Rubio > Rondo, right?

[PosImpos]

another thing about Rubio -- at a time in the game when Rondo tends to disappear and defer, Rubio steps up.

talkhoops Zach Harper
Ricky Rubio leads the NBA in 4th quarter assists this season at 30? That's not bad.

  I think this pretty much epitomizes your opinions on Rondo. Rubio leads the nba in 4th quarter assists this year and he's "stepping up". Rondo led the nba last year in assists/48 during crunch time and that's "disappearing".

Rondo gets assists in crunch time, it's true.  But he disappears in the sense that he always defers and avoids going to the line.  Rubio does no such thing.  Already he's made a reputation for himself as a player who isn't afraid to take a big shot late in a close game.

[BballTim]

another thing about Rubio -- at a time in the game when Rondo tends to disappear and defer, Rubio steps up.

talkhoops Zach Harper
Ricky Rubio leads the NBA in 4th quarter assists this season at 30? That's not bad.

  I think this pretty much epitomizes your opinions on Rondo. Rubio leads the nba in 4th quarter assists this year and he's "stepping up". Rondo led the nba last year in assists/48 during crunch time and that's "disappearing".

Rondo gets assists in crunch time, it's true.  But he disappears in the sense that he always defers and avoids going to the line.  Rubio does no such thing.  Already he's made a reputation for himself as a player who isn't afraid to take a big shot late in a close game.

  I see. So when you posted Rubio's 4th quarter assists with a comment about Rubio stepping up and  Rondo disappearing, you meant that the assists don't show anything and your comment was unrelated to the accompanying statistic.

[PosImpos]

another thing about Rubio -- at a time in the game when Rondo tends to disappear and defer, Rubio steps up.

talkhoops Zach Harper
Ricky Rubio leads the NBA in 4th quarter assists this season at 30? That's not bad.

  I think this pretty much epitomizes your opinions on Rondo. Rubio leads the nba in 4th quarter assists this year and he's "stepping up". Rondo led the nba last year in assists/48 during crunch time and that's "disappearing".

Rondo gets assists in crunch time, it's true.  But he disappears in the sense that he always defers and avoids going to the line.  Rubio does no such thing.  Already he's made a reputation for himself as a player who isn't afraid to take a big shot late in a close game.

  I see. So when you posted Rubio's 4th quarter assists with a comment about Rubio stepping up and  Rondo disappearing, you meant that the assists don't show anything and your comment was unrelated to the accompanying statistic.

You're correct in pointing out that there wasn't necessarily a strict correlation.  I didn't know about Rondo's crunch time assists statistic, but it is true that in watching Rondo I have noticed that he consistently defers to others when the game gets tight, especially in terms of scoring but also in terms of handing the ball off to Pierce or KG and letting them make something happen.

I posted Harper's tweet about Rubio more as an interesting observation made by somebody else, which coupled with anecdotal evidence that I have read about Rubio suggests to me that unlike Rondo he does not take a step back from the spotlight in crunch time.

I don't think I'm alone in noticing that time and time again Rondo has disappeared in the 4th quarter in close games, even when he's been dominating up until that point.  A large part of it, I think, is a certain timidness created by his inability to consistently hit free throws.  My conjecture is that in addition to that, Rondo shares KG's lack of desire to be "the guy" when it comes to taking over every possession late in a game (whereas that's what Pierce lives for).

Perhaps when Pierce is gone -- if Rondo is still on the team -- we will see Rondo step up late in games.  But up until this point, I don't think we've seen that much.  He has made some very key assists late in games, which is obviously very important; but especially for a team that has had serious problems scoring late in games over the last few years, you'd hope that the designated "best player" would be able to step up, especially in games where he's shown an ability to slice through the defense and score in earlier quarters.


Also, I'd like to clarify that none of this is meant to suggest that Rubio is currently better than Rondo, as the original post posits.  I don't think that's the case at all, though it says a lot about Rubio that there's even a discussion to be had about that this early in his career.

[KGs Knee]

There's probably people on this blog who still believe Devin Harris and Mo Williams are better than Rondo.  Heck, I bet people still pine for Sebass.

Whatever!  

[PosImpos]

There's probably people on this blog who still believe Devin Harris and Mo Williams are better than Rondo.  Heck, I bet people still pine for Sebass.

Whatever!   

I don't know about that, but I know one thing for sure -- people love straw man arguments on this blog, especially those who defend Rondo against any and all criticism.

[BballTim]

Whatever happened to the "Rondo makes the C's better shooters" argument?  I guess it was really Pierce's and KG's ability to make the shot than Rondo's incredibly accurate passing and vision that made the ball go in. 

