PG's Do NOT Lead a Team to a Championship

[EJPLAYA]

Let's be real here folks. Rondo is a very nice player and one of the better PG's in the league. He has a lot of areas where he is best in the league, but a few where he really struggles. He is by no means a complete PG who would be considered an all-time great. That being said, he is a nice trading chip to build a contender. Let's not forget the Champions of the past years and who led their teams:

Nowitzki, Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc...

The only PG that arguably led their team to a Championship, because I don't think Magic really counts at the PG spot, is Isaiah Thomas. Rondo is no Isaiah Thomas. He doesn't have the scoring ability to consistently take over a game. Isaiah was a Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time consistently throughout his career. Rondo, while very good, isn't anywhere near that level.

If the goal truly is a Championship, then putting all your eggs in the "Let Rondo be the cornerstone of this team" basket is a horrible plan. Championships are won with all-stars at the 3,4, and/or 5 spots. Not with PG's with huge holes in their game.

Why not face the fact that we are not going to win with this team. While Ray, Pierce, and KG at one point were championship material, they all aren't now. KG isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up with JO not healthy enough to be dependable. Rather than spend this year and next pretending we have a shot, let's ensure that we won't wallow in another 20 years of mediocrity by using Rondo to give us a chance at maintaining a winning team and with a little luck contend again. If not, 2 years from now we are likely to be the Washington Wizards...

  Trying to skew your argument by saying Magic doesn't count as a point guard is fairly nonsensical. Which point guard duties did he not do? Aside from that, is anyone claiming that Rondo is going to be the cornerstone going forward? How about a building block, one of the 2-3 good/great players you need to win a title? And someone better phone KG and tell him that he  isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up. We're 3rd or so in defense right now. Considering the fact that we were in the 20s after a dozen games or so, I'd wager that over the last month or so our defense has been significantly better than any other defense in the league.

You make Rondo, or any other PG 6 foot 9, and you might be right about Magic, but he was a PG only because of how deep that team was. You can put PG in front of Pierce's name as well and I would argue we do better in the half court, but that doesn't make him a PG. I seem to recall one of those Championships of Magic's was won with him playing the Center spot. Grow Rondo 9-10 inches and give him Magic's scoring ability and we can discuss that.

As far as KG goes, we are playing great defense in spite of KG. He has been horrible compared to the KG of 2008. He's rebounding at a 30% lower clip than his career avg.  His steals are 50% lower than career avg. His blocks are down 30%. Of the big 3, KG has by far the most miles and it shows.

KG's minutes are way down from his career average. His rebound rate has been pretty steady since he got to boston in 07-08. Also, he is blocking shots this year at a rate not seen since his days in minesota.

Clearly KG has lost some athletic ability, but in his prime, KG was an absolute freak athletically.

Now he is still above average athletically compared to other players his size. He is still very effective in the Celtics defensive schemes and he's even shown me some new tricks by playing some dang good one on one defense on centers this year.

He is still an elite defensive player.

KG's minutes are down 15% from his career avg this season. His steals down 50%, rebounds and blocks down 30%. How do you not label that as his stats being down considerably in spite of his reduced minutes. If his minutes were down 30% then you'd have a point, but the stats don't lie. In key defensive numbers he is down dramatically even with his reduced time. KG was definitely an elite beast defensively in the past and arguably one of the greatest ever, however he is nowhere near that level and now plays at a "good" level. In 08 he was a much better player than Rondo. Not anymore. That's kind of the whole point of the thread.

Well you are exaggerating the decline of KG to make your point.

He has clearly lost some of his rebounding ability but his defense is still elite.

Steals and blocks can be very misleading to judge a defender.

Avery Bradley averages .4 spg and I think he is one of the best defenders at his position in the league, if not the best.

What I am saying is that he has regressed from top 2-3 EVER defensively at his position to top 5 in the league at his position.

You're original post had him pegged as washed up as a defender. At least thats what I read with the tone of your post.

I'm exaggerating his decline by giving you actual defensive numbers?! You are reading into my TONE of the post now?! From the get go I said KG's elite defensive ability is a thing of the past and he isn't near the defender he was. The stats back that up. You can see him out there and confirm that is true. His body won't let him play like he once did. Not his fault. I think he is doing what he can and is still a good defender. Not good enough though with no big center presence like Perk was to back him up. So now you have a good PF in KG, no Center presence, and Ray and PP. That isn't enough to allow us to contend. Even with very good bench pickups in Bass and Pietrus. We are a reasonably good team. Just not contenders.

