PG's Do NOT Lead a Team to a Championship

[BballTim]

Meanwhile, Rondo continues his pout with the media:

"Silent treatment

Rajon Rondo refused to speak with the media again yesterday. He hasn’t talked with reporters since the loss to Toronto Friday . . ."

I'd say he still has a little work to do before he's any team's leader.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2012/02/15/extensive_travel_plans_await/?page=2

  He's one of the team's leaders, and he has been for a while. If he can be one of the leaders on a team with the big three he can be one on any team.

Im going to have to argue with that one.

From what I have seen, his leadership skills are a work in progress.

There have been many reports that Doc has had alot of trouble getting him to be a leader.

On the floor, sure he leads by example, plays hard etc.

But he is not a vocal/locker room leader from everything I have heard/read. Not very accountable.

Maybe that is changing though right before our eyes. In my opinion, I like that he is silent in the media right now. I think he actually showed some accountability to his teammates by telling Doc he played like crap in TOR and came back in that CHI game with some fire.

I just want to see it consistently.

  Don't argue with me, argue with the team. Doc and the big three have been referring to Rondo as a leader for quite some time.

[ejk3489]

Meanwhile, Rondo continues his pout with the media:

"Silent treatment

Rajon Rondo refused to speak with the media again yesterday. He hasn’t talked with reporters since the loss to Toronto Friday . . ."

I'd say he still has a little work to do before he's any team's leader.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2012/02/15/extensive_travel_plans_await/?page=2

I love how this is only a big deal when Rondo does this. No one else remembers Pierce doing the exact same thing after all the trade rumors about him this year?

[EJPLAYA]

Let's be real here folks. Rondo is a very nice player and one of the better PG's in the league. He has a lot of areas where he is best in the league, but a few where he really struggles. He is by no means a complete PG who would be considered an all-time great. That being said, he is a nice trading chip to build a contender. Let's not forget the Champions of the past years and who led their teams:

Nowitzki, Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc...

The only PG that arguably led their team to a Championship, because I don't think Magic really counts at the PG spot, is Isaiah Thomas. Rondo is no Isaiah Thomas. He doesn't have the scoring ability to consistently take over a game. Isaiah was a Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time consistently throughout his career. Rondo, while very good, isn't anywhere near that level.

If the goal truly is a Championship, then putting all your eggs in the "Let Rondo be the cornerstone of this team" basket is a horrible plan. Championships are won with all-stars at the 3,4, and/or 5 spots. Not with PG's with huge holes in their game.

Why not face the fact that we are not going to win with this team. While Ray, Pierce, and KG at one point were championship material, they all aren't now. KG isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up with JO not healthy enough to be dependable. Rather than spend this year and next pretending we have a shot, let's ensure that we won't wallow in another 20 years of mediocrity by using Rondo to give us a chance at maintaining a winning team and with a little luck contend again. If not, 2 years from now we are likely to be the Washington Wizards...

  Trying to skew your argument by saying Magic doesn't count as a point guard is fairly nonsensical. Which point guard duties did he not do? Aside from that, is anyone claiming that Rondo is going to be the cornerstone going forward? How about a building block, one of the 2-3 good/great players you need to win a title? And someone better phone KG and tell him that he  isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up. We're 3rd or so in defense right now. Considering the fact that we were in the 20s after a dozen games or so, I'd wager that over the last month or so our defense has been significantly better than any other defense in the league.

You make Rondo, or any other PG 6 foot 9, and you might be right about Magic, but he was a PG only because of how deep that team was. You can put PG in front of Pierce's name as well and I would argue we do better in the half court, but that doesn't make him a PG. I seem to recall one of those Championships of Magic's was won with him playing the Center spot. Grow Rondo 9-10 inches and give him Magic's scoring ability and we can discuss that.

As far as KG goes, we are playing great defense in spite of KG. He has been horrible compared to the KG of 2008. He's rebounding at a 30% lower clip than his career avg.  His steals are 50% lower than career avg. His blocks are down 30%. Of the big 3, KG has by far the most miles and it shows.

KG's minutes are way down from his career average. His rebound rate has been pretty steady since he got to boston in 07-08. Also, he is blocking shots this year at a rate not seen since his days in minesota.

