Author Topic: Rubio > Rondo, right?  (Read 41429 times)

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Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #150 on: January 19, 2012, 10:21:58 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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When you write that Rondo "disappears" in crunch time, which is the phrase that you used, for me to point out some of the other things he does to help the team down stretch is most certainly no straw man.  It couldn't be more relevant to the discussion of whether or not Rondo disappears down the stretch of close games.  


Clearly when I said he disappears in late games, I was saying that I don't appreciate hustle plays or defense.  That's obviously a fair extrapolation.


  What is a fair extrapolation? For starters, you obviously don't consider making big plays on defense or getting key rebounds or making key passes (for Rondo, at least) to be "stepping up". So I guess you appreciate them in the "they're nice plays to see but they don't make much difference in the outcome of the game, unlike scoring" kind of way. Or maybe I'm wrong, and it's more of a "I consider plays like that to be stepping up for players other than Rondo, much like passing".

Those are plays that happen in the flow of the game; they are reactionary.  Obviously, they are very important, but they don't involve Rondo taking control and asserting himself -- imposing his will on the game.

In what ways have we seen this team struggle late in games, time after time?  They fail to score; they take long jumpshots that don't fall; they stop attacking the rim; they have no inside game; the other team gets into the penalty and gets more free throws; the pace slows way, way down even when the Celtics have had the most success in transition / rapidly moving the ball earlier in the game; and so on.

Many of those issues could be solved if Rondo were more assertive, attacking the rim, keeping up the pace, continuing to run the offense instead of deferring to Pierce, taking shots as soon as he's given an open look instead of waiting to the last moment, and so on.
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Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #151 on: January 19, 2012, 10:24:06 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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  You're trying to tap dance on the head of a pin. It's one thing to change your argument because your original claim wasn't valid. It's another thing to claim that, in light of information that you were unaware of when you made your post, you're retroactively changing the meaning of what you said.



Have it your way, Tim.  This discussion is going nowhere, and there's no point of continuing to belabor the point.  I think we've already proven many times over in this thread and in others that you're going to interpret what I say however you like, regardless of what I explicitly tell you that I meant.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #152 on: January 19, 2012, 10:42:29 AM »

Offline BballTim

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  You're trying to tap dance on the head of a pin. It's one thing to change your argument because your original claim wasn't valid. It's another thing to claim that, in light of information that you were unaware of when you made your post, you're retroactively changing the meaning of what you said.

Have it your way, Tim.  This discussion is going nowhere, and there's no point of continuing to belabor the point.  I think we've already proven many times over in this thread and in others that you're going to interpret what I say however you like, regardless of what I explicitly tell you that I meant.

  If only what you explicitly tell me you meant was what you'd originally said.

 "As I already acknowledged in response to BBallTim's post, I was not aware about the stat that Rondo lead the league in assists per 48 in the 4th quarter last season.  My original post therefore had nothing to do with that"

  What this says (rather explicitly) is that your original post doesn't mean what people think it does because of something that was pointed out to you *after* you made the statement. You said what you said. You meant what you meant. Learning information that refutes your claim doesn't change the meaning of the original claim.

Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #153 on: January 19, 2012, 10:45:08 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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  If only what you explicitly tell me you meant was what you'd originally said.

 "As I already acknowledged in response to BBallTim's post, I was not aware about the stat that Rondo lead the league in assists per 48 in the 4th quarter last season.  My original post therefore had nothing to do with that"

  What this says (rather explicitly) is that your original post doesn't mean what people think it does because of something that was pointed out to you *after* you made the statement. You said what you said. You meant what you meant. Learning information that refutes your claim doesn't change the meaning of the original claim.


Tim, we're done here.  I've said my peace on this in a dozen different ways already.  Move on.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #154 on: January 19, 2012, 10:57:56 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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When you write that Rondo "disappears" in crunch time, which is the phrase that you used, for me to point out some of the other things he does to help the team down stretch is most certainly no straw man.  It couldn't be more relevant to the discussion of whether or not Rondo disappears down the stretch of close games.  


Clearly when I said he disappears in late games, I was saying that I don't appreciate hustle plays or defense.  That's obviously a fair extrapolation.


