PG's Do NOT Lead a Team to a Championship

[EJPLAYA]

Let's be real here folks. Rondo is a very nice player and one of the better PG's in the league. He has a lot of areas where he is best in the league, but a few where he really struggles. He is by no means a complete PG who would be considered an all-time great. That being said, he is a nice trading chip to build a contender. Let's not forget the Champions of the past years and who led their teams:

Nowitzki, Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc...

The only PG that arguably led their team to a Championship, because I don't think Magic really counts at the PG spot, is Isaiah Thomas. Rondo is no Isaiah Thomas. He doesn't have the scoring ability to consistently take over a game. Isaiah was a Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time consistently throughout his career. Rondo, while very good, isn't anywhere near that level.

If the goal truly is a Championship, then putting all your eggs in the "Let Rondo be the cornerstone of this team" basket is a horrible plan. Championships are won with all-stars at the 3,4, and/or 5 spots. Not with PG's with huge holes in their game.

Why not face the fact that we are not going to win with this team. While Ray, Pierce, and KG at one point were championship material, they all aren't now. KG isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up with JO not healthy enough to be dependable. Rather than spend this year and next pretending we have a shot, let's ensure that we won't wallow in another 20 years of mediocrity by using Rondo to give us a chance at maintaining a winning team and with a little luck contend again. If not, 2 years from now we are likely to be the Washington Wizards...

[StartOrien]

[EJPLAYA]

Meaning what?! NY is going to win a Championship with Lin?! First of all he isn't even as good as Rondo. Second of all history shows pretty clearly if he is the best player on their team then they won't. I think Melo and Stoudemire would argue with you a bit about who the best player on that team is...

[BballTim]

Let's be real here folks. Rondo is a very nice player and one of the better PG's in the league. He has a lot of areas where he is best in the league, but a few where he really struggles. He is by no means a complete PG who would be considered an all-time great. That being said, he is a nice trading chip to build a contender. Let's not forget the Champions of the past years and who led their teams:

Nowitzki, Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc...

The only PG that arguably led their team to a Championship, because I don't think Magic really counts at the PG spot, is Isaiah Thomas. Rondo is no Isaiah Thomas. He doesn't have the scoring ability to consistently take over a game. Isaiah was a Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time consistently throughout his career. Rondo, while very good, isn't anywhere near that level.

If the goal truly is a Championship, then putting all your eggs in the "Let Rondo be the cornerstone of this team" basket is a horrible plan. Championships are won with all-stars at the 3,4, and/or 5 spots. Not with PG's with huge holes in their game.

Why not face the fact that we are not going to win with this team. While Ray, Pierce, and KG at one point were championship material, they all aren't now. KG isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up with JO not healthy enough to be dependable. Rather than spend this year and next pretending we have a shot, let's ensure that we won't wallow in another 20 years of mediocrity by using Rondo to give us a chance at maintaining a winning team and with a little luck contend again. If not, 2 years from now we are likely to be the Washington Wizards...

  Trying to skew your argument by saying Magic doesn't count as a point guard is fairly nonsensical. Which point guard duties did he not do? Aside from that, is anyone claiming that Rondo is going to be the cornerstone going forward? How about a building block, one of the 2-3 good/great players you need to win a title? And someone better phone KG and tell him that he  isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up. We're 3rd or so in defense right now. Considering the fact that we were in the 20s after a dozen games or so, I'd wager that over the last month or so our defense has been significantly better than any other defense in the league.

[green7]

it could happen one day

[Moranis]

This comes up every so often (usually because I bring it up) and it is true.  I forget the exact breakdown, but I actually went through season by season, and since Isiah's two title teams I believe there has only been 1 season in which the starting PG of the championship winner was an all star in that season (Parker for the fourth Spurs title).  In addition the starting PG of the team that lost the finals appeared in an all star game just 5 times - Payton, Stockton (only an all star 1 of the 2 years), Kidd x2, and Rondo.  

