Rondo has to go, sorry...

[Celtics18]

He also holds onto the ball longer than he should.  The Celtics offense is at its best when the ball is moving around the perimeter looking for the open man, Rondo doesn't facilitate that at all.  

Yeah, that's starting to bug me even more than his lack of shooting ability.  Too often, our offense is "pound pound pound" the ball on the perimeter for 10 seconds before trying to initiate something at the last second.  It doesn't work.

We either need to swing the ball around quickly, or penetrate.  Unfortunately, we don't do either, and the pick-and-roll is non-existent, as well.  I don't blame that all on Rondo -- Doc needs to make adjustments -- but his weaknesses make the team much easier to defend.

The thing is that quite often having Rondo dribble the ball at the top of the key waiting for someone to get open off baseline picks does work.

I agree that it shouldn't be the only offensive set that we run, and it isn't.  However, when we struggle, it's often the play that many focus on as a sole reason for losing.    

[Roy H.]

How do we win the title in 2008 and then make the finals in 2010 if Rondo doesn't move the ball?

I think 2008 and 2010 are very different years.  In 2008, the ball was still going largely through Pierce and KG; in the Finals, Rondo only averaged 9.3 points and 6.7 assists.

By 2010, Rondo was more of a primary ball-handler and initiator of the offense.  Go back and look at the game threads from that Finals run, though.  Rondo was largely inconsistent in the playoffs, fluctuating from brilliant early, to largely mediocre late.  A lot of that is because Rondo stopped attacking, and settled for "dribble dribble dribble, pass".  At the time, a lot of folks attributed that to injury, although from some of Doc's comments about Rondo playing "with speed", it seems like some is mental, too.

Rondo is fully capable of being an amazing player, even without a jumper.  The problem is, he seems to go into funks where he's not nearly as aggressive as he should be, and our offense suffers for it.

[Celtics18]

The OP is just repeating what he heard on the TNT broadcast anyway, when they talked about Kobe guarding Rondo+roaming to help.
Again, rehashed, over exaggerated, old.

I'll also add that the same TNT crew pointed out that pretty much all of the Celtics starting five points in the paint come from Rondo's penetration.

Which one is it going to be?
Do you think we'd be in with a chance to even beat these top teams with 5 minutes to go without Rondo holding down the fort for the first 43 minutes of each game?

So you are saying that the fact that no one on the Lakers ha to guard Rondo the entir game is meaningless and had no impact on the Celtics? I simply can't remember another point guard who is supposedly in the top tier who the opposing team can ignore the whole game and not get burned. H is. Unique athlete, but i am not sure how much Better he is going to get - and he needs to get better.

Not meaningless, just not true.  Clearly you can see that "no one on the Lakers has to guard Rondo the entire game" is such a blatant exaggeration that it actually does your position more harm than good.

I understand being upset after a tough loss, but it's no reason to spout complete untruths as facts.

We must have watched different games. The game I watched had Kobe guarding Rondo fo most of it and had him 5-10 feet off him almost the entire time.  Kobe got to play centerfield because the Lakers have no respect for Rondo as a shooter.

Sorry, that's not the same as "not having to guard him the entire game."  Lots of top NBA players get played off to guard the drive and give up the jump shot.  This doesn't mean they are not being guarded.  

[bopna]

Im sorry too about this thread....


Can't believe these Trade RR posts always comes up after every loss.

We lost get over it, we move on... I bet Rondo comes up with a triple double tonight against the Raps and everyone is back on the Rondo bandwagon.

If ever we need to blame someone on this loss, Its KG's pathetic offensive performance and lack of boxing out on LA's bigs, yet we only lost by a point.

[traderondo]

I've said it once and I'll say it again...Delonte West is a better player than Rajon Rondo and as long as Rondo is on the team we will not win a series against the Heat.  Last year we didn't lose because Rondo was injured, we lost because Rondo was playing.  Miami, and other teams, are just to good to be playing 5-on-4.  When he got taken out of the game, DWest got more minutes and played much more effective.  Less turnovers, more efficient shooting, making Miami play 5-on-five.

Any argument for Rondo saying we were able to win a championship with him needs to be dismissed.  At the time he was playing with three HOF players IN THEIR PRIME.  One will go down as the best 3point shooter ever, another as arguably the best 4 in the game, and another's name is Paul Pierce.

Last thoughts...Trade Rondo for...anyone

  Last year, against the Heat, after Rondo hurt his arm, the team *still* played much better with Rondo than with West. I think you could literally tie one of Rondo's hands behind his back and he might be the better of the two.

