Early Season Lesson: Rondo Can't Carry a Team

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

No one player can carry a team (to a title, that is). Jordan didn't win a title until he had Pippin and some other solid talent around him; Bird wouldn't have won without the help of McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, etc.; Kobe wouldn't have won post-Shaq without Gasol.

[BballTim]

  If you've got any evidence that CP3 or DWill will ever be the best player on a championship team, or even come as close as Rondo already has I'd love to see it.

Do I really have to explain that CP3/Deron are undisputedly top 10 players, whereas Rondo is arguably top 20? Really? 

  First you should have someone explain the meaning of "undisputedly" to you, and we could go from there.

  So by your measure Rondo's carrying the Celts offense better than CP3 carried the Hornets last year, I think they were around 20th in efficiency. It's also farther than Wade can carry a team offensively, based on the Heat's play the year before LeBron got there. Need I go on?

The Hornets were 19th, yes, but actually with a better offensive efficiency -103 to this year's C's (100). Not that I should have to explain to you the difference in the supporting cast of last year's Hornets and this year's Celtics.

Give Paul some real teammates and suddenly the Clippers are 6th this year without time to gel.

And to your comment about the "productive bench" - there is one rotation ready player on the bench. One. Bass. That's it.

  Haha. When the Celts don't do great with Rondo, it shows that he's incapable of carrying the team. When the Hornets don't do well with CP3, it's a pile of excuses and explanations.

  And, oddly enough, those players who aren't "rotation ready players" have been rotation level players whenever healthy over their fairly lengthy careers, so I don't completely agree with that. They're probably getting about 30 points and 10-12 rebounds a game from their bench, which, again, isn't an awful amount of production.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Of courage can't. No one person can. But can he be a cornerstone of a franchise, I say YES.

He makes everybody better. And he can take over games, not in a scoring type of way but he sure can dictate the pace with his unselfishness, ability to drive to the hoop and score and defense.

Surround him with solid talent and they can carry a few chunks of that load.

[LB3533]

What does "carry a team" mean?

Rondo has "carried" a team...but that team was filled with multiple all-stars who were still playing at all-star or near all-star level.

Right now we don't have those other multiple all-stars playing at all-star level...we only have one other all-star playing well and that's Ray Allen.

I do not think Rondo can "carry" a team that is filled with rookies and young athletes. If the future team consists of Rondo being the "best" player and the "veteran", we are in for a long tenure of losing.

Rondo can certainly carry a team filled with multiple all-stars because each in turn make each look good and make things easier.

I seriously doubt, Danny Ainge can produce another team filled with multiple all-stars like we have had these last 4-5 years. But we will see. It will depend heavily on what players will sign with us next summer.

I think we will win 43-45 games this year, once everyone is back healthy and conditioned.

People think KG has been playing poorly, but he really hasn't.

KG only looks bad while he's playing cause he's older. When you are older, slower with no lift...it gives off the perception that you're playing bad.

KG's percentage from the field is down, but that will go way back up once his jumper falls. He's been missing a lot of open shots.

KG is also adjusting to Doc's new substitution usage. It's tough to play that way and play more at the 5...he's actually got 3 different things to adjust to...the playing time, more PT at the 5 and playing with a host of different teammates within each given game.

Pierce is the only one not playing up to his usual standards, but we need to give him a break cause he's trying to get back from injury.

I think the last game against Indy is the start of Paul's upward trend back. He's gonna go on a roll starting Monday night.

[BballTim]

What does "carry a team" mean?

Rondo has "carried" a team...but that team was filled with multiple all-stars who were still playing at all-star or near all-star level.

Right now we don't have those other multiple all-stars playing at all-star level...we only have one other all-star playing well and that's Ray Allen.

I do not think Rondo can "carry" a team that is filled with rookies and young athletes. If the future team consists of Rondo being the "best" player and the "veteran", we are in for a long tenure of losing.

Rondo can certainly carry a team filled with multiple all-stars because each in turn make each look good and make things easier.

I seriously doubt, Danny Ainge can produce another team filled with multiple all-stars like we have had these last 4-5 years. But we will see. It will depend heavily on what players will sign with us next summer.

  Again, nobody's really going to carry a team of rookies and young athletes very far. But, based on the assumption that Rondo can "carry" a team with multiple all-star or near all-star level players, would you think it would be easier for Danny to get a couple of all-star or near all-star level players, or to sign or draft a transcendent Shaq/TD/LeBron/whoever level of player?

