Author Topic: C's are clearly not contenders  (Read 29252 times)

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Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #120 on: February 10, 2012, 01:42:13 AM »

Offline celtics2

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Is that box score correct? We took only 5 foul shots? LA 20.

Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #121 on: February 10, 2012, 08:42:38 AM »

Offline Eja117

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I think we can contend but it will take possibly a good trade, acquisition, or injuries on other teams. I think we can contend next year if we get solid reinforcements like Green and draft picks, but Doc has to figure out how to use it all instead of running 35 year olds into the ground

Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #122 on: February 10, 2012, 08:50:55 AM »

Offline Rondo2287

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RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #123 on: February 10, 2012, 12:36:11 PM »

Offline greenlion

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anybody who thinks we can't go all the way are not real fans, where adversity covers the situation, it is FAITH that carries us through..we can and we will, you guys see...
 Do not label fellow posters in a way that is likely to provoke a negative response.  Dependent upon context, examples include, but are not limited to, "fake fan", "bandwagon fan", "not a real fan", "hater", "homer", "koolaid drinker", etc.
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Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #124 on: February 10, 2012, 12:39:03 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I will be delusional until we are eliminated from the playoffs. I find that a more pleasing way to go through the season.
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Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #125 on: February 10, 2012, 12:40:38 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  I'm just glad that the "we're not contenders" crowd has turned more into prairie dogs, popping up whenever the team falls flat, as opposed to the incessant, always in your face group they were earlier. It's a sign that the team's playing better.

Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #126 on: February 10, 2012, 12:41:18 PM »

Offline Chris

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I will be delusional until we are eliminated from the playoffs. I find that a more pleasing way to go through the season.

As do I.

And based on what I saw last night, and over the last few weeks in general, I think the team is close.  They still have some kinks to work out, and could really use one more quality player, but even with the roster they have right now, they can hang with the best teams in the league.  With the way injuries happen, and how fluky some things can be, that is enough for me to at least give them a chance.

Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #127 on: February 10, 2012, 12:41:39 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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I will be delusional until we are eliminated from the playoffs. I find that a more pleasing way to go through the season.


what part of RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE don't you understand, we need to have our pitchforks out and ready!
CB Draft LA Lakers: Lamarcus Aldridge, Carmelo Anthony,Jrue Holiday, Wes Matthews  6.11, 7.16, 8.14, 8.15, 9.16, 11.5, 11.16

Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #128 on: February 10, 2012, 12:45:34 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I will be delusional until we are eliminated from the playoffs. I find that a more pleasing way to go through the season.


what part of RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE don't you understand, we need to have our pitchforks out and ready!

  Funny.

Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #129 on: February 10, 2012, 12:54:06 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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I will be delusional until we are eliminated from the playoffs. I find that a more pleasing way to go through the season.

As do I.

And based on what I saw last night, and over the last few weeks in general, I think the team is close.  They still have some kinks to work out, and could really use one more quality player, but even with the roster they have right now, they can hang with the best teams in the league.  With the way injuries happen, and how fluky some things can be, that is enough for me to at least give them a chance.

They're close, but unless they can magically acquire a legitimate 5, they aren't going to make it.  JO needs to be coming off the bench, and I don't see KG, Bass, Wilcox, or Steamer as being legitimate options as the main player down low.  They need someone like...  oh, Pau Gasol, to give them an inside presence. 

Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #130 on: February 10, 2012, 12:57:04 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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  I'm just glad that the "we're not contenders" crowd has turned more into prairie dogs, popping up whenever the team falls flat, as opposed to the incessant, always in your face group they were earlier. It's a sign that the team's playing better.


I think that's part of it.  I also think part of it is that the majority of the people here agree with that sentiment so there's not much point in continually arguing it. 
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Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #131 on: February 10, 2012, 01:01:41 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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"It probably will, though, because the 12th pick has much higher trade value, and is more likely to get us a more valuable young asset than the 18th pick."




It's not really true that a 12th pick is all that likely to get us a more valuable young asset than the 18th pick.  If you look through the draft history, you'll find that the 12th pick of the draft has not consistently yielded a better player than the 18th pick.

The reason that they say the draft is a crap shoot is because it's true.  Once you get out of that top 5 "can't miss" range, things always get a little murky in the draft.  (Even in the top 5, it's generally not that cut and dried.)  So, not only do you have to get lucky in the sense that the ping pong balls fall right, but you also have to get lucky (and a little bit good) with the player that you select.