That's just not true.  Look at the numbers for the series:

Rondo:  50 points from 45 field goal attempts
DWest:  55 points from 36 field goal attempts

[BballTim]

He also holds onto the ball longer than he should.  The Celtics offense is at its best when the ball is moving around the perimeter looking for the open man, Rondo doesn't facilitate that at all.  

Yeah, that's starting to bug me even more than his lack of shooting ability.  Too often, our offense is "pound pound pound" the ball on the perimeter for 10 seconds before trying to initiate something at the last second.  It doesn't work.

We either need to swing the ball around quickly, or penetrate.  Unfortunately, we don't do either, and the pick-and-roll is non-existent, as well.  I don't blame that all on Rondo -- Doc needs to make adjustments -- but his weaknesses make the team much easier to defend.

  Those 10 seconds are usually used up trying to free Ray for screens. I think it's also true that the Celts want to play at a slowish pace, I don't think that they want to see the older guys running up and down the court that many more times a game.

Whatever the reason, it's not working.  The Celts are 21st in offensive efficiency, and most of the teams below us are the league's bottom-feeders. We're only better than the Knicks, Cavaliers, Grizzlies, Pistons, Kings, Hornets, Raptors, Wizards, and Bobcats.  That's not a group you want to belong to.

 We kind of fit into that group, but we kind of don't. You just listed 9 of the bottom 11 in eFG%. We're 7th. Our main problem in offensive efficiency is offensive rebounding.

[Bankshot]

I'm not going to say Rondo needs to go, but the offense has looked better without him.  The offense seems to flow better when it goes through Pierce.  Pierce doesn't hold the ball until the clock practically runs out.

[ms.ball]

I've said it once and I'll say it again...Delonte West is a better player than Rajon Rondo and as long as Rondo is on the team we will not win a series against the Heat.  Last year we didn't lose because Rondo was injured, we lost because Rondo was playing.  Miami, and other teams, are just to good to be playing 5-on-4.  When he got taken out of the game, DWest got more minutes and played much more effective.  Less turnovers, more efficient shooting, making Miami play 5-on-five.

Any argument for Rondo saying we were able to win a championship with him needs to be dismissed.  At the time he was playing with three HOF players IN THEIR PRIME.  One will go down as the best 3point shooter ever, another as arguably the best 4 in the game, and another's name is Paul Pierce.

Last thoughts...Trade Rondo for...anyone

  Last year, against the Heat, after Rondo hurt his arm, the team *still* played much better with Rondo than with West. I think you could literally tie one of Rondo's hands behind his back and he might be the better of the two.

That's just not true.  Look at the numbers for the series:

Rondo:  50 points from 45 field goal attempts
DWest:  55 points from 36 field goal attempts

Since when do points alone quality someone as being the better player?

[Roy H.]

He also holds onto the ball longer than he should.  The Celtics offense is at its best when the ball is moving around the perimeter looking for the open man, Rondo doesn't facilitate that at all.  

Yeah, that's starting to bug me even more than his lack of shooting ability.  Too often, our offense is "pound pound pound" the ball on the perimeter for 10 seconds before trying to initiate something at the last second.  It doesn't work.

We either need to swing the ball around quickly, or penetrate.  Unfortunately, we don't do either, and the pick-and-roll is non-existent, as well.  I don't blame that all on Rondo -- Doc needs to make adjustments -- but his weaknesses make the team much easier to defend.

  Those 10 seconds are usually used up trying to free Ray for screens. I think it's also true that the Celts want to play at a slowish pace, I don't think that they want to see the older guys running up and down the court that many more times a game.

Whatever the reason, it's not working.  The Celts are 21st in offensive efficiency, and most of the teams below us are the league's bottom-feeders. We're only better than the Knicks, Cavaliers, Grizzlies, Pistons, Kings, Hornets, Raptors, Wizards, and Bobcats.  That's not a group you want to belong to.

 We kind of fit into that group, but we kind of don't. You just listed 9 of the bottom 11 in eFG%. We're 7th. Our main problem in offensive efficiency is offensive rebounding.

Well, our main problem in offensive efficiency is failure to put the ball in the hoop.  Offensive rebounding may play a limited role, but keep in mind that if we shoot, miss, and grab an offensive board, that counts as two possessions for efficiency purposes.

eFG% is only one aspect of offensive efficiency.  We're third in turnovers, which eats possessions.  We're also below average in free throws per field goal attempt.  

Looking at that as a package, "Good jump shooting + poor penetration + lots of turnovers" is not a recipe for sustained offensive success.  We simply can't rely on jump shooting, especially with such an old team (with tired legs).