Clearly KG has lost some athletic ability, but in his prime, KG was an absolute freak athletically.

Now he is still above average athletically compared to other players his size. He is still very effective in the Celtics defensive schemes and he's even shown me some new tricks by playing some dang good one on one defense on centers this year.

He is still an elite defensive player.

KG's minutes are down 15% from his career avg this season. His steals down 50%, rebounds and blocks down 30%. How do you not label that as his stats being down considerably in spite of his reduced minutes. If his minutes were down 30% then you'd have a point, but the stats don't lie. In key defensive numbers he is down dramatically even with his reduced time. KG was definitely an elite beast defensively in the past and arguably one of the greatest ever, however he is nowhere near that level and now plays at a "good" level. In 08 he was a much better player than Rondo. Not anymore. That's kind of the whole point of the thread.

Well you are exaggerating the decline of KG to make your point.

He has clearly lost some of his rebounding ability but his defense is still elite.

Steals and blocks can be very misleading to judge a defender.

Avery Bradley averages .4 spg and I think he is one of the best defenders at his position in the league, if not the best.

What I am saying is that he has regressed from top 2-3 EVER defensively at his position to top 5 in the league at his position.

You're original post had him pegged as washed up as a defender. At least thats what I read with the tone of your post.

I'm exaggerating his decline by giving you actual defensive numbers?! You are reading into my TONE of the post now?! From the get go I said KG's elite defensive ability is a thing of the past and he isn't near the defender he was. The stats back that up. You can see him out there and confirm that is true. His body won't let him play like he once did. Not his fault. I think he is doing what he can and is still a good defender. Not good enough though with no big center presence like Perk was to back him up. So now you have a good PF in KG, no Center presence, and Ray and PP. That isn't enough to allow us to contend. Even with very good bench pickups in Bass and Pietrus. We are a reasonably good team. Just not contenders.

[Donoghus]

Meanwhile, Rondo continues his pout with the media:

"Silent treatment

Rajon Rondo refused to speak with the media again yesterday. He hasn’t talked with reporters since the loss to Toronto Friday . . ."

I'd say he still has a little work to do before he's any team's leader.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2012/02/15/extensive_travel_plans_await/?page=2

  He's one of the team's leaders, and he has been for a while. If he can be one of the leaders on a team with the big three he can be one on any team.

Im going to have to argue with that one.

From what I have seen, his leadership skills are a work in progress.

There have been many reports that Doc has had alot of trouble getting him to be a leader.

On the floor, sure he leads by example, plays hard etc.

But he is not a vocal/locker room leader from everything I have heard/read. Not very accountable.

Maybe that is changing though right before our eyes. In my opinion, I like that he is silent in the media right now. I think he actually showed some accountability to his teammates by telling Doc he played like crap in TOR and came back in that CHI game with some fire.

I just want to see it consistently.

  Don't argue with me, argue with the team. Doc and the big three have been referring to Rondo as a leader for quite some time.

Sure he's a leader.  He's the starting PG.  The floor general.

I'd be more concerned if a sixth year starting PG wasn't referred to as a leader at this point in his career.

[CelticsFanNC]

This is semantical and I'm sure covered elsewhere in this thread, but when I say I don't mind building "around Rondo" I really mean building a team with him being one of the pieces.  Not necessarily that I think he's the cornerstone future of the franchise.

I think he's a big piece of the puzzle, but we need more stars and preferably a top 10 guy (I don't have a list, but I think Rondo could be top 25 or higher).  Easier said than done though.

  Exactly.

  Right now we have one piece who could be a key pierce to a future title team in Rondo.  He's not perfect.  He's not a franchise player.

  Pass first PG's have traditionally throughout NBA history had  more success in terms of winning NBA titles then scoring PG's.    None of them with the exception of Magic Johnson was really a franchise player but all of those title teams except for Kobe's Lakers and Jordan's Bull's had a key contributor at the PG spot.  Dennis Johnson, and Tiny Archibald are examples in the Celtic's past.  Both were very good and contributed a whole lot to Celtic's title teams but neither was a franchise player at the time they played in Boston.

  You can have your primary ball handler as your primary, go to scorer if that guy is at the level of Kobe and Jordan.  Otherwise you are better off with a pass first PG and someone else as your primary go to scorer.