Danny's going to have two players somewhere in that 15 to 25 range this year.  And, although it is a crap shoot, good players consistently come out of that group.  With two shots at it, I like Danny's chances of making good on at least one of them in what they say is a deep draft. 



Having the 12th pick versus the 18th pick, though, would give us a significantly more valuable trade asset.  We'd have a much better chance of being able to move up into the top 10 by packaging that pick with the Clips pick.

In any case, this is kind of a pointless discussion because it's unlikely that there will be any decent moves out there to "blow up" the team and tank for the lottery.  Probably not worth it to tank the season just to get a late lottery pick.  In that sense, you're right.

My original point was mainly that there's a big difference between picking in the late lottery / mid 1st for a few years and tanking to pick in the top 5-10 for a few years. 

If you hang out on the edge of the playoffs, you need to get fantastically lucky in the draft or have a great free agent destination to land a star.

  I'm not sure I agree with your overall reasoning on this. You want to begin rebuilding as soon as it's clear we're not title contenders, that I can see. But the only way to get to be a title contender (at least at the level that you want) is to get a franchise player. In terms of reaching that goal, the 12th or 18th pick isn't going to make a huge difference, and arguably gettign a 6-8 pick won't either. Grab some decent young players in the draft without getting a superstar and your team will improve to the point that you're less likely to get a superstar in the draft.

What you're saying just suggests to me that a rebuilding effort has to be all-in.  You can't be half-committed to a rebuild.  That's why it requires support from ownership, because truly rebuilding will result in a team that's really bad and lacking in stars for at least a couple years, if not more.

After this season, we need to be all-in.  Minimum salary requirements mean it won't be possible to totally tank, but we can commit as little long term money as possible and only pick up role players + young players who need to be developed.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
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Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #132 on: February 10, 2012, 01:04:48 PM »

Offline Chris

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I will be delusional until we are eliminated from the playoffs. I find that a more pleasing way to go through the season.

As do I.

And based on what I saw last night, and over the last few weeks in general, I think the team is close.  They still have some kinks to work out, and could really use one more quality player, but even with the roster they have right now, they can hang with the best teams in the league.  With the way injuries happen, and how fluky some things can be, that is enough for me to at least give them a chance.

They're close, but unless they can magically acquire a legitimate 5, they aren't going to make it.  JO needs to be coming off the bench, and I don't see KG, Bass, Wilcox, or Steamer as being legitimate options as the main player down low.  They need someone like...  oh, Pau Gasol, to give them an inside presence. 

This is probably true (although they could get by with someone much less than Pau), however, the bottom line is they are much closer to contending than not right now.  And in a league where it is REALLY hard to contend, and there is a really good chance we won't see a contender in Boston for a number of years unless Danny performs a miracle, I'll take what I can get.

Right now, I would put the C's in the second tier of contenders.  They are below the Heat, Bulls, OKC, and Clippers, but are right there with the Lakers, Spurs, Philly, and Indy (in fact, I put them above the Spurs, Philly, and Indy).  At this point, thats enough for me to give it a shot.

Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #133 on: February 10, 2012, 01:15:27 PM »

Offline BballTim

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"It probably will, though, because the 12th pick has much higher trade value, and is more likely to get us a more valuable young asset than the 18th pick."




It's not really true that a 12th pick is all that likely to get us a more valuable young asset than the 18th pick.  If you look through the draft history, you'll find that the 12th pick of the draft has not consistently yielded a better player than the 18th pick.

The reason that they say the draft is a crap shoot is because it's true.  Once you get out of that top 5 "can't miss" range, things always get a little murky in the draft.  (Even in the top 5, it's generally not that cut and dried.)  So, not only do you have to get lucky in the sense that the ping pong balls fall right, but you also have to get lucky (and a little bit good) with the player that you select.

Danny's going to have two players somewhere in that 15 to 25 range this year.  And, although it is a crap shoot, good players consistently come out of that group.  With two shots at it, I like Danny's chances of making good on at least one of them in what they say is a deep draft. 



Having the 12th pick versus the 18th pick, though, would give us a significantly more valuable trade asset.  We'd have a much better chance of being able to move up into the top 10 by packaging that pick with the Clips pick.

In any case, this is kind of a pointless discussion because it's unlikely that there will be any decent moves out there to "blow up" the team and tank for the lottery.  Probably not worth it to tank the season just to get a late lottery pick.  In that sense, you're right.