  What is a fair extrapolation? For starters, you obviously don't consider making big plays on defense or getting key rebounds or making key passes (for Rondo, at least) to be "stepping up". So I guess you appreciate them in the "they're nice plays to see but they don't make much difference in the outcome of the game, unlike scoring" kind of way. Or maybe I'm wrong, and it's more of a "I consider plays like that to be stepping up for players other than Rondo, much like passing".

Those are plays that happen in the flow of the game; they are reactionary.  Obviously, they are very important, but they don't involve Rondo taking control and asserting himself -- imposing his will on the game.

In what ways have we seen this team struggle late in games, time after time?  They fail to score; they take long jumpshots that don't fall; they stop attacking the rim; they have no inside game; the other team gets into the penalty and gets more free throws; the pace slows way, way down even when the Celtics have had the most success in transition / rapidly moving the ball earlier in the game; and so on.

Many of those issues could be solved if Rondo were more assertive, attacking the rim, keeping up the pace, continuing to run the offense instead of deferring to Pierce, taking shots as soon as he's given an open look instead of waiting to the last moment, and so on.

There's nothing "reactionary" about getting an offensive rebound or making other hustle plays that earn your team extra possessions.  Those kinds of plays that Rondo makes are very pro-active.  They help put points on the board and take away points from the opposition even if Rondo isn't the guy actually putting the ball in the hoop. 

You say that you understand this, and I'm sure you do, but based on your posts in this thread, it's also very clear to me that you severely undervalue these aspects of playing winning basketball.
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Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #155 on: January 19, 2012, 11:19:32 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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You say that you understand this, and I'm sure you do, but based on your posts in this thread, it's also very clear to me that you severely undervalue these aspects of playing winning basketball.

Well, however valuable they may be, Rondo's contributions in those areas haven't made the Celtics a good fourth quarter team for the past couple of years.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
- Doc Rivers

Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #156 on: January 19, 2012, 11:30:20 AM »

Offline BballTim

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You say that you understand this, and I'm sure you do, but based on your posts in this thread, it's also very clear to me that you severely undervalue these aspects of playing winning basketball.

Well, however valuable they may be, Rondo's contributions in those areas haven't made the Celtics a good fourth quarter team for the past couple of years.

  Yes, we were 28th in the league in 4th quarter scoring, which is pretty bad. But it's worth pointing out that in 2007-2008 we were 25th, so it's not like there's been a huge dropoff.

Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #157 on: January 19, 2012, 11:35:18 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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You say that you understand this, and I'm sure you do, but based on your posts in this thread, it's also very clear to me that you severely undervalue these aspects of playing winning basketball.

Well, however valuable they may be, Rondo's contributions in those areas haven't made the Celtics a good fourth quarter team for the past couple of years.

  Yes, we were 28th in the league in 4th quarter scoring, which is pretty bad. But it's worth pointing out that in 2007-2008 we were 25th, so it's not like there's been a huge dropoff.

Is that based on efficency or raw scoring?

Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #158 on: January 19, 2012, 11:39:09 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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You say that you understand this, and I'm sure you do, but based on your posts in this thread, it's also very clear to me that you severely undervalue these aspects of playing winning basketball.

Well, however valuable they may be, Rondo's contributions in those areas haven't made the Celtics a good fourth quarter team for the past couple of years.

  Yes, we were 28th in the league in 4th quarter scoring, which is pretty bad. But it's worth pointing out that in 2007-2008 we were 25th, so it's not like there's been a huge dropoff.

That statistic doesn't do much good unless you consider the circumstances. We blew out a pile of teams in 07-08, which means that the bench was closing out a lot of games.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #159 on: January 19, 2012, 11:41:56 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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You say that you understand this, and I'm sure you do, but based on your posts in this thread, it's also very clear to me that you severely undervalue these aspects of playing winning basketball.

Well, however valuable they may be, Rondo's contributions in those areas haven't made the Celtics a good fourth quarter team for the past couple of years.

  Yes, we were 28th in the league in 4th quarter scoring, which is pretty bad. But it's worth pointing out that in 2007-2008 we were 25th, so it's not like there's been a huge dropoff.