[PosImpos]

Please name all the players who can carry their team in all facets in the league. And by all facets I assume you mean more than scoring. I have a hard problem counting more than 5 which is why I find this issue about Rondo's not being that kind of player irrelevant. Those kind of players are so hard to find and even harder to acquire that it is not like we can easily pick up one of them once Rondo is out of the picture.

Okay, I'll take the blame for not clarify what I mean by "carrying," although I think it's common sense that when people use that term they don't mean in every single facet of the game, just as they don't mean it literally.

When I say that a player is capable of "carrying" a team, I mean that they have one or two elite skills which impact the game in such a way that their team has the potential to be one of the best in the league provided that they have a competent supporting cast (note: "supporting cast" doesn't mean a bunch of All-Stars).

Dwight Howard, for example, impacts the game with his elite rebounding and defense in such a way that if you surround him with a competent supporting cast (like he had in '09), his team will have the potential to be one of the best in the league (if not the best).

The same goes for Durant, Dirk, Rose, Wade, and Kobe and their scoring, LeBron with his scoring, defense, and passing, and CP3 with his scoring, passing, and defense (though BBallTim is correct in pointing out that CP3 struggled to carry a team night after night when he was on the Hornets, but I think we could argue over whether or not that was a "competent" supporting cast).

Rondo has two elite skills, from what I can tell: his passing and his defense.  He does other things well, but not better than the vast majority of players at his position (or the league in general).  My assertion is that Rondo cannot elevate a team to contender status with his passing and defense alone if you simply surround him with a competent supporting cast.  You'd need to pair him with an elite scorer, or a dominant inside presence.  In other words, you'd need to pair him with a player who has a greater overall impact on the game, or multiple players with a similar impact on the game.


Now, you're absolutely correct in saying that there aren't many players in the league who fit that description.  But it is my contention that the only way to build a likely contender is to have such a player on your team, and I think that the last 30+ years of NBA Championship teams support that assertion.  Therefore, it is my belief that until you have such a player, nobody on your roster should be untouchable.  

Hence, I think it is silly when people act incredulous whenever anybody suggests that a smart rebuilding plan might not involve Rondo long-term.  It's been my impression, based upon what such people have said in the past, that they hold a belief that if Danny can simply acquire a cast of decent young players with varying, complementary talents, with Rondo as the clear-cut marquee player, the team could actually compete for a title.  I don't think we've seen anything from Rondo -- except for in a few stretches of a few games at a time -- to suggest that he could live up to that sort of expectation.


Now, all of that said, I think if you already have a bunch of weapons and supporting players on your roster, and you need somebody to make the offense cohesive and efficient, there's nobody in the league who can do that better while also adding a bunch of other things (such as defense, great rebounding for a guard, hustle plays, competitiveness, etc).  

For example, I think Rondo is the sort of player that a team like the Hawks desperately need.  With Rondo helming their offense, the Hawks could perhaps be a contender.  But they already have multiple All-Star talents on the roster.

[BballTim]

Please name all the players who can carry their team in all facets in the league. And by all facets I assume you mean more than scoring. I have a hard problem counting more than 5 which is why I find this issue about Rondo's not being that kind of player irrelevant. Those kind of players are so hard to find and even harder to acquire that it is not like we can easily pick up one of them once Rondo is out of the picture.

Okay, I'll take the blame for not clarify what I mean by "carrying," although I think it's common sense that when people use that term they don't mean in every single facet of the game, just as they don't mean it literally.

When I say that a player is capable of "carrying" a team, I mean that they have one or two elite skills which impact the game in such a way that their team has the potential to be one of the best in the league provided that they have a competent supporting cast (note: "supporting cast" doesn't mean a bunch of All-Stars).

  I don't understand this way of thinking. What's important is a player's impact on a game, not which skills are used to affect that outcome. Rose can have a great impact on one game with his scoring. Rondo can have a similar impact on another game with his scoring, rebounding, passing, defense and running of the offense. By you definition Rose carried his team while Rondo didn't because his impact didn't come from one or two elite skills.

  Being able to impact or even dominate a game in a number of ways shouldn't be seen as a shortcoming or a reason to keep you from a list of top players.

The same goes for Durant, Dirk, Rose, Wade, and Kobe and their scoring, LeBron with his scoring, defense, and passing, and CP3 with his scoring, passing, and defense (though BBallTim is correct in pointing out that CP3 struggled to carry a team night after night when he was on the Hornets, but I think we could argue over whether or not that was a "competent" supporting cast).