  Where we draft and with what we have to trade and most importantly how rare those kind of players are, we aren't finding a Kobe or a Jordan anytime soon guys.

  Rondo is a great piece to a title team.  He's inconsistent but has played his best basketball in the playoffs.  He might be a whole lot more consistent if he had one or two guys playing the bulk of their minutes with him who can get out into the open court because that is where Rondo thrives.  He has done extremely well considering he's at his best when he plays in the open court but has spent his entire career playing with a group of guys who prefer playing in the half court.

  To me that is the main reason we have only seen glimpses of how great Rondo can be.  Give him a couple of stallions to run with and he could be that player a whole lot more often IMO.

[BballTim]

Let's be real here folks. Rondo is a very nice player and one of the better PG's in the league. He has a lot of areas where he is best in the league, but a few where he really struggles. He is by no means a complete PG who would be considered an all-time great. That being said, he is a nice trading chip to build a contender. Let's not forget the Champions of the past years and who led their teams:

Nowitzki, Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc...

The only PG that arguably led their team to a Championship, because I don't think Magic really counts at the PG spot, is Isaiah Thomas. Rondo is no Isaiah Thomas. He doesn't have the scoring ability to consistently take over a game. Isaiah was a Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time consistently throughout his career. Rondo, while very good, isn't anywhere near that level.

If the goal truly is a Championship, then putting all your eggs in the "Let Rondo be the cornerstone of this team" basket is a horrible plan. Championships are won with all-stars at the 3,4, and/or 5 spots. Not with PG's with huge holes in their game.

Why not face the fact that we are not going to win with this team. While Ray, Pierce, and KG at one point were championship material, they all aren't now. KG isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up with JO not healthy enough to be dependable. Rather than spend this year and next pretending we have a shot, let's ensure that we won't wallow in another 20 years of mediocrity by using Rondo to give us a chance at maintaining a winning team and with a little luck contend again. If not, 2 years from now we are likely to be the Washington Wizards...

  Trying to skew your argument by saying Magic doesn't count as a point guard is fairly nonsensical. Which point guard duties did he not do? Aside from that, is anyone claiming that Rondo is going to be the cornerstone going forward? How about a building block, one of the 2-3 good/great players you need to win a title? And someone better phone KG and tell him that he  isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up. We're 3rd or so in defense right now. Considering the fact that we were in the 20s after a dozen games or so, I'd wager that over the last month or so our defense has been significantly better than any other defense in the league.

You make Rondo, or any other PG 6 foot 9, and you might be right about Magic, but he was a PG only because of how deep that team was. You can put PG in front of Pierce's name as well and I would argue we do better in the half court, but that doesn't make him a PG. I seem to recall one of those Championships of Magic's was won with him playing the Center spot. Grow Rondo 9-10 inches and give him Magic's scoring ability and we can discuss that.

As far as KG goes, we are playing great defense in spite of KG. He has been horrible compared to the KG of 2008. He's rebounding at a 30% lower clip than his career avg.  His steals are 50% lower than career avg. His blocks are down 30%. Of the big 3, KG has by far the most miles and it shows.

KG's minutes are way down from his career average. His rebound rate has been pretty steady since he got to boston in 07-08. Also, he is blocking shots this year at a rate not seen since his days in minesota.

Clearly KG has lost some athletic ability, but in his prime, KG was an absolute freak athletically.

Now he is still above average athletically compared to other players his size. He is still very effective in the Celtics defensive schemes and he's even shown me some new tricks by playing some dang good one on one defense on centers this year.

He is still an elite defensive player.

KG's minutes are down 15% from his career avg this season. His steals down 50%, rebounds and blocks down 30%. How do you not label that as his stats being down considerably in spite of his reduced minutes. If his minutes were down 30% then you'd have a point, but the stats don't lie. In key defensive numbers he is down dramatically even with his reduced time. KG was definitely an elite beast defensively in the past and arguably one of the greatest ever, however he is nowhere near that level and now plays at a "good" level. In 08 he was a much better player than Rondo. Not anymore. That's kind of the whole point of the thread.

Well you are exaggerating the decline of KG to make your point.

He has clearly lost some of his rebounding ability but his defense is still elite.

Steals and blocks can be very misleading to judge a defender.