[EJPLAYA]

Let's be real here folks. Rondo is a very nice player and one of the better PG's in the league. He has a lot of areas where he is best in the league, but a few where he really struggles. He is by no means a complete PG who would be considered an all-time great. That being said, he is a nice trading chip to build a contender. Let's not forget the Champions of the past years and who led their teams:

Nowitzki, Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc...

The only PG that arguably led their team to a Championship, because I don't think Magic really counts at the PG spot, is Isaiah Thomas. Rondo is no Isaiah Thomas. He doesn't have the scoring ability to consistently take over a game. Isaiah was a Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time consistently throughout his career. Rondo, while very good, isn't anywhere near that level.

If the goal truly is a Championship, then putting all your eggs in the "Let Rondo be the cornerstone of this team" basket is a horrible plan. Championships are won with all-stars at the 3,4, and/or 5 spots. Not with PG's with huge holes in their game.

Why not face the fact that we are not going to win with this team. While Ray, Pierce, and KG at one point were championship material, they all aren't now. KG isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up with JO not healthy enough to be dependable. Rather than spend this year and next pretending we have a shot, let's ensure that we won't wallow in another 20 years of mediocrity by using Rondo to give us a chance at maintaining a winning team and with a little luck contend again. If not, 2 years from now we are likely to be the Washington Wizards...

  Trying to skew your argument by saying Magic doesn't count as a point guard is fairly nonsensical. Which point guard duties did he not do? Aside from that, is anyone claiming that Rondo is going to be the cornerstone going forward? How about a building block, one of the 2-3 good/great players you need to win a title? And someone better phone KG and tell him that he  isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up. We're 3rd or so in defense right now. Considering the fact that we were in the 20s after a dozen games or so, I'd wager that over the last month or so our defense has been significantly better than any other defense in the league.

You make Rondo, or any other PG 6 foot 9, and you might be right about Magic, but he was a PG only because of how deep that team was. You can put PG in front of Pierce's name as well and I would argue we do better in the half court, but that doesn't make him a PG. I seem to recall one of those Championships of Magic's was won with him playing the Center spot. Grow Rondo 9-10 inches and give him Magic's scoring ability and we can discuss that.

As far as KG goes, we are playing great defense in spite of KG. He has been horrible compared to the KG of 2008. He's rebounding at a 30% lower clip than his career avg.  His steals are 50% lower than career avg. His blocks are down 30%. Of the big 3, KG has by far the most miles and it shows.

[EJPLAYA]

Double post...

[BballTim]

This comes up every so often (usually because I bring it up) and it is true.  I forget the exact breakdown, but I actually went through season by season, and since Isiah's two title teams I believe there has only been 1 season in which the starting PG of the championship winner was an all star in that season (Parker for the fourth Spurs title).  In addition the starting PG of the team that lost the finals appeared in an all star game just 5 times - Payton, Stockton (only an all star 1 of the 2 years), Kidd x2, and Rondo.  

  It's also true that the team who's city has the lower unemployment rate generally wins the Super Bowl, at least that's what I heard on the news before the game. You need a very good player (especially defensively) that's a pf or c. You need 2-3 players that are of a certain caliber, regardless of their position. You're much more likely to win if you have a transcendent player. It just so happens that the last transcendent point guards were in the 80s/90s.

   Larry Bird was always the best player on his team, and that team was always a threat to win the title. Whether any of the title teams in the 20 years before or after had a small forward as their best player had no more effect on whether Bird's team won titles than, well, the unemployment rate in Boston.

[guava_wrench]

Let's be real here folks. Rondo is a very nice player and one of the better PG's in the league. He has a lot of areas where he is best in the league, but a few where he really struggles. He is by no means a complete PG who would be considered an all-time great. That being said, he is a nice trading chip to build a contender. Let's not forget the Champions of the past years and who led their teams:

Nowitzki, Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc...