  Last year CP3 was on an anemic offensive team and put up 16/10. This year Rondo's been playing on an anemic offensive team and he's putting up 15/10. Apparently that 1 single point is the difference between being able to carry your team offensively and being a supporting player, I just don't see it though.

Rondo has two elite skills, from what I can tell: his passing and his defense.  He does other things well, but not better than the vast majority of players at his position (or the league in general).

  He dictates the pace of the game as well or better than anyone else in the league and also runs an offense as well or better than anyone else. He's also a very good rebounder for his position. In the playoffs he's been one of the better rebounding point guards of all time. He also makes players around him better with those skills. Again, total impact, not just individual production.

 My assertion is that Rondo cannot elevate a team to contender status with his passing and defense alone if you simply surround him with a competent supporting cast.  You'd need to pair him with an elite scorer, or a dominant inside presence.  In other words, you'd need to pair him with a player who has a greater overall impact on the game, or multiple players with a similar impact on the game.

  We haven't really had an elite scorer or a dominant inside presence for the last few years yet we've been contenders. You're claiming he can't do what he's already done.

Hence, I think it is silly when people act incredulous whenever anybody suggests that a smart rebuilding plan might not involve Rondo long-term.  It's been my impression, based upon what such people have said in the past, that they hold a belief that if Danny can simply acquire a cast of decent young players with varying, complementary talents, with Rondo as the clear-cut marquee player, the team could actually compete for a title.

  Obviously nobody's claiming that you can surround Rondo with some "decent young players" and compete for a title. You'd need to obviously have a couple of all-star level players along with him to do that. The same way you would with Chris Paul. The same way you did with Paul Pierce or Kevin Garnett. People have no trouble knocking Rondo for needing other good players to compete while, at the same time, explaining that great players like CP3 or Deron Williams haven't won anything because they haven't been surrounded by enough talent.

  Even if you think that Rondo needs to be on a team with a couple of all-stars to compete, don't you realize that it's probably easier to obtain a couple of all-star level players that get an "elite" player (and then, of course, the all-star player and very good player that the "elite" player needs to play with in order to contend for a title?

 

[CelticsFanNC]

Bottom line is, the difference between the Celtics now and when they were dominant is that Rondo keeps the ball in his hands waaaaaaay more each possession.

With this team, they are at their best when the ball moves and right now it is sticking every time down the floor. If we fix that problem, we begin to win.

  The difference between the Celtics now and when they were dominant is that Rondo NEEDS to keep the ball in his hands longer because the guys around him aren;t nearly as good as they were 2 or 3 years ago.

  Paul Pierce can't effectively create offense for himself or others like he once could.  Same with Ray Allen.  Love Ray's shot but he is a turnover machine when he handles the ball too much and relies on Rondo almost completely to get him the ball in his sweet spots.  KG, once deadly from mid range and a threat to go back door no longer does either at the level he once did.

  If Rondo is handling more it is out of necessity and because Doc is asking him to handle more.

[deekhead]

Bottom line is, the difference between the Celtics now and when they were dominant is that Rondo keeps the ball in his hands waaaaaaay more each possession.

With this team, they are at their best when the ball moves and right now it is sticking every time down the floor. If we fix that problem, we begin to win.

  The difference between the Celtics now and when they were dominant is that Rondo NEEDS to keep the ball in his hands longer because the guys around him aren;t nearly as good as they were 2 or 3 years ago.
  Paul Pierce can't effectively create offense for himself or others like he once could.  Same with Ray Allen.  Love Ray's shot but he is a turnover machine when he handles the ball too much and relies on Rondo almost completely to get him the ball in his sweet spots.  KG, once deadly from mid range and a threat to go back door no longer does either at the level he once did.

  If Rondo is handling more it is out of necessity and because Doc is asking him to handle more.

And Rondo HAS TO keep it in his hands longer because he isn't much better than he was 2-3 years ago.

DH

[Moranis]

No one player can carry a team (to a title, that is). Jordan didn't win a title until he had Pippin and some other solid talent around him; Bird wouldn't have won without the help of McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, etc.; Kobe wouldn't have won post-Shaq without Gasol.

There is a big difference between carrying a team to a title and carrying a team to even a .500 record and a playoff birth. 

[soap07]

 First you should have someone explain the meaning of "undisputedly" to you, and we could go from there.

Since  I have to literally spell everything out for you:

You're right. There are some that don't think that CP3/Deron are obvious top 10 players. Those of us that don't have the same eyesight as Ray Charles do.