Avery Bradley averages .4 spg and I think he is one of the best defenders at his position in the league, if not the best.

What I am saying is that he has regressed from top 2-3 EVER defensively at his position to top 5 in the league at his position.

You're original post had him pegged as washed up as a defender. At least thats what I read with the tone of your post.

I'm exaggerating his decline by giving you actual defensive numbers?! You are reading into my TONE of the post now?! From the get go I said KG's elite defensive ability is a thing of the past and he isn't near the defender he was. The stats back that up. You can see him out there and confirm that is true. His body won't let him play like he once did. Not his fault. I think he is doing what he can and is still a good defender. Not good enough though with no big center presence like Perk was to back him up. So now you have a good PF in KG, no Center presence, and Ray and PP. That isn't enough to allow us to contend. Even with very good bench pickups in Bass and Pietrus. We are a reasonably good team. Just not contenders.

  KG's defensive rebounding rate is almost identical to what it was in the two years we went to the finals. His blocks may be down but his other defensive numbers are very good. If we don't contend, it won't be because of our defense, which is close to the best in the league.

[Greenbean]

Let's be real here folks. Rondo is a very nice player and one of the better PG's in the league. He has a lot of areas where he is best in the league, but a few where he really struggles. He is by no means a complete PG who would be considered an all-time great. That being said, he is a nice trading chip to build a contender. Let's not forget the Champions of the past years and who led their teams:

Nowitzki, Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc...

The only PG that arguably led their team to a Championship, because I don't think Magic really counts at the PG spot, is Isaiah Thomas. Rondo is no Isaiah Thomas. He doesn't have the scoring ability to consistently take over a game. Isaiah was a Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time consistently throughout his career. Rondo, while very good, isn't anywhere near that level.

If the goal truly is a Championship, then putting all your eggs in the "Let Rondo be the cornerstone of this team" basket is a horrible plan. Championships are won with all-stars at the 3,4, and/or 5 spots. Not with PG's with huge holes in their game.

Why not face the fact that we are not going to win with this team. While Ray, Pierce, and KG at one point were championship material, they all aren't now. KG isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up with JO not healthy enough to be dependable. Rather than spend this year and next pretending we have a shot, let's ensure that we won't wallow in another 20 years of mediocrity by using Rondo to give us a chance at maintaining a winning team and with a little luck contend again. If not, 2 years from now we are likely to be the Washington Wizards...

  Trying to skew your argument by saying Magic doesn't count as a point guard is fairly nonsensical. Which point guard duties did he not do? Aside from that, is anyone claiming that Rondo is going to be the cornerstone going forward? How about a building block, one of the 2-3 good/great players you need to win a title? And someone better phone KG and tell him that he  isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up. We're 3rd or so in defense right now. Considering the fact that we were in the 20s after a dozen games or so, I'd wager that over the last month or so our defense has been significantly better than any other defense in the league.

You make Rondo, or any other PG 6 foot 9, and you might be right about Magic, but he was a PG only because of how deep that team was. You can put PG in front of Pierce's name as well and I would argue we do better in the half court, but that doesn't make him a PG. I seem to recall one of those Championships of Magic's was won with him playing the Center spot. Grow Rondo 9-10 inches and give him Magic's scoring ability and we can discuss that.

As far as KG goes, we are playing great defense in spite of KG. He has been horrible compared to the KG of 2008. He's rebounding at a 30% lower clip than his career avg.  His steals are 50% lower than career avg. His blocks are down 30%. Of the big 3, KG has by far the most miles and it shows.

KG's minutes are way down from his career average. His rebound rate has been pretty steady since he got to boston in 07-08. Also, he is blocking shots this year at a rate not seen since his days in minesota.

Clearly KG has lost some athletic ability, but in his prime, KG was an absolute freak athletically.

Now he is still above average athletically compared to other players his size. He is still very effective in the Celtics defensive schemes and he's even shown me some new tricks by playing some dang good one on one defense on centers this year.

He is still an elite defensive player.

KG's minutes are down 15% from his career avg this season. His steals down 50%, rebounds and blocks down 30%. How do you not label that as his stats being down considerably in spite of his reduced minutes. If his minutes were down 30% then you'd have a point, but the stats don't lie. In key defensive numbers he is down dramatically even with his reduced time. KG was definitely an elite beast defensively in the past and arguably one of the greatest ever, however he is nowhere near that level and now plays at a "good" level. In 08 he was a much better player than Rondo. Not anymore. That's kind of the whole point of the thread.