  The argument still holds. When Rubio (for example) is in the game, the Wolves hit 44% of their shots, 34% of their threes. When he's on the bench, they hit 41% of their shots and 33% of their threes.

  When Rondo's in the Celts hit 46% of their shots and 48% of their threes. When he's on the bench they hit 40% of their shots, 30% of their threes. I guess it is Rondo's incredibly accurate passing and vision, just harder for some to notice.

  It's also the main flaws of threads like these who compare Rondo to other point guards simply by comparing their individual production. Rondo has always been able to have a big impact on a game without having big stats, it sets him apart from other players.

[KGs Knee]

There's probably people on this blog who still believe Devin Harris and Mo Williams are better than Rondo.  Heck, I bet people still pine for Sebass.

Whatever!   

I don't know about that, but I know one thing for sure -- people love straw man arguments on this blog, especially those who defend Rondo against any and all criticism.

Criticizing Rondo on his weaknesses is one thing.  Claiming some rookie who has yet to prove anything in this league for any prolonged period of time is another.

It just seems to me some people almost want other players to be "better", so they can feel justified in their position about Rondo.  Maybe Rubio will prove it some day, maybe he won't.  Proclaiming it so soon just seems to be an agenda based argument.

Thus the dismissive eye roll.

[PosImpos]

Whatever happened to the "Rondo makes the C's better shooters" argument?  I guess it was really Pierce's and KG's ability to make the shot than Rondo's incredibly accurate passing and vision that made the ball go in. 

  The argument still holds. When Rubio (for example) is in the game, the Wolves hit 44% of their shots, 34% of their threes. When he's on the bench, they hit 41% of their shots and 33% of their threes.

  When Rondo's in the Celts hit 46% of their shots and 48% of their threes. When he's on the bench they hit 40% of their shots, 30% of their threes. I guess it is Rondo's incredibly accurate passing and vision, just harder for some to notice.

  It's also the main flaws of threads like these who compare Rondo to other point guards simply by comparing their individual production. Rondo has always been able to have a big impact on a game without having big stats, it sets him apart from other players.

Indeed, very good passers like Rubio, Rondo, Nash, Kidd etc have an intangible effect on their teams' offense (not saying they are all equal, but that they have similar effects). 

There's a reason why a hugely disproportionate number of the best teams in league history in terms of scoring have been led by Steve Nash.

Just as people who look solely at Rondo's #'s tend to undervalue his overall impact, so do people who look at Steve Nash's numbers and discount his impact based solely on the fact that he's a poor defender.  The effect that he's had on his teams' offensive production throughout his career is so astounding that his weakness as a defender should by no means detract a great deal from his status as a truly great player.

[pearljammer10]

I mean if Kahn went nuts, forgiving the money aspect of things, and offered Rubio for Rondo we should accept it in a nano second and send our best apple pie too, right? 

Mmmm.. No.



Rubio has played well. But he is getting big minutes on a bad team. I mean, seriously?

[BballTim]

another thing about Rubio -- at a time in the game when Rondo tends to disappear and defer, Rubio steps up.

talkhoops Zach Harper
Ricky Rubio leads the NBA in 4th quarter assists this season at 30? That's not bad.

  I think this pretty much epitomizes your opinions on Rondo. Rubio leads the nba in 4th quarter assists this year and he's "stepping up". Rondo led the nba last year in assists/48 during crunch time and that's "disappearing".

Rondo gets assists in crunch time, it's true.  But he disappears in the sense that he always defers and avoids going to the line.  Rubio does no such thing.  Already he's made a reputation for himself as a player who isn't afraid to take a big shot late in a close game.

  I see. So when you posted Rubio's 4th quarter assists with a comment about Rubio stepping up and  Rondo disappearing, you meant that the assists don't show anything and your comment was unrelated to the accompanying statistic.

You're correct in pointing out that there wasn't necessarily a strict correlation.  I didn't know about Rondo's crunch time assists statistic, but it is true that in watching Rondo I have noticed that he consistently defers to others when the game gets tight, especially in terms of scoring but also in terms of handing the ball off to Pierce or KG and letting them make something happen.

  In general this has been true but much less so this year. In the past Rondo's given the ball to PP late in the game and let Paul run the offense. They haven't been doing that this year.

I don't think I'm alone in noticing that time and time again Rondo has disappeared in the 4th quarter in close games, even when he's been dominating up until that point.  A large part of it, I think, is a certain timidness created by his inability to consistently hit free throws.  My conjecture is that in addition to that, Rondo shares KG's lack of desire to be "the guy" when it comes to taking over every possession late in a game (whereas that's what Pierce lives for).