 Haha. When the Celts don't do great with Rondo, it shows that he's incapable of carrying the team. When the Hornets don't do well with CP3, it's a pile of excuses and explanations.

Yeah! Who needs facts? And not to be factual here, the Hornets did better offensively than the Celtics are doing this year. Or is that an excuse? I can't decide. In fact, last year's Hornets would be a top 10 NBA offense  this year - with a garbage roster.

And also, more facts, with far less offensive talent, the Hornets virtually had as efficient as an offense last year. But guess which team had three All Stars?

 And, oddly enough, those players who aren't "rotation ready players" have been rotation level players whenever healthy over their fairly lengthy careers, so I don't completely agree with that. They're probably getting about 30 points and 10-12 rebounds a game from their bench, which, again, isn't an awful amount of production.

That's great. In the past, KG was a top 5 player. Of the bench players consistently getting rotation minutes, only one has  PER above 10 - Bass. Above 10! This is an awful bench. And it's so obvious that the bench has trouble scoring when it is on the court.

[cman88]

Bottom line is, the difference between the Celtics now and when they were dominant is that Rondo keeps the ball in his hands waaaaaaay more each possession.

With this team, they are at their best when the ball moves and right now it is sticking every time down the floor. If we fix that problem, we begin to win.

  The difference between the Celtics now and when they were dominant is that Rondo NEEDS to keep the ball in his hands longer because the guys around him aren;t nearly as good as they were 2 or 3 years ago.
  Paul Pierce can't effectively create offense for himself or others like he once could.  Same with Ray Allen.  Love Ray's shot but he is a turnover machine when he handles the ball too much and relies on Rondo almost completely to get him the ball in his sweet spots.  KG, once deadly from mid range and a threat to go back door no longer does either at the level he once did.

  If Rondo is handling more it is out of necessity and because Doc is asking him to handle more.

And Rondo HAS TO keep it in his hands longer because he isn't much better than he was 2-3 years ago.

DH

huh? hes not?? hes a better passer, shooter, scorer, defender...I think anyone can tell that Rondo has improved in every aspect of his game.

Celtics fans are a funny bunch...theyll whine and complain about their players while they are here to the point they want them traded...then once they are gone they will pine over them and elevate them to almost HOF status(tony allen, kendrick perkins to name a few)

such is the life of celticsblog I guess..

[CelticsFanNC]

Bottom line is, the difference between the Celtics now and when they were dominant is that Rondo keeps the ball in his hands waaaaaaay more each possession.

With this team, they are at their best when the ball moves and right now it is sticking every time down the floor. If we fix that problem, we begin to win.

  The difference between the Celtics now and when they were dominant is that Rondo NEEDS to keep the ball in his hands longer because the guys around him aren;t nearly as good as they were 2 or 3 years ago.
  Paul Pierce can't effectively create offense for himself or others like he once could.  Same with Ray Allen.  Love Ray's shot but he is a turnover machine when he handles the ball too much and relies on Rondo almost completely to get him the ball in his sweet spots.  KG, once deadly from mid range and a threat to go back door no longer does either at the level he once did.

  If Rondo is handling more it is out of necessity and because Doc is asking him to handle more.

And Rondo HAS TO keep it in his hands longer because he isn't much better than he was 2-3 years ago.

DH

  If you cannot see the improvement in Rondo's game from 3 years ago I can't help you.  Maybe you need glasses?  


  I don't get why so many people love to dog what is obviously the best player on this team right now.  He is not only the best player on this team right now he is also our most valuable asset.

  He cannot carry a team when that team has viable threats playing next to him?  Oh ya?  I recall him dominating playoff series' that included not only future HOFers KG, Pierce and Allen but also recent NBA MVP's LeBron James and Derek Rose in recent years.  

  Rondo is not the problem with the Boston Celtics in 2011-12.  His supporting cast is the problem.  They aren't hitting the open shots he is creating for them.  They aren't providing the help defense they once did which allowed him to be so effective pressuring the ball.   I love the Big Three  and appreciate what they have brought back to the Celtics as much as anyone but I'm not blind.  They aren't getting the job done.

  

[celticsleyte]

The Lakers would be an absolutely sick team with Rondo this year. I am just glad he is a Celtic.

[Celts Fan 92]

i've said it before nd i'll say it again I'm worried about a Rondo led team for the future between the play when he wants to attitude nd his lack of shooting iont see him having a whole lot of huge takeover games in the future