Well you are exaggerating the decline of KG to make your point.

He has clearly lost some of his rebounding ability but his defense is still elite.

Steals and blocks can be very misleading to judge a defender.

Avery Bradley averages .4 spg and I think he is one of the best defenders at his position in the league, if not the best.

What I am saying is that he has regressed from top 2-3 EVER defensively at his position to top 5 in the league at his position.

You're original post had him pegged as washed up as a defender. At least thats what I read with the tone of your post.

I'm exaggerating his decline by giving you actual defensive numbers?! You are reading into my TONE of the post now?! From the get go I said KG's elite defensive ability is a thing of the past and he isn't near the defender he was. The stats back that up. You can see him out there and confirm that is true. His body won't let him play like he once did. Not his fault. I think he is doing what he can and is still a good defender. Not good enough though with no big center presence like Perk was to back him up. So now you have a good PF in KG, no Center presence, and Ray and PP. That isn't enough to allow us to contend. Even with very good bench pickups in Bass and Pietrus. We are a reasonably good team. Just not contenders.

Yeah but the stats do not back that up. Steals and blocks are not the only defensive metrics.

Can someone help me here? There are plenty of stats that paint the picture that KG still has humongous impact defensively. Top 5 in the NBA even at his position.

Also the naked eye tells me he still is a great rotating, lane disrupting, basket defending, and versatile defender.

[Moranis]

 Pass first PG's have traditionally throughout NBA history had  more success in terms of winning NBA titles then scoring PG's.    None of them with the exception of Magic Johnson was really a franchise player but all of those title teams except for Kobe's Lakers and Jordan's Bull's had a key contributor at the PG spot.  Dennis Johnson, and Tiny Archibald are examples in the Celtic's past.  Both were very good and contributed a whole lot to Celtic's title teams but neither was a franchise player at the time they played in Boston.

There have been 3 PG's in history that were or were arguably their teams best player and that won a title Magic, Isiah, and Billups.  I don't believe Billups was the Pistons best player that season, but many do.  Cousy was an all time great PG, but was never Boston's best player on the title teams.  Clyde Frazier also an all time great.  

Isiah was a scoring PG.  I don't think there is much debate there.

Billups was a scoring PG.  Career best assists 8.6 and only above 7 one other time in his career.

Frazier a scoring PG.  First three seasons around or above 7 assists a game, never again above 6 with six seasons above 20 points a game.  

Magic pretty clearly a passing PG.  

Cousy was a bit of a hybrid.  He was a great passer, no doubt, but he also was the second leading scorer for virtually every title team he was a part of and the Celtics loved to share the ball.


When you start looking at players that were top 3/4 on their team that won titles, you get guys like Parker (scoring), Payton (scoring), Archibald (scoring), D. Johnson (scoring), Robertson (scoring), Hollins (scoring), and Goodrich (scoring).  Kidd and Rondo are the only guys that would be considered a pass-first PG that were arguable a top 3/4 guy (that wasn't a 1 or 1a).  

If you aren't in the top 3/4 of your teams hierarchy then you aren't enough of a contributor to make a difference.  

The reality is Magic, Kidd, Rondo, and possibly Cousy are the only PG's that played key roles on championship teams that you would consider a pass first PG.  Scoring PG's win far more often than pass-first guys.  Even role player starting PG's tend to be more scorers whether it is Fisher (Lakers), Harper (Bulls), Cassell (Rockets), Paxson (Bulls), etc.

[Greenbean]

Meanwhile, Rondo continues his pout with the media:

"Silent treatment

Rajon Rondo refused to speak with the media again yesterday. He hasn’t talked with reporters since the loss to Toronto Friday . . ."

I'd say he still has a little work to do before he's any team's leader.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2012/02/15/extensive_travel_plans_await/?page=2

  He's one of the team's leaders, and he has been for a while. If he can be one of the leaders on a team with the big three he can be one on any team.

Im going to have to argue with that one.

From what I have seen, his leadership skills are a work in progress.

There have been many reports that Doc has had alot of trouble getting him to be a leader.