The only PG that arguably led their team to a Championship, because I don't think Magic really counts at the PG spot, is Isaiah Thomas. Rondo is no Isaiah Thomas. He doesn't have the scoring ability to consistently take over a game. Isaiah was a Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time consistently throughout his career. Rondo, while very good, isn't anywhere near that level.

If the goal truly is a Championship, then putting all your eggs in the "Let Rondo be the cornerstone of this team" basket is a horrible plan. Championships are won with all-stars at the 3,4, and/or 5 spots. Not with PG's with huge holes in their game.

Why not face the fact that we are not going to win with this team. While Ray, Pierce, and KG at one point were championship material, they all aren't now. KG isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up with JO not healthy enough to be dependable. Rather than spend this year and next pretending we have a shot, let's ensure that we won't wallow in another 20 years of mediocrity by using Rondo to give us a chance at maintaining a winning team and with a little luck contend again. If not, 2 years from now we are likely to be the Washington Wizards...

  Trying to skew your argument by saying Magic doesn't count as a point guard is fairly nonsensical. Which point guard duties did he not do? Aside from that, is anyone claiming that Rondo is going to be the cornerstone going forward? How about a building block, one of the 2-3 good/great players you need to win a title? And someone better phone KG and tell him that he  isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up. We're 3rd or so in defense right now. Considering the fact that we were in the 20s after a dozen games or so, I'd wager that over the last month or so our defense has been significantly better than any other defense in the league.

To add to your point, Magic also didn't shoot well from a distance early on.

One thing that is probably true is that height can help you impose your will on games. Perhaps we are improperly focusing on just skills when actual games involve skill + physical characteristics. There are smaller guys who can do Duncan's moves all day on other small guys. Throw Chris Paul's skills on a 6'7" guy and we are asking if he is the best player ever. If Rondo was 6'5" he would completely smother guards on defense. Being short does lower the cap on greatness.

I think it is wrong though to think you need a transcendent player to win. You need a really good team, and having a transcendent player makes your team a lot better, especially when rotations are shortened in the playoffs.

[goCeltics]

the problem with the argument is that the big 3 are not so big no more. ppl love to say rondo is not a top 5 point guard (debatable) but is paul a top 5 sf?, is kg a top 5 power forward?, ray is top 5 sg? don't think so.

[Greenbean]

The inner conflict I have on this topic is one...it is true.

There have not been many champions where the undeniable best player on a team is the point guard.

That being said, there have been a TON of champions with good to great point guards. What has really skewed our view of this was the Kobe/MJ titles ( a good chunk of recent history). These are two unique players with unique talents in unique offenses (triangle). A ball dominant pg who could distribute was not needed on any of those teams.

Look at the rest, Kidd, Billups, Tony Parker, Rondo, Kenny Smith/Sam Cassel, Zeke Thomas, Magic, Dennis Johnson...

These are the starting pgs for champions (sans Bulls, Lakers).

It is silly to dump Rondo just so that he is not our best player next year. He still has ALOT to offer a championship team.

It only makes sense to trade him if we get a better or equal player in return which seems unlikely right now.

It's all about upgrading the roster.

[guava_wrench]

This comes up every so often (usually because I bring it up) and it is true.  I forget the exact breakdown, but I actually went through season by season, and since Isiah's two title teams I believe there has only been 1 season in which the starting PG of the championship winner was an all star in that season (Parker for the fourth Spurs title).  In addition the starting PG of the team that lost the finals appeared in an all star game just 5 times - Payton, Stockton (only an all star 1 of the 2 years), Kidd x2, and Rondo.  

  It's also true that the team who's city has the lower unemployment rate generally wins the Super Bowl, at least that's what I heard on the news before the game. You need a very good player (especially defensively) that's a pf or c. You need 2-3 players that are of a certain caliber, regardless of their position. You're much more likely to win if you have a transcendent player. It just so happens that the last transcendent point guards were in the 80s/90s.