Yeah but the stats do not back that up. Steals and blocks are not the only defensive metrics.

Can someone help me here? There are plenty of stats that paint the picture that KG still has humongous impact defensively. Top 5 in the NBA even at his position.

Also the naked eye tells me he still is a great rotating, lane disrupting, basket defending, and versatile defender.

No, the stats say he isn't. You can't dismiss facts that point to a big decline in his production and say the stats don't back it up. What you are trying to counter with are things that they don't measure. If you have defensive statistics that show that he is the beast still you say he is, then what are they? You don't have them. If he were disrupting the lane like he used to then his steals wouldn't have dropped like they have. He isn't as good as he has been. He's old. It's not that big of a deal, however facts are facts. He is a good defender at this point in his career, not the beast he was 5 yrs ago. There's nothing wrong with that!

[Greenbean]

Let's be real here folks. Rondo is a very nice player and one of the better PG's in the league. He has a lot of areas where he is best in the league, but a few where he really struggles. He is by no means a complete PG who would be considered an all-time great. That being said, he is a nice trading chip to build a contender. Let's not forget the Champions of the past years and who led their teams:

Nowitzki, Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc...

The only PG that arguably led their team to a Championship, because I don't think Magic really counts at the PG spot, is Isaiah Thomas. Rondo is no Isaiah Thomas. He doesn't have the scoring ability to consistently take over a game. Isaiah was a Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time consistently throughout his career. Rondo, while very good, isn't anywhere near that level.

If the goal truly is a Championship, then putting all your eggs in the "Let Rondo be the cornerstone of this team" basket is a horrible plan. Championships are won with all-stars at the 3,4, and/or 5 spots. Not with PG's with huge holes in their game.

Why not face the fact that we are not going to win with this team. While Ray, Pierce, and KG at one point were championship material, they all aren't now. KG isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up with JO not healthy enough to be dependable. Rather than spend this year and next pretending we have a shot, let's ensure that we won't wallow in another 20 years of mediocrity by using Rondo to give us a chance at maintaining a winning team and with a little luck contend again. If not, 2 years from now we are likely to be the Washington Wizards...

  Trying to skew your argument by saying Magic doesn't count as a point guard is fairly nonsensical. Which point guard duties did he not do? Aside from that, is anyone claiming that Rondo is going to be the cornerstone going forward? How about a building block, one of the 2-3 good/great players you need to win a title? And someone better phone KG and tell him that he  isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up. We're 3rd or so in defense right now. Considering the fact that we were in the 20s after a dozen games or so, I'd wager that over the last month or so our defense has been significantly better than any other defense in the league.

You make Rondo, or any other PG 6 foot 9, and you might be right about Magic, but he was a PG only because of how deep that team was. You can put PG in front of Pierce's name as well and I would argue we do better in the half court, but that doesn't make him a PG. I seem to recall one of those Championships of Magic's was won with him playing the Center spot. Grow Rondo 9-10 inches and give him Magic's scoring ability and we can discuss that.

As far as KG goes, we are playing great defense in spite of KG. He has been horrible compared to the KG of 2008. He's rebounding at a 30% lower clip than his career avg.  His steals are 50% lower than career avg. His blocks are down 30%. Of the big 3, KG has by far the most miles and it shows.

KG's minutes are way down from his career average. His rebound rate has been pretty steady since he got to boston in 07-08. Also, he is blocking shots this year at a rate not seen since his days in minesota.

Clearly KG has lost some athletic ability, but in his prime, KG was an absolute freak athletically.

Now he is still above average athletically compared to other players his size. He is still very effective in the Celtics defensive schemes and he's even shown me some new tricks by playing some dang good one on one defense on centers this year.

He is still an elite defensive player.

KG's minutes are down 15% from his career avg this season. His steals down 50%, rebounds and blocks down 30%. How do you not label that as his stats being down considerably in spite of his reduced minutes. If his minutes were down 30% then you'd have a point, but the stats don't lie. In key defensive numbers he is down dramatically even with his reduced time. KG was definitely an elite beast defensively in the past and arguably one of the greatest ever, however he is nowhere near that level and now plays at a "good" level. In 08 he was a much better player than Rondo. Not anymore. That's kind of the whole point of the thread.