On the floor, sure he leads by example, plays hard etc.

But he is not a vocal/locker room leader from everything I have heard/read. Not very accountable.

Maybe that is changing though right before our eyes. In my opinion, I like that he is silent in the media right now. I think he actually showed some accountability to his teammates by telling Doc he played like crap in TOR and came back in that CHI game with some fire.

I just want to see it consistently.

  Don't argue with me, argue with the team. Doc and the big three have been referring to Rondo as a leader for quite some time.

I think that they are referring to his on floor leadership. He is the pg and makes the team go. He is the undoubted floor general of the team.

I just think he still has some maturing to do in the lockerroom as a leader. His standing up and taking accountability for his bad game (and stretch of games) is a good sign.

Now obviously we are not talking about tangibles here so the discussion might be fruitless.

It's just that everytime I assume that Rondo has turned a corner with his attitude, I hear stories like what he did during a film session where Doc was critical of him (that poor television).

It's kind of like Lebron's attitude. He has never had a coach that pushed him to be accountable. I think that is a huge reason people question his leadership abilities.

[clover]

Meanwhile, Rondo continues his pout with the media:

"Silent treatment

Rajon Rondo refused to speak with the media again yesterday. He hasn’t talked with reporters since the loss to Toronto Friday . . ."

I'd say he still has a little work to do before he's any team's leader.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2012/02/15/extensive_travel_plans_await/?page=2

I love how this is only a big deal when Rondo does this. No one else remembers Pierce doing the exact same thing after all the trade rumors about him this year?

Rondo's not facing trade rumors, and though Pierce isn't exactly the paragon of maturity either, he didn't carry it on for six days.

[BballTim]

Meanwhile, Rondo continues his pout with the media:

"Silent treatment

Rajon Rondo refused to speak with the media again yesterday. He hasn’t talked with reporters since the loss to Toronto Friday . . ."

I'd say he still has a little work to do before he's any team's leader.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2012/02/15/extensive_travel_plans_await/?page=2

  He's one of the team's leaders, and he has been for a while. If he can be one of the leaders on a team with the big three he can be one on any team.

Im going to have to argue with that one.

From what I have seen, his leadership skills are a work in progress.

There have been many reports that Doc has had alot of trouble getting him to be a leader.

On the floor, sure he leads by example, plays hard etc.

But he is not a vocal/locker room leader from everything I have heard/read. Not very accountable.

Maybe that is changing though right before our eyes. In my opinion, I like that he is silent in the media right now. I think he actually showed some accountability to his teammates by telling Doc he played like crap in TOR and came back in that CHI game with some fire.

I just want to see it consistently.

  Don't argue with me, argue with the team. Doc and the big three have been referring to Rondo as a leader for quite some time.

I think that they are referring to his on floor leadership. He is the pg and makes the team go. He is the undoubted floor general of the team.

I just think he still has some maturing to do in the lockerroom as a leader. His standing up and taking accountability for his bad game (and stretch of games) is a good sign.

Now obviously we are not talking about tangibles here so the discussion might be fruitless.

It's just that everytime I assume that Rondo has turned a corner with his attitude, I hear stories like what he did during a film session where Doc was critical of him (that poor television).

It's kind of like Lebron's attitude. He has never had a coach that pushed him to be accountable. I think that is a huge reason people question his leadership abilities.

  His taking accountability for his play is nothing new. His getting angry during a film session seems like a big deal if you look at Rondo in a vacuum, not so big when you compare it to what other players do.

[clover]

Meanwhile, Rondo continues his pout with the media:

"Silent treatment

Rajon Rondo refused to speak with the media again yesterday. He hasn’t talked with reporters since the loss to Toronto Friday . . ."

I'd say he still has a little work to do before he's any team's leader.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2012/02/15/extensive_travel_plans_await/?page=2

  He's one of the team's leaders, and he has been for a while. If he can be one of the leaders on a team with the big three he can be one on any team.

Im going to have to argue with that one.

From what I have seen, his leadership skills are a work in progress.

There have been many reports that Doc has had alot of trouble getting him to be a leader.

On the floor, sure he leads by example, plays hard etc.

But he is not a vocal/locker room leader from everything I have heard/read. Not very accountable.