Again, all the blame for that doesn't fall on Rondo's shoulders, but he plays a part.  He needs to get to the hoop more, and he needs to find guys in positions where they can get points in the paint.

[BballTim]

I've said it once and I'll say it again...Delonte West is a better player than Rajon Rondo and as long as Rondo is on the team we will not win a series against the Heat.  Last year we didn't lose because Rondo was injured, we lost because Rondo was playing.  Miami, and other teams, are just to good to be playing 5-on-4.  When he got taken out of the game, DWest got more minutes and played much more effective.  Less turnovers, more efficient shooting, making Miami play 5-on-five.

Any argument for Rondo saying we were able to win a championship with him needs to be dismissed.  At the time he was playing with three HOF players IN THEIR PRIME.  One will go down as the best 3point shooter ever, another as arguably the best 4 in the game, and another's name is Paul Pierce.

Last thoughts...Trade Rondo for...anyone

  Last year, against the Heat, after Rondo hurt his arm, the team *still* played much better with Rondo than with West. I think you could literally tie one of Rondo's hands behind his back and he might be the better of the two.

That's just not true.  Look at the numbers for the series:

Rondo:  50 points from 45 field goal attempts
DWest:  55 points from 36 field goal attempts

  It's absolutely true. What I said was the *team* played better. In the last 2 games of the series we were a -2 in the 68 minutes Rondo played, -18 in the 28 minutes Rondo was on the bench. That translates to being outscored by about 2 points a game with Rondo and 31 a game without him. That's with Rondo basically playing with one arm.

  And your comparison ignores things like rebounds and assists, things that actually do make a difference in a game.

[BballTim]

He also holds onto the ball longer than he should.  The Celtics offense is at its best when the ball is moving around the perimeter looking for the open man, Rondo doesn't facilitate that at all.  

Yeah, that's starting to bug me even more than his lack of shooting ability.  Too often, our offense is "pound pound pound" the ball on the perimeter for 10 seconds before trying to initiate something at the last second.  It doesn't work.

We either need to swing the ball around quickly, or penetrate.  Unfortunately, we don't do either, and the pick-and-roll is non-existent, as well.  I don't blame that all on Rondo -- Doc needs to make adjustments -- but his weaknesses make the team much easier to defend.

  Those 10 seconds are usually used up trying to free Ray for screens. I think it's also true that the Celts want to play at a slowish pace, I don't think that they want to see the older guys running up and down the court that many more times a game.

Whatever the reason, it's not working.  The Celts are 21st in offensive efficiency, and most of the teams below us are the league's bottom-feeders. We're only better than the Knicks, Cavaliers, Grizzlies, Pistons, Kings, Hornets, Raptors, Wizards, and Bobcats.  That's not a group you want to belong to.

 We kind of fit into that group, but we kind of don't. You just listed 9 of the bottom 11 in eFG%. We're 7th. Our main problem in offensive efficiency is offensive rebounding.

Well, our main problem in offensive efficiency is failure to put the ball in the hoop.  Offensive rebounding may play a limited role, but keep in mind that if we shoot, miss, and grab an offensive board, that counts as two possessions for efficiency purposes.

eFG% is only one aspect of offensive efficiency.  We're third in turnovers, which eats possessions.  We're also below average in free throws per field goal attempt.  

Looking at that as a package, "Good jump shooting + poor penetration + lots of turnovers" is not a recipe for sustained offensive success.  We simply can't rely on jump shooting, especially with such an old team (with tired legs).

Again, all the blame for that doesn't fall on Rondo's shoulders, but he plays a part.  He needs to get to the hoop more, and he needs to find guys in positions where they can get points in the paint.

  It's not true that an offensive rebound is another possession. Possessions end when you score or lose the ball. If we had an average percentage in offensive rebounds we'd be probably 10th or so in efficiency. We are a high turnover team, I agree. But I don't think that being in the top 3rd of the league in shooting shows that we have trouble putting the ball in the hoop.

[kozlodoev]

Rondo is fully capable of being an amazing player, even without a jumper.  The problem is, he seems to go into funks where he's not nearly as aggressive as he should be, and our offense suffers for it.

Yes -- and it's also worth pointing out that he can go into funks defensively as well.

[traderondo]

I've said it once and I'll say it again...Delonte West is a better player than Rajon Rondo and as long as Rondo is on the team we will not win a series against the Heat.  Last year we didn't lose because Rondo was injured, we lost because Rondo was playing.  Miami, and other teams, are just to good to be playing 5-on-4.  When he got taken out of the game, DWest got more minutes and played much more effective.  Less turnovers, more efficient shooting, making Miami play 5-on-five.