Well you are exaggerating the decline of KG to make your point.

He has clearly lost some of his rebounding ability but his defense is still elite.

Steals and blocks can be very misleading to judge a defender.

Avery Bradley averages .4 spg and I think he is one of the best defenders at his position in the league, if not the best.

What I am saying is that he has regressed from top 2-3 EVER defensively at his position to top 5 in the league at his position.

You're original post had him pegged as washed up as a defender. At least thats what I read with the tone of your post.

I'm exaggerating his decline by giving you actual defensive numbers?! You are reading into my TONE of the post now?! From the get go I said KG's elite defensive ability is a thing of the past and he isn't near the defender he was. The stats back that up. You can see him out there and confirm that is true. His body won't let him play like he once did. Not his fault. I think he is doing what he can and is still a good defender. Not good enough though with no big center presence like Perk was to back him up. So now you have a good PF in KG, no Center presence, and Ray and PP. That isn't enough to allow us to contend. Even with very good bench pickups in Bass and Pietrus. We are a reasonably good team. Just not contenders.

Yeah but the stats do not back that up. Steals and blocks are not the only defensive metrics.

Can someone help me here? There are plenty of stats that paint the picture that KG still has humongous impact defensively. Top 5 in the NBA even at his position.

Also the naked eye tells me he still is a great rotating, lane disrupting, basket defending, and versatile defender.

No, the stats say he isn't. You can't dismiss facts that point to a big decline in his production and say the stats don't back it up. What you are trying to counter with are things that they don't measure. If you have defensive statistics that show that he is the beast still you say he is, then what are they? You don't have them. If he were disrupting the lane like he used to then his steals wouldn't have dropped like they have. He isn't as good as he has been. He's old. It's not that big of a deal, however facts are facts. He is a good defender at this point in his career, not the beast he was 5 yrs ago. There's nothing wrong with that!

Defensive rating which is points allowed per 100 possesions.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

This year he is at 94 which is PHENOMENAL. On par with his DPOY rating from 07-08 and tied for second best year in his career.

There are a TON of other stats like this out there.

Dennis Rodman averaged .7 bpg and .6 spg for his career and he is regarded as one of the best defensive pf's of all time. Rebounding aside too...an amazing defender.

[EJPLAYA]

Let's be real here folks. Rondo is a very nice player and one of the better PG's in the league. He has a lot of areas where he is best in the league, but a few where he really struggles. He is by no means a complete PG who would be considered an all-time great. That being said, he is a nice trading chip to build a contender. Let's not forget the Champions of the past years and who led their teams:

Nowitzki, Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc...

The only PG that arguably led their team to a Championship, because I don't think Magic really counts at the PG spot, is Isaiah Thomas. Rondo is no Isaiah Thomas. He doesn't have the scoring ability to consistently take over a game. Isaiah was a Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time consistently throughout his career. Rondo, while very good, isn't anywhere near that level.

If the goal truly is a Championship, then putting all your eggs in the "Let Rondo be the cornerstone of this team" basket is a horrible plan. Championships are won with all-stars at the 3,4, and/or 5 spots. Not with PG's with huge holes in their game.

Why not face the fact that we are not going to win with this team. While Ray, Pierce, and KG at one point were championship material, they all aren't now. KG isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up with JO not healthy enough to be dependable. Rather than spend this year and next pretending we have a shot, let's ensure that we won't wallow in another 20 years of mediocrity by using Rondo to give us a chance at maintaining a winning team and with a little luck contend again. If not, 2 years from now we are likely to be the Washington Wizards...

  Trying to skew your argument by saying Magic doesn't count as a point guard is fairly nonsensical. Which point guard duties did he not do? Aside from that, is anyone claiming that Rondo is going to be the cornerstone going forward? How about a building block, one of the 2-3 good/great players you need to win a title? And someone better phone KG and tell him that he  isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up. We're 3rd or so in defense right now. Considering the fact that we were in the 20s after a dozen games or so, I'd wager that over the last month or so our defense has been significantly better than any other defense in the league.