Maybe that is changing though right before our eyes. In my opinion, I like that he is silent in the media right now. I think he actually showed some accountability to his teammates by telling Doc he played like crap in TOR and came back in that CHI game with some fire.

I just want to see it consistently.

  Don't argue with me, argue with the team. Doc and the big three have been referring to Rondo as a leader for quite some time.

I think that they are referring to his on floor leadership. He is the pg and makes the team go. He is the undoubted floor general of the team.

I just think he still has some maturing to do in the lockerroom as a leader. His standing up and taking accountability for his bad game (and stretch of games) is a good sign.

Now obviously we are not talking about tangibles here so the discussion might be fruitless.

It's just that everytime I assume that Rondo has turned a corner with his attitude, I hear stories like what he did during a film session where Doc was critical of him (that poor television).

It's kind of like Lebron's attitude. He has never had a coach that pushed him to be accountable. I think that is a huge reason people question his leadership abilities.

  His taking accountability for his play is nothing new. His getting angry during a film session seems like a big deal if you look at Rondo in a vacuum, not so big when you compare it to what other players do.

I'd add to that that he's not the leader his team needs when he acts like a punk with the media, and that unfortunately happens even when he's talking to the media and he gives straight-faced joke answers.  The poor schlebs asking him the question can't risk not taking him seriously and Rondo somehow seems to think he's proving something by jerking them around.  Wherever and however he got a chip on his shoulder, it's still there and it gets in the way of his professionalism.

[BballTim]

Meanwhile, Rondo continues his pout with the media:

"Silent treatment

Rajon Rondo refused to speak with the media again yesterday. He hasn’t talked with reporters since the loss to Toronto Friday . . ."

I'd say he still has a little work to do before he's any team's leader.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2012/02/15/extensive_travel_plans_await/?page=2

  He's one of the team's leaders, and he has been for a while. If he can be one of the leaders on a team with the big three he can be one on any team.

Im going to have to argue with that one.

From what I have seen, his leadership skills are a work in progress.

There have been many reports that Doc has had alot of trouble getting him to be a leader.

On the floor, sure he leads by example, plays hard etc.

But he is not a vocal/locker room leader from everything I have heard/read. Not very accountable.

Maybe that is changing though right before our eyes. In my opinion, I like that he is silent in the media right now. I think he actually showed some accountability to his teammates by telling Doc he played like crap in TOR and came back in that CHI game with some fire.

I just want to see it consistently.

  Don't argue with me, argue with the team. Doc and the big three have been referring to Rondo as a leader for quite some time.

I think that they are referring to his on floor leadership. He is the pg and makes the team go. He is the undoubted floor general of the team.

I just think he still has some maturing to do in the lockerroom as a leader. His standing up and taking accountability for his bad game (and stretch of games) is a good sign.

Now obviously we are not talking about tangibles here so the discussion might be fruitless.

It's just that everytime I assume that Rondo has turned a corner with his attitude, I hear stories like what he did during a film session where Doc was critical of him (that poor television).

It's kind of like Lebron's attitude. He has never had a coach that pushed him to be accountable. I think that is a huge reason people question his leadership abilities.

  His taking accountability for his play is nothing new. His getting angry during a film session seems like a big deal if you look at Rondo in a vacuum, not so big when you compare it to what other players do.

I'd add to that that he's not the leader his team needs when he acts like a punk with the media, and that unfortunately happens even when he's talking to the media and he gives straight-faced joke answers.  The poor schlebs asking him the question can't risk not taking him seriously and Rondo somehow seems to think he's proving something by jerking them around.  Wherever and however he got a chip on his shoulder, it's still there and it gets in the way of his professionalism.

  People on the blog are experts in what kind of leader the team needs? God forbid the guy crack a joke, obviously a sense of humor is a serious character flaw. Again, people put Rondo under a microscope and evaluate the results in a vacuum.

[BballTim]

 Pass first PG's have traditionally throughout NBA history had  more success in terms of winning NBA titles then scoring PG's.    None of them with the exception of Magic Johnson was really a franchise player but all of those title teams except for Kobe's Lakers and Jordan's Bull's had a key contributor at the PG spot.  Dennis Johnson, and Tiny Archibald are examples in the Celtic's past.  Both were very good and contributed a whole lot to Celtic's title teams but neither was a franchise player at the time they played in Boston.