  Some of it may be timidness on Rondo's part but I would assume a lot of it is the makeup of the team. If you're Doc and you're down to your last 2 possessions, who do you want to have the ball and take the shot, Rondo or PP or RA?

[PosImpos]

Some of it may be timidness on Rondo's part but I would assume a lot of it is the makeup of the team. If you're Doc and you're down to your last 2 possessions, who do you want to have the ball and take the shot, Rondo or PP or RA?

If Rondo has been scoring effectively throughout the rest of the game, I'd like to see him try to keep putting pressure on the opposing defense regardless of what quarter it is, or what the score is.  It's very frustrating to see Rondo score 15-20 pts early in the game by pushing the tempo and slashing to the rack, only to see him back off and defer to Paul Pierce's plodding, use-up-the-shot-clock, iso-and-fall-away style late in games, even when that hasn't been what has allowed the team to score most of its points earlier on.

[Boris Badenov]

Rondo's net plus/minus this year is +24.9, which is a stunningly high number. Part of this probably comes from the fact that Dooling has been playing poorly - but still.

Rubio's net plus/minus is +21.0, which is also exceptional, particularly for a rookie.

Beyond that I have watched most games by both teams. Both players completely change the offensive capabilities of the team when they enter the game. Rubio is a better offensive player, even at this early stage - he's a better and more aggressive shooter, and seems to be a good clutch scorer as well. Rondo is probably better in the half court, in terms of setting players up. Both are great in transition.

On defense I'd grade them as pretty similar. I think Rondo is a better one-on-one defender, but Rubio is deadly in the passing lanes because of his length.

One thing I've noticed is that Rondo's playing style can really fluctuate. I mean, we've all seen this, where he just takes over in one game and disappears the next. Rubio seems to always play in high gear.

At this point, I'd take Rondo to win a championship this year. But I'd trade him for Rubio because I really believe that Rubio is potentially a franchise player. Rondo is close but not quite on that level, to me.

[kozlodoev]

Whatever happened to the "Rondo makes the C's better shooters" argument?  I guess it was really Pierce's and KG's ability to make the shot than Rondo's incredibly accurate passing and vision that made the ball go in. 

  The argument still holds. When Rubio (for example) is in the game, the Wolves hit 44% of their shots, 34% of their threes. When he's on the bench, they hit 41% of their shots and 33% of their threes.

  When Rondo's in the Celts hit 46% of their shots and 48% of their threes. When he's on the bench they hit 40% of their shots, 30% of their threes. I guess it is Rondo's incredibly accurate passing and vision, just harder for some to notice.

  It's also the main flaws of threads like these who compare Rondo to other point guards simply by comparing their individual production. Rondo has always been able to have a big impact on a game without having big stats, it sets him apart from other players.

This is not a particularly solid argument, since the mix of players is different when Rondo/Rubio are on an off the floor. The rigorous way to do it is to compare the player/minute weighted average of that mix's shooting percentage with Rondo on and off the floor.

[BballTim]

There's probably people on this blog who still believe Devin Harris and Mo Williams are better than Rondo.  Heck, I bet people still pine for Sebass.

Whatever!   

I don't know about that, but I know one thing for sure -- people love straw man arguments on this blog, especially those who defend Rondo against any and all criticism.

  Yes. Kind of like the straw man a day or two ago, the one about people claiming that you can surround Rondo with a bunch of role players and still compete for a title. Oh, wait! I guess that tactic's employed by people who criticize Rondo at every opportunity.

[PosImpos]

There's probably people on this blog who still believe Devin Harris and Mo Williams are better than Rondo.  Heck, I bet people still pine for Sebass.

Whatever!   

I don't know about that, but I know one thing for sure -- people love straw man arguments on this blog, especially those who defend Rondo against any and all criticism.

  Yes. Kind of like the straw man a day or two ago, the one about people claiming that you can surround Rondo with a bunch of role players and still compete for a title. Oh, wait! I guess that tactic's employed by people who criticize Rondo at every opportunity.

Of course, by "people" you mean me.  Well, I've heard that specific argument before.  Granted, I can't give you any specific quotes, but some people on this forum have definitely proposed that we can compete moving forward by just surrounding Rondo with some athletic role players and playing an up-tempo style.

On the other hand, I've never seen anybody suggest that Devin Harris, Mo Williams, or Sebastian Telfair are better than Rondo (at least not in the last 4 years with respect to the latter).