this thread, it's what I make sense of cities, names and their associated championships.  Ultimately, it goes back to the fans.  How do they feel about the Warriors winning their title in Oakland?  Did the San Franciscoians erupt in cheers when the Warriors won it?  Do they claim them as their own?

As for the Patriots- they started out with the Boston Patriots and then changed their name to New England Patriots to appeal to a greater market.  So if they had made the move to Hartford, they're still within the region (Connecticut is a part of New England) and admittedly as a fan of the team, I would still consider it the same team.  However, I'm not sure what to make of it if it was the Boston Patriots becoming the Hartford Patriots.  I would still support the team but divide the number of championships between the two.  Because what if later down the road, Boston gets another NFL team?

I personally don't think city name changes to appeal to a broader market (Anaheim Angels to Los Angeles Angeles, San Francisco to Golden State, Minneapolis to Minnesota, Florida Marlins to Miami Marlins) affect their title count.  If Boston changes their name to New England Celtics, they're still the same team to me and they play in the same location and cater to the same fans.

What grills me is nobody in LA rooted for the Lakers when they were in Minneapolis.  Nobody in LA except for basketball purists gave a hoot when Mikan was the most dominating player.  Then they're handed the Lakers with an additional note that says "by the way, this team won 5 championships in the years prior."

Re: Championship Count
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2012, 11:53:54 AM »

Offline Employee8

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Celtics moved about 10 feet from the Boston Garden to the FleetCenter.

So should it still be 17 titles even though they moved to a different location?

Where do you draw the line?  City limits?  State borders? Region?  It's ridiculous.

It's by the organization.  16 for the Lakers, like it or not. 

Funny that we only hear an outcry about the Lakers titles but never about the Warriors or Sixers titles.

Could it be because they're so close to the Celtics?  Hmmm...I sure think so.

You're absolutely right.  The LAKERS have 16 championships.  The CELTICS have 17 championships.  And you're right, this comes up because the Lakers are close to the Celtics so I'm giving this further review.  And it looks like we're discussing the Warriors and Sixers titles now.  Baltimore/Washington are coming into play now.  I'm interested in all of them.

But it's a fluid subject.  This is easy if you simply go by team names, which makes everything black and white and easy to follow.  But when you dig deeper, not so clear anymore.  This is the kind of discussion where people go by their own rules.  Everyone wins here.

Apparently you and wdeehli invented this "our legacy is at stake! we must do something to make ourselves feel better!" outcry that nobody is making.  The Lakers are a fabulous organization that gives themselves a little too much credit is what I'm saying here.

Re: Championship Count
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2012, 11:57:53 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Celtics moved about 10 feet from the Boston Garden to the FleetCenter.

So should it still be 17 titles even though they moved to a different location?

Where do you draw the line?  City limits?  State borders? Region?  It's ridiculous.

It's by the organization.  16 for the Lakers, like it or not. 

Funny that we only hear an outcry about the Lakers titles but never about the Warriors or Sixers titles.

Could it be because they're so close to the Celtics?  Hmmm...I sure think so.

You're absolutely right.  The LAKERS have 16 championships.  The CELTICS have 17 championships.  And you're right, this comes up because the Lakers are close to the Celtics so I'm giving this further review.  And it looks like we're discussing the Warriors and Sixers titles now.  Baltimore/Washington are coming into play now.  I'm interested in all of them.

But it's a fluid subject.  This is easy if you simply go by team names, which makes everything black and white and easy to follow.  But when you dig deeper, not so clear anymore.  This is the kind of discussion where people go by their own rules.  Everyone wins here.

Apparently you and wdeehli invented this "our legacy is at stake! we must do something to make ourselves feel better!" outcry that nobody is making.  The Lakers are a fabulous organization that gives themselves a little too much credit is what I'm saying here.

I didn't invent it, just reiterated it. 


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Re: Championship Count
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2012, 12:02:06 PM »

Offline Employee8

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Celtics moved about 10 feet from the Boston Garden to the FleetCenter.

So should it still be 17 titles even though they moved to a different location?

Where do you draw the line?  City limits?  State borders? Region?  It's ridiculous.

It's by the organization.  16 for the Lakers, like it or not. 

Funny that we only hear an outcry about the Lakers titles but never about the Warriors or Sixers titles.

Could it be because they're so close to the Celtics?  Hmmm...I sure think so.

You're absolutely right.  The LAKERS have 16 championships.  The CELTICS have 17 championships.  And you're right, this comes up because the Lakers are close to the Celtics so I'm giving this further review.  And it looks like we're discussing the Warriors and Sixers titles now.  Baltimore/Washington are coming into play now.  I'm interested in all of them.

But it's a fluid subject.  This is easy if you simply go by team names, which makes everything black and white and easy to follow.  But when you dig deeper, not so clear anymore.  This is the kind of discussion where people go by their own rules.  Everyone wins here.

Apparently you and wdeehli invented this "our legacy is at stake! we must do something to make ourselves feel better!" outcry that nobody is making.  The Lakers are a fabulous organization that gives themselves a little too much credit is what I'm saying here.

I didn't invent it, just reiterated it. 

 ::)

Re: Championship Count
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2012, 12:11:18 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Celtics moved about 10 feet from the Boston Garden to the FleetCenter.

So should it still be 17 titles even though they moved to a different location?