Any argument for Rondo saying we were able to win a championship with him needs to be dismissed.  At the time he was playing with three HOF players IN THEIR PRIME.  One will go down as the best 3point shooter ever, another as arguably the best 4 in the game, and another's name is Paul Pierce.

Last thoughts...Trade Rondo for...anyone

  Last year, against the Heat, after Rondo hurt his arm, the team *still* played much better with Rondo than with West. I think you could literally tie one of Rondo's hands behind his back and he might be the better of the two.

That's just not true.  Look at the numbers for the series:

Rondo:  50 points from 45 field goal attempts
DWest:  55 points from 36 field goal attempts

  It's absolutely true. What I said was the *team* played better. In the last 2 games of the series we were a -2 in the 68 minutes Rondo played, -18 in the 28 minutes Rondo was on the bench. That translates to being outscored by about 2 points a game with Rondo and 31 a game without him. That's with Rondo basically playing with one arm.

  And your comparison ignores things like rebounds and assists, things that actually do make a difference in a game.

I've said it once and I'll say it again...Delonte West is a better player than Rajon Rondo and as long as Rondo is on the team we will not win a series against the Heat.  Last year we didn't lose because Rondo was injured, we lost because Rondo was playing.  Miami, and other teams, are just to good to be playing 5-on-4.  When he got taken out of the game, DWest got more minutes and played much more effective.  Less turnovers, more efficient shooting, making Miami play 5-on-five.

Any argument for Rondo saying we were able to win a championship with him needs to be dismissed.  At the time he was playing with three HOF players IN THEIR PRIME.  One will go down as the best 3point shooter ever, another as arguably the best 4 in the game, and another's name is Paul Pierce.

Last thoughts...Trade Rondo for...anyone

  Last year, against the Heat, after Rondo hurt his arm, the team *still* played much better with Rondo than with West. I think you could literally tie one of Rondo's hands behind his back and he might be the better of the two.

That's just not true.  Look at the numbers for the series:

Rondo:  50 points from 45 field goal attempts
DWest:  55 points from 36 field goal attempts

  It's absolutely true. What I said was the *team* played better. In the last 2 games of the series we were a -2 in the 68 minutes Rondo played, -18 in the 28 minutes Rondo was on the bench. That translates to being outscored by about 2 points a game with Rondo and 31 a game without him. That's with Rondo basically playing with one arm.

  And your comparison ignores things like rebounds and assists, things that actually do make a difference in a game.

My mistake on the *team* part.  I missed that. 

As for rebounds.  Rondo had 20 in 176 minutes (about 1 every 9 minutes) and DWest had 9 in 115 minutes (about 1 in every 12.5 mins).  So Rondo is a slightly better rebounder, which does help add a few possessions.

As for the points, that isn't what I was arguing.  My point is that for every shot Rondo takes he gets only 1.1 points.  Every time Delonte shoots, he gets 1.5 points.  Bottom line, Delonte is more efficient. 

If you want to consider assists as important AND talk about Rondo being better for the team then you have to consider that more points typically results in more assists for the team.  Do Dwest being efficient on offense as a shooter means that he the team as a whole will get more assists.  On the other hand, Rondo is inefficient and most of his baskets are unassisted.  If you think assists are important as an individual stat you'd have to think they are important as a team stat, and how these players contribute does not help your argument.

And although the +/- is one indicator to use, it can be a real deceiving stat.  Most of his minutes are with the other starter while DWests minutes were likely with a different core.  Can't break it down exactly but I think the +/- is very deceiving.  Worth pointing it out, but I take that with a grain of salt.

[BballTim]

I've said it once and I'll say it again...Delonte West is a better player than Rajon Rondo and as long as Rondo is on the team we will not win a series against the Heat.  Last year we didn't lose because Rondo was injured, we lost because Rondo was playing.  Miami, and other teams, are just to good to be playing 5-on-4.  When he got taken out of the game, DWest got more minutes and played much more effective.  Less turnovers, more efficient shooting, making Miami play 5-on-five.

Any argument for Rondo saying we were able to win a championship with him needs to be dismissed.  At the time he was playing with three HOF players IN THEIR PRIME.  One will go down as the best 3point shooter ever, another as arguably the best 4 in the game, and another's name is Paul Pierce.

Last thoughts...Trade Rondo for...anyone

  Last year, against the Heat, after Rondo hurt his arm, the team *still* played much better with Rondo than with West. I think you could literally tie one of Rondo's hands behind his back and he might be the better of the two.