That statistic doesn't do much good unless you consider the circumstances. We blew out a pile of teams in 07-08, which means that the bench was closing out a lot of games.
Yeah the only numbers I can find are the raw scoring averages. Which since this Celtics team has always played really slow (and subjectively even slower in the fourth imo) aren't going to be very indicative of true offensive talent compared to faster paced teams.

Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #160 on: January 19, 2012, 11:44:01 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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That statistic doesn't do much good unless you consider the circumstances. We blew out a pile of teams in 07-08, which means that the bench was closing out a lot of games.
Yeah you can see that, the average margin through three quarters was +8.5 points. In the fourth quarter the average margin is just +.5 points for the 07-08 team.

Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #161 on: January 19, 2012, 11:51:42 AM »

Offline Eja117

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As the OP I admit this thread comes off a little like the old days when we wondered if we'd trade Rondo for Brandon Jennings back when that kid was all the rage. Nevertheless I think it's completely different. 

Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #162 on: January 19, 2012, 11:59:37 AM »

Offline BballTim

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You say that you understand this, and I'm sure you do, but based on your posts in this thread, it's also very clear to me that you severely undervalue these aspects of playing winning basketball.

Well, however valuable they may be, Rondo's contributions in those areas haven't made the Celtics a good fourth quarter team for the past couple of years.

  Yes, we were 28th in the league in 4th quarter scoring, which is pretty bad. But it's worth pointing out that in 2007-2008 we were 25th, so it's not like there's been a huge dropoff.

That statistic doesn't do much good unless you consider the circumstances. We blew out a pile of teams in 07-08, which means that the bench was closing out a lot of games.
Yeah the only numbers I can find are the raw scoring averages. Which since this Celtics team has always played really slow (and subjectively even slower in the fourth imo) aren't going to be very indicative of true offensive talent compared to faster paced teams.

  Not quite perfect in terms of math, but last year Ray played 94% of our clutch minutes (probably the most on the team) and we scored 97.1 points per 48. In 07-08 PP played 87% of our clutch minutes and we scored 97.1 points per 48. I couldn't find actual team stats so that's what I went with. In games with a final margin of 3 points or less we were 7-6 in 2007-2008 and 8-8 last year. So, not perfect comparison, but everything seems to point to similar late game production.

Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #163 on: January 19, 2012, 01:42:54 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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You say that you understand this, and I'm sure you do, but based on your posts in this thread, it's also very clear to me that you severely undervalue these aspects of playing winning basketball.

Well, however valuable they may be, Rondo's contributions in those areas haven't made the Celtics a good fourth quarter team for the past couple of years.

As the posts that follow this one indicate, it's difficult to concretely illustrate how good we have or have not been in previous years relative to other top teams in the league in fourth quarters.

If you have some definitive numbers on fourth quarter efficiencies over the last couple of seasons, please share. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Rubio > Rondo, right?
« Reply #164 on: January 19, 2012, 01:47:57 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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You say that you understand this, and I'm sure you do, but based on your posts in this thread, it's also very clear to me that you severely undervalue these aspects of playing winning basketball.

Well, however valuable they may be, Rondo's contributions in those areas haven't made the Celtics a good fourth quarter team for the past couple of years.

As the posts that follow this one indicate, it's difficult to concretely illustrate how good we have or have not been in previous years relative to other top teams in the league in fourth quarters.

If you have some definitive numbers on fourth quarter efficiencies over the last couple of seasons, please share. 

All I can is this -- have you watch this team play at all in the 4th quarter in the last 3 seasons?  If yes, have you forgotten all of the double digit leads given up, all of the offensive dry-spells, etc.  Remember Game 7 in the Finals?  I'm sure that you do.


I don't have statistics for you.  However, here's what Danny Ainge had to say on it:

Quote from: Kelly Dwyer
"I think there's two things that sort of stand out. I'm not taking a nine-game sample. I'm looking at what has been our pattern, and what has been our weakness, over the last three years with this group of guys," said Ainge. "For three years now, we have been the worst offensive rebounding team in basketball. The second thing is, the execution of our offense, our offensive efficiency in the last five minutes of the game, I think those two things have got to be improved. I don't necessarily know why that hasn't happened. It's not just personnel, because we've had a lot of good offensive rebounders on this team."
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
- Doc Rivers