Where do you draw the line?  City limits?  State borders? Region?  It's ridiculous.

It's by the organization.  16 for the Lakers, like it or not. 

Funny that we only hear an outcry about the Lakers titles but never about the Warriors or Sixers titles.

Could it be because they're so close to the Celtics?  Hmmm...I sure think so.

You're absolutely right.  The LAKERS have 16 championships.  The CELTICS have 17 championships.  And you're right, this comes up because the Lakers are close to the Celtics so I'm giving this further review.  And it looks like we're discussing the Warriors and Sixers titles now.  Baltimore/Washington are coming into play now.  I'm interested in all of them.

But it's a fluid subject.  This is easy if you simply go by team names, which makes everything black and white and easy to follow.  But when you dig deeper, not so clear anymore.  This is the kind of discussion where people go by their own rules.  Everyone wins here.

Apparently you and wdeehli invented this "our legacy is at stake! we must do something to make ourselves feel better!" outcry that nobody is making.  The Lakers are a fabulous organization that gives themselves a little too much credit is what I'm saying here.

I didn't invent it, just reiterated it. 

 ::)

Sure, you can roll your eyes. 

Shockingly, not everyone is going to share your sentiment/viewpoint on this topic. 

The NBA, itself, recognizes 16 titles for the Lakers.  That source is good enough as any in my book rather than trying to come up with arbitrary and subjective arguments in contrast to it. 


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Re: Championship Count
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2012, 12:16:58 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I voted 16.

Whatever.

If it floats Laker fans boats, then the count is 17-16 BOS.



I've always sat on the sidelines of such arguments or debates - regardless of the blog I was on (SS & R or here). For some reason, it's always been a contentious debate.

Personally, I think LA owes us TWO CHAMPIONSHIPS for the way we took them out back to the shed in Game 6 2008. IMO, that game ALONE made up for the championshp opportunities lost over the years. ;D

It's extremely unlikely that BOTH franchises make it back to the Finals this June, but I'd LOVE to have one final grudgematch with them.

Re: Championship Count
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2012, 12:29:17 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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In my mind, it comes down to organizations, rather than cities.  The Lakers have 16 titles as a franchise. 

It's like an article I read once, that suggested that the Celtics have only won 13 titles, because the "real" Celtics franchise was swapped with the Clippers back in 1978 in an ownership + players swap.  While it's interesting to talk about, to me it's all nonsense.  The Lakers have 16 titles, and we have 17.


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Re: Championship Count
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2012, 12:33:17 PM »

Offline Employee8

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In my mind, it comes down to organizations, rather than cities.  The Lakers have 16 titles as a franchise. 

It's like an article I read once, that suggested that the Celtics have only won 13 titles, because the "real" Celtics franchise was swapped with the Clippers back in 1978 in an ownership + players swap.  While it's interesting to talk about, to me it's all nonsense.  The Lakers have 16 titles, and we have 17.

No way! Really?  Any chance you remember where the article was from?

Re: Championship Count
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2012, 12:37:12 PM »

Offline DavorCroatiaFan

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I dont have a problem with Lakers championchips in 1949,50,52,53 and 54.
But i have problem with championchips in 2000, 2002 and 2010 where referees in game 7 f-ed Blazers, Kings and Celtics.
So for me its not 17-11, its not 17-16, but 18-13.
But sadly record book says 17-16.
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Re: Championship Count
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2012, 12:39:28 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Celtics 17, Lakers 11.

The Minneapolis Lakers orchestrated five titles.
The Los Angeles Lakers have orchestrated 11 titles.

The Boston Celtics orchestrated 17 titles.

If the Boston Celtics become the Burlington Celtics, the ticker tape starts over.

For me it's the city.

Re: Championship Count
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2012, 12:39:45 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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In my mind, it comes down to organizations, rather than cities.  The Lakers have 16 titles as a franchise. 

It's like an article I read once, that suggested that the Celtics have only won 13 titles, because the "real" Celtics franchise was swapped with the Clippers back in 1978 in an ownership + players swap.  While it's interesting to talk about, to me it's all nonsense.  The Lakers have 16 titles, and we have 17.

No way! Really?  Any chance you remember where the article was from?

I couldn't tell you; it was from a couple of years ago, and was a Celtics fan blog.  Other than that, no idea.  The basis of it was that the Celtics and Clippers essentially swapped franchises, and that the original Boston Celtics are actually playing in Los Angeles.


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Re: Championship Count
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2012, 12:53:11 PM »

Offline incoherent

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An old man who spent his whole life in Boston sits on a bench next to another old man who spent his whole life in LA.

Man from Boston says "I've seen my Celtics win 17 championships". 

Man from LA says "I've seen my Lakers win 11 championships"

It comes down the fans and who has the right to celebrate what. The LA fans have no right to claim those 5 championships at all.

Re: Championship Count
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2012, 01:05:10 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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But it's a fluid subject.  This is easy if you simply go by team names, which makes everything black and white and easy to follow.  But when you dig deeper, not so clear anymore.  This is the kind of discussion where people go by their own rules.  Everyone wins here.

I've made the '11', not '16' argument before, but then they typically respond with the "since the league merger/legit integration" argument, which also makes a lot of sense.

Pretty much in my mind, if you want to say 'you lose those Minny titles', its fair game to question just how relevant those Russell titles were when measured against the context of the post-merger NBA.

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