You make Rondo, or any other PG 6 foot 9, and you might be right about Magic, but he was a PG only because of how deep that team was. You can put PG in front of Pierce's name as well and I would argue we do better in the half court, but that doesn't make him a PG. I seem to recall one of those Championships of Magic's was won with him playing the Center spot. Grow Rondo 9-10 inches and give him Magic's scoring ability and we can discuss that.

As far as KG goes, we are playing great defense in spite of KG. He has been horrible compared to the KG of 2008. He's rebounding at a 30% lower clip than his career avg.  His steals are 50% lower than career avg. His blocks are down 30%. Of the big 3, KG has by far the most miles and it shows.

KG's minutes are way down from his career average. His rebound rate has been pretty steady since he got to boston in 07-08. Also, he is blocking shots this year at a rate not seen since his days in minesota.

Clearly KG has lost some athletic ability, but in his prime, KG was an absolute freak athletically.

Now he is still above average athletically compared to other players his size. He is still very effective in the Celtics defensive schemes and he's even shown me some new tricks by playing some dang good one on one defense on centers this year.

He is still an elite defensive player.

KG's minutes are down 15% from his career avg this season. His steals down 50%, rebounds and blocks down 30%. How do you not label that as his stats being down considerably in spite of his reduced minutes. If his minutes were down 30% then you'd have a point, but the stats don't lie. In key defensive numbers he is down dramatically even with his reduced time. KG was definitely an elite beast defensively in the past and arguably one of the greatest ever, however he is nowhere near that level and now plays at a "good" level. In 08 he was a much better player than Rondo. Not anymore. That's kind of the whole point of the thread.

Well you are exaggerating the decline of KG to make your point.

He has clearly lost some of his rebounding ability but his defense is still elite.

Steals and blocks can be very misleading to judge a defender.

Avery Bradley averages .4 spg and I think he is one of the best defenders at his position in the league, if not the best.

What I am saying is that he has regressed from top 2-3 EVER defensively at his position to top 5 in the league at his position.

You're original post had him pegged as washed up as a defender. At least thats what I read with the tone of your post.

I'm exaggerating his decline by giving you actual defensive numbers?! You are reading into my TONE of the post now?! From the get go I said KG's elite defensive ability is a thing of the past and he isn't near the defender he was. The stats back that up. You can see him out there and confirm that is true. His body won't let him play like he once did. Not his fault. I think he is doing what he can and is still a good defender. Not good enough though with no big center presence like Perk was to back him up. So now you have a good PF in KG, no Center presence, and Ray and PP. That isn't enough to allow us to contend. Even with very good bench pickups in Bass and Pietrus. We are a reasonably good team. Just not contenders.

Yeah but the stats do not back that up. Steals and blocks are not the only defensive metrics.

Can someone help me here? There are plenty of stats that paint the picture that KG still has humongous impact defensively. Top 5 in the NBA even at his position.

Also the naked eye tells me he still is a great rotating, lane disrupting, basket defending, and versatile defender.

No, the stats say he isn't. You can't dismiss facts that point to a big decline in his production and say the stats don't back it up. What you are trying to counter with are things that they don't measure. If you have defensive statistics that show that he is the beast still you say he is, then what are they? You don't have them. If he were disrupting the lane like he used to then his steals wouldn't have dropped like they have. He isn't as good as he has been. He's old. It's not that big of a deal, however facts are facts. He is a good defender at this point in his career, not the beast he was 5 yrs ago. There's nothing wrong with that!

Defensive rating which is points allowed per 100 possesions.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

This year he is at 94 which is PHENOMENAL. On par with his DPOY rating from 07-08 and tied for second best year in his career.

There are a TON of other stats like this out there.

Dennis Rodman averaged .7 bpg and .6 spg for his career and he is regarded as one of the best defensive pf's of all time. Rebounding aside too...an amazing defender.

Hey, it's okay that you love KG! I don't mind. I love the guy myself. If you want to throw out 1 stat that has a lot more to do with TEAM defensive success than individual and ignore the 3 stats that were specifically HIS production then that's fine. I bet you also thought Rodman in his last season was just as good as in the prime of his career! LOL.

TP to you though for your unshakable support of KG!!! Nothing wrong with that.

[EJPLAYA]

THIS is what our future looks like if Rondo is the centerpiece of our team... Gaudy numbers by him, Losses in the columns...