My original point was mainly that there's a big difference between picking in the late lottery / mid 1st for a few years and tanking to pick in the top 5-10 for a few years. 

If you hang out on the edge of the playoffs, you need to get fantastically lucky in the draft or have a great free agent destination to land a star.

  I'm not sure I agree with your overall reasoning on this. You want to begin rebuilding as soon as it's clear we're not title contenders, that I can see. But the only way to get to be a title contender (at least at the level that you want) is to get a franchise player. In terms of reaching that goal, the 12th or 18th pick isn't going to make a huge difference, and arguably gettign a 6-8 pick won't either. Grab some decent young players in the draft without getting a superstar and your team will improve to the point that you're less likely to get a superstar in the draft.

What you're saying just suggests to me that a rebuilding effort has to be all-in.  You can't be half-committed to a rebuild.  That's why it requires support from ownership, because truly rebuilding will result in a team that's really bad and lacking in stars for at least a couple years, if not more.

After this season, we need to be all-in.  Minimum salary requirements mean it won't be possible to totally tank, but we can commit as little long term money as possible and only pick up role players + young players who need to be developed.

  What I'm saying is that your version of rebuilding seems to involve hanging around at the bottom of the league until we nab a franchise player, no matter how long it takes. That's not necessarily my view of what we need to do going forward.

Re: Let us stop the delusion , C's are clearly not contenders
« Reply #134 on: February 10, 2012, 01:19:29 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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"It probably will, though, because the 12th pick has much higher trade value, and is more likely to get us a more valuable young asset than the 18th pick."




It's not really true that a 12th pick is all that likely to get us a more valuable young asset than the 18th pick.  If you look through the draft history, you'll find that the 12th pick of the draft has not consistently yielded a better player than the 18th pick.

The reason that they say the draft is a crap shoot is because it's true.  Once you get out of that top 5 "can't miss" range, things always get a little murky in the draft.  (Even in the top 5, it's generally not that cut and dried.)  So, not only do you have to get lucky in the sense that the ping pong balls fall right, but you also have to get lucky (and a little bit good) with the player that you select.

Danny's going to have two players somewhere in that 15 to 25 range this year.  And, although it is a crap shoot, good players consistently come out of that group.  With two shots at it, I like Danny's chances of making good on at least one of them in what they say is a deep draft.  



Having the 12th pick versus the 18th pick, though, would give us a significantly more valuable trade asset.  We'd have a much better chance of being able to move up into the top 10 by packaging that pick with the Clips pick.

In any case, this is kind of a pointless discussion because it's unlikely that there will be any decent moves out there to "blow up" the team and tank for the lottery.  Probably not worth it to tank the season just to get a late lottery pick.  In that sense, you're right.

My original point was mainly that there's a big difference between picking in the late lottery / mid 1st for a few years and tanking to pick in the top 5-10 for a few years.  

If you hang out on the edge of the playoffs, you need to get fantastically lucky in the draft or have a great free agent destination to land a star.

  I'm not sure I agree with your overall reasoning on this. You want to begin rebuilding as soon as it's clear we're not title contenders, that I can see. But the only way to get to be a title contender (at least at the level that you want) is to get a franchise player. In terms of reaching that goal, the 12th or 18th pick isn't going to make a huge difference, and arguably gettign a 6-8 pick won't either. Grab some decent young players in the draft without getting a superstar and your team will improve to the point that you're less likely to get a superstar in the draft.

What you're saying just suggests to me that a rebuilding effort has to be all-in.  You can't be half-committed to a rebuild.  That's why it requires support from ownership, because truly rebuilding will result in a team that's really bad and lacking in stars for at least a couple years, if not more.

After this season, we need to be all-in.  Minimum salary requirements mean it won't be possible to totally tank, but we can commit as little long term money as possible and only pick up role players + young players who need to be developed.

  What I'm saying is that your version of rebuilding seems to involve hanging around at the bottom of the league until we nab a franchise player, no matter how long it takes. That's not necessarily my view of what we need to do going forward.

I understand that you're not fond of that strategy, but as I've explained, I see it as the only palatable option.  Otherwise, we're gearing up to be the Houston Rockets, or maybe at best the 76ers or the Hawks.  A nice young team headed nowhere.


It says a lot that if I had to bet money, I'd bet on the New Orleans Hornets or the Charlotte Bobcats winning a championship before I'd bet on the Rockets or the Hawks -- simply because the two former teams are set up to have very high draft picks for 2-3 seasons.
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