   Larry Bird was always the best player on his team, and that team was always a threat to win the title. Whether any of the title teams in the 20 years before or after had a small forward as their best player had no more effect on whether Bird's team won titles than, well, the unemployment rate in Boston.

So what it actually boils down to is that Rondo isn't good enough to "lead" a team to a Championship. On the other hand, the word "lead" is misleading. When the Pistons won their most recent title, no one was really "leading" the team. When Dallas won, was Dirk leading the team, or was he just their best scorer? Magic and Jordan truly took over games and were clearly orchestrating their teams. No one person was that for us in 2008, particularly on offense.

For Dallas, it isn't clear to me who should be considered to be the greater player over his career, Dirk or Kidd. Dirk was clearly the better scorer, but Kidd did everything else on the court over his career except score gaudy numbers. There is no one I trust more to take a last shot than Dirk, but I think our desire to point to an individual to give credit to for sports victories is a sad artifact of our culture. This transcendent leader model isn't always in play.

[Jeff]

they don't hurt

[BballTim]

Let's be real here folks. Rondo is a very nice player and one of the better PG's in the league. He has a lot of areas where he is best in the league, but a few where he really struggles. He is by no means a complete PG who would be considered an all-time great. That being said, he is a nice trading chip to build a contender. Let's not forget the Champions of the past years and who led their teams:

Nowitzki, Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Wade, Shaq/Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc...

The only PG that arguably led their team to a Championship, because I don't think Magic really counts at the PG spot, is Isaiah Thomas. Rondo is no Isaiah Thomas. He doesn't have the scoring ability to consistently take over a game. Isaiah was a Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time consistently throughout his career. Rondo, while very good, isn't anywhere near that level.

If the goal truly is a Championship, then putting all your eggs in the "Let Rondo be the cornerstone of this team" basket is a horrible plan. Championships are won with all-stars at the 3,4, and/or 5 spots. Not with PG's with huge holes in their game.

Why not face the fact that we are not going to win with this team. While Ray, Pierce, and KG at one point were championship material, they all aren't now. KG isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up with JO not healthy enough to be dependable. Rather than spend this year and next pretending we have a shot, let's ensure that we won't wallow in another 20 years of mediocrity by using Rondo to give us a chance at maintaining a winning team and with a little luck contend again. If not, 2 years from now we are likely to be the Washington Wizards...

  Trying to skew your argument by saying Magic doesn't count as a point guard is fairly nonsensical. Which point guard duties did he not do? Aside from that, is anyone claiming that Rondo is going to be the cornerstone going forward? How about a building block, one of the 2-3 good/great players you need to win a title? And someone better phone KG and tell him that he  isn't anywhere near the defensive presence he once was, and we don't have any consistency at the 5 spot to back him up. We're 3rd or so in defense right now. Considering the fact that we were in the 20s after a dozen games or so, I'd wager that over the last month or so our defense has been significantly better than any other defense in the league.

You make Rondo, or any other PG 6 foot 9, and you might be right about Magic, but he was a PG only because of how deep that team was. You can put PG in front of Pierce's name as well and I would argue we do better in the half court, but that doesn't make him a PG. I seem to recall one of those Championships of Magic's was won with him playing the Center spot. Grow Rondo 9-10 inches and give him Magic's scoring ability and we can discuss that.

As far as KG goes, we are playing great defense in spite of KG. He has been horrible compared to the KG of 2008. He's rebounding at a 30% lower clip than his career avg.  His steals are 50% lower than career avg. His blocks are down 30%. Of the big 3, KG has by far the most miles and it shows.

  Magic was the point guard because he was the best ballhandler and passer on that team. He also had the best court vision. He played center for 1 game (really just parts of that game). It's certainly not the case that he was the regular center for that team. I'd also bet that he'd never led his team in scoring by Rondo's age if he ever did at all. Magic was a better scorer, but at the same age, in the playoffs, he was only about 4 points a game better. And KG's defense has been far from horrible. He hasn't been getting boards but he's more responsible for our defensive improvement than anyone on the team.