There have been 3 PG's in history that were or were arguably their teams best player and that won a title Magic, Isiah, and Billups.  I don't believe Billups was the Pistons best player that season, but many do.  Cousy was an all time great PG, but was never Boston's best player on the title teams.  Clyde Frazier also an all time great.  

Isiah was a scoring PG.  I don't think there is much debate there.

Billups was a scoring PG.  Career best assists 8.6 and only above 7 one other time in his career.

Frazier a scoring PG.  First three seasons around or above 7 assists a game, never again above 6 with six seasons above 20 points a game.  

Magic pretty clearly a passing PG.  

Cousy was a bit of a hybrid.  He was a great passer, no doubt, but he also was the second leading scorer for virtually every title team he was a part of and the Celtics loved to share the ball.


When you start looking at players that were top 3/4 on their team that won titles, you get guys like Parker (scoring), Payton (scoring), Archibald (scoring), D. Johnson (scoring), Robertson (scoring), Hollins (scoring), and Goodrich (scoring).  Kidd and Rondo are the only guys that would be considered a pass-first PG that were arguable a top 3/4 guy (that wasn't a 1 or 1a).  

If you aren't in the top 3/4 of your teams hierarchy then you aren't enough of a contributor to make a difference.  

The reality is Magic, Kidd, Rondo, and possibly Cousy are the only PG's that played key roles on championship teams that you would consider a pass first PG.  Scoring PG's win far more often than pass-first guys.  Even role player starting PG's tend to be more scorers whether it is Fisher (Lakers), Harper (Bulls), Cassell (Rockets), Paxson (Bulls), etc.

  You're being pretty arbitrary in your decisions about passing vs scoring. Thomas is top 5 all time in assists/game. So is Robertson, who was top 3 in assists/game 10 times in his career and led the league 6-7 times. Tiny averaged 14 points and 8 assists when the Celts won, calling that scoring is a bit of a stretch.

[Celtics18]

Meanwhile, Rondo continues his pout with the media:

"Silent treatment

Rajon Rondo refused to speak with the media again yesterday. He hasn’t talked with reporters since the loss to Toronto Friday . . ."

I'd say he still has a little work to do before he's any team's leader.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2012/02/15/extensive_travel_plans_await/?page=2

  He's one of the team's leaders, and he has been for a while. If he can be one of the leaders on a team with the big three he can be one on any team.

Im going to have to argue with that one.

From what I have seen, his leadership skills are a work in progress.

There have been many reports that Doc has had alot of trouble getting him to be a leader.

On the floor, sure he leads by example, plays hard etc.

But he is not a vocal/locker room leader from everything I have heard/read. Not very accountable.

Maybe that is changing though right before our eyes. In my opinion, I like that he is silent in the media right now. I think he actually showed some accountability to his teammates by telling Doc he played like crap in TOR and came back in that CHI game with some fire.

I just want to see it consistently.

  Don't argue with me, argue with the team. Doc and the big three have been referring to Rondo as a leader for quite some time.

I think that they are referring to his on floor leadership. He is the pg and makes the team go. He is the undoubted floor general of the team.

I just think he still has some maturing to do in the lockerroom as a leader. His standing up and taking accountability for his bad game (and stretch of games) is a good sign.

Now obviously we are not talking about tangibles here so the discussion might be fruitless.

It's just that everytime I assume that Rondo has turned a corner with his attitude, I hear stories like what he did during a film session where Doc was critical of him (that poor television).

It's kind of like Lebron's attitude. He has never had a coach that pushed him to be accountable. I think that is a huge reason people question his leadership abilities.

  His taking accountability for his play is nothing new. His getting angry during a film session seems like a big deal if you look at Rondo in a vacuum, not so big when you compare it to what other players do.

I'd add to that that he's not the leader his team needs when he acts like a punk with the media, and that unfortunately happens even when he's talking to the media and he gives straight-faced joke answers.  The poor schlebs asking him the question can't risk not taking him seriously and Rondo somehow seems to think he's proving something by jerking them around.  Wherever and however he got a chip on his shoulder, it's still there and it gets in the way of his professionalism.

I like that Rondo's got a bit of a chip on his shoulder.  The great players usually do.