That's just not true.  Look at the numbers for the series:

Rondo:  50 points from 45 field goal attempts
DWest:  55 points from 36 field goal attempts

  It's absolutely true. What I said was the *team* played better. In the last 2 games of the series we were a -2 in the 68 minutes Rondo played, -18 in the 28 minutes Rondo was on the bench. That translates to being outscored by about 2 points a game with Rondo and 31 a game without him. That's with Rondo basically playing with one arm.

  And your comparison ignores things like rebounds and assists, things that actually do make a difference in a game.

I've said it once and I'll say it again...Delonte West is a better player than Rajon Rondo and as long as Rondo is on the team we will not win a series against the Heat.  Last year we didn't lose because Rondo was injured, we lost because Rondo was playing.  Miami, and other teams, are just to good to be playing 5-on-4.  When he got taken out of the game, DWest got more minutes and played much more effective.  Less turnovers, more efficient shooting, making Miami play 5-on-five.

Any argument for Rondo saying we were able to win a championship with him needs to be dismissed.  At the time he was playing with three HOF players IN THEIR PRIME.  One will go down as the best 3point shooter ever, another as arguably the best 4 in the game, and another's name is Paul Pierce.

Last thoughts...Trade Rondo for...anyone

  Last year, against the Heat, after Rondo hurt his arm, the team *still* played much better with Rondo than with West. I think you could literally tie one of Rondo's hands behind his back and he might be the better of the two.

That's just not true.  Look at the numbers for the series:

Rondo:  50 points from 45 field goal attempts
DWest:  55 points from 36 field goal attempts

  It's absolutely true. What I said was the *team* played better. In the last 2 games of the series we were a -2 in the 68 minutes Rondo played, -18 in the 28 minutes Rondo was on the bench. That translates to being outscored by about 2 points a game with Rondo and 31 a game without him. That's with Rondo basically playing with one arm.

  And your comparison ignores things like rebounds and assists, things that actually do make a difference in a game.

My mistake on the *team* part.  I missed that. 

As for rebounds.  Rondo had 20 in 176 minutes (about 1 every 9 minutes) and DWest had 9 in 115 minutes (about 1 in every 12.5 mins).  So Rondo is a slightly better rebounder, which does help add a few possessions.

As for the points, that isn't what I was arguing.  My point is that for every shot Rondo takes he gets only 1.1 points.  Every time Delonte shoots, he gets 1.5 points.  Bottom line, Delonte is more efficient. 

If you want to consider assists as important AND talk about Rondo being better for the team then you have to consider that more points typically results in more assists for the team.  Do Dwest being efficient on offense as a shooter means that he the team as a whole will get more assists.  On the other hand, Rondo is inefficient and most of his baskets are unassisted.  If you think assists are important as an individual stat you'd have to think they are important as a team stat, and how these players contribute does not help your argument.

And although the +/- is one indicator to use, it can be a real deceiving stat.  Most of his minutes are with the other starter while DWests minutes were likely with a different core.  Can't break it down exactly but I think the +/- is very deceiving.  Worth pointing it out, but I take that with a grain of salt.

  In terms of assists, when Rondo was on the bench we had about 56% of our made baskets assisted last season. When he was in the game that number was 67%. For perspective, that's a bigger jump than the Suns saw when Nash was playing in either of his MVP seasons.

[PosImpos]

He also holds onto the ball longer than he should.  The Celtics offense is at its best when the ball is moving around the perimeter looking for the open man, Rondo doesn't facilitate that at all.  

Yeah, that's starting to bug me even more than his lack of shooting ability.  Too often, our offense is "pound pound pound" the ball on the perimeter for 10 seconds before trying to initiate something at the last second.  It doesn't work.

We either need to swing the ball around quickly, or penetrate.  Unfortunately, we don't do either, and the pick-and-roll is non-existent, as well.  I don't blame that all on Rondo -- Doc needs to make adjustments -- but his weaknesses make the team much easier to defend.

The ball-stopping gets MUCH worse in the last 3-5 minutes of close games, too.

It can't be overstated how much worse this team gets in 4th quarters of close games.  I don't know if it's a change in strategy by the Celtics, by their opponents, or both, but without fail in 4th quarters of close games the Celtics go away from whatever has been working before, slow way down, and rely almost exclusively on long jumpshots.  Recipe for disaster, especially when you're an old team with poor rebounding and no inside presence. 

At the time in the game when it's best to focus on getting the ball inside (high percentage shots, getting fouled), the Celtics move further away.

What is truly infuriating about it is that it's been a consistent trend for a long time now -- even Danny has publicly acknowledged the lack of execution in the fourth -- yet the team hasn't tried any drastically new tactics.  They stick with the same tired old stuff which has lost us so many games we were winning.