[ejk3489]

THIS is what our future looks like if Rondo is the centerpiece of our team... Gaudy numbers by him, Losses in the columns...

No, this is what our future looks like if Rondo is surrounded by players way past their prime.

[snively]

THIS is what our future looks like if Rondo is the centerpiece of our team... Gaudy numbers by him, Losses in the columns...

No, this is what our future looks like if Rondo is surrounded by players way past their prime.

Don't forget the rookies/veterans who don't play defense: an awful showing defensively from Wilcox, JJ and Ray tonight. 

[OmarSekou]

THIS is what our future looks like if Rondo is the centerpiece of our team... Gaudy numbers by him, Losses in the columns...

And without him we would be the laughing stock of the league... No numbers by anyone, Wins in the single digits...

It generally takes more than one player to win a game. Rondo did what he had to and then some. No one else helped carry the load. Unless you're trying to make the argument that Rondo's a selfish player and if we try to build around him he'll become a stats hog and keep other guys from developing.

[cman88]

I still dont understand why some of you guys are so anti having an all-star calibar pg for $10million as a BUILDING BLOCK...you gotta start somewhere..and I cant think of a better place to start.

I dont think anyone has said(or plans) he will be the #1 guy...but if danny can get another allstar or two..we might be in business

[EJPLAYA]

THIS is what our future looks like if Rondo is the centerpiece of our team... Gaudy numbers by him, Losses in the columns...

And without him we would be the laughing stock of the league... No numbers by anyone, Wins in the single digits...

It generally takes more than one player to win a game. Rondo did what he had to and then some. No one else helped carry the load. Unless you're trying to make the argument that Rondo's a selfish player and if we try to build around him he'll become a stats hog and keep other guys from developing.

I'm not sure that I would feel a whole lot better with 25 wins each season and perennial losers, so that's not real comforting. Then you stay that way because you're not bad enough to get a high draft pick. You just stay in the lower middle of the pack.

I'm arguing that people's notion of building "around" Rondo with him as our marquis guy is a losing proposition. Unless he's the 3rd best player on the team paired with a couple of in their prime guys at the 3,4, or 5, we are the Washington Wizards. John Wall is a really good PG and they can't beat anyone!

[CelticsFanNC]

  Rondo haters....

Where was Paul Pierce tonight?  Where was Ray Allen?


  Pierce had key turnovers when Doc rested Rondo in the 4th that led directly to Detroit taking a lead the Celtics would never recover from. 

  It you want to blame a single player for this loss, which btw is ludicrous, Pierce should be example A.

  Rondo is the only reason the Celtic's didn't lose by 25.  Rondo and Wilcox came to play tonight among the guys who started.  The other three contributed squat and didn't even defend at their normal level.

[green7]

  Rondo haters....

Where was Paul Pierce tonight?  Where was Ray Allen?


  Pierce had key turnovers when Doc rested Rondo in the 4th that led directly to Detroit taking a lead the Celtics would never recover from. 

  It you want to blame a single player for this loss, which btw is ludicrous, Pierce should be example A.

  Rondo is the only reason the Celtic's didn't lose by 25.  Rondo and Wilcox came to play tonight among the guys who started.  The other three contributed squat and didn't even defend at their normal level.

where was paul pierce in the bulls game? where was pierce in the laker game? where was pierce in the raptors game?

[EJPLAYA]

You're missing the point!! Rondo had a great game tonight, no doubt. They lost! that's what happens when you're best player on the floor is a PG. We aren't going anywhere with this aged group of stars. They just don't have it consistently any more enough to have 2 out of 3 play at an elite level nightly. If they did then Rondo is what we need. So, rather than have us dead in the water for a decade or so, use the only valuable trade chip to get something to begin the rebuilding process!

[Yoki_IsTheName]

You're missing the point!! Rondo had a great game tonight, no doubt. They lost! that's what happens when you're best player on the floor is a PG. We aren't going anywhere with this aged group of stars. They just don't have it consistently any more enough to have 2 out of 3 play at an elite level nightly. If they did then Rondo is what we need. So, rather than have us dead in the water for a decade or so, use the only valuable trade chip to get something to begin the rebuilding process!

How about the reason the PG had to be the best player tonight is because the best player, Pierce didn't show up? Rondo took over because Paul and Ray are missing.