Give them a chance, at least.

[Fafnir]

Can anyone actually give me an example of a team that was awful and tanked for a few years and that helped them win a championship? Seriously, has that ever actually happened? Rebuilding =/= tanking.

Oklahoma City Thunder.  They are currently poised to be one of the best teams in the league for roughly the next decade.  They made smart moves and they drafted well.  They selected Durant #2, Westbrook #4, and Harden #3.

Miami never wins a title unless they draft Wade #5.  San Antonio never wins unless they draft Robinson #1 and then Duncan #1.  The Celtics never win in '08 without the #5 pick in the '07 draft.

Heck, look at the guys who have dominated the league for the past thirty years.  

Kareem. Bird, McHale, Parish. Magic. Jordan. Isiah. Hakeem. Shaq.

All top 10 picks.  The only team that's won multiple titles with main guys they didn't draft is the Lakers, because they can draw big name free agents like no other team.

For every OKC Thunder who drafts well there are 4 to 5 teams who aren't so lucky/skilled in the lottery.

Portland, Atlanta, Toronto, Washington, Memphis, Charlotte etc...

Drafting high during a full on "rebuild" is a game 4 or 5 teams try every year. Most of them fail to acquire franchise altering talent, some fail to acquire any useful talent.

I'd rather try to use salary cap space and one high level young player and build something then embark on a four year project of hoping ping pong balls bounce our way. (and that the crop of talent is worth the buzz)

[Evantime34]

Can anyone actually give me an example of a team that was awful and tanked for a few years and that helped them win a championship? Seriously, has that ever actually happened? Rebuilding =/= tanking.

Oklahoma City Thunder.  They are currently poised to be one of the best teams in the league for roughly the next decade.  They made smart moves and they drafted well.  They selected Durant #2, Westbrook #4, and Harden #3.

Miami never wins a title unless they draft Wade #5.  San Antonio never wins unless they draft Robinson #1 and then Duncan #1.  The Celtics never win in '08 without the #5 pick in the '07 draft.

Heck, look at the guys who have dominated the league for the past thirty years.  

Kareem. Bird, McHale, Parish. Magic. Jordan. Isiah. Hakeem. Shaq.

All top 10 picks.  The only team that's won multiple titles with main guys they didn't draft is the Lakers, because they can draw big name free agents like no other team.

For every OKC Thunder who drafts well there are 4 to 5 teams who aren't so lucky/skilled in the lottery.

Portland, Atlanta, Toronto, Washington, Memphis, Charlotte etc...

Drafting high during a full on "rebuild" is a game 4 or 5 teams try every year. Most of them fail to acquire franchise altering talent, some fail to acquire any useful talent.

I'd rather try to use salary cap space and one high level young player and build something then embark on a four year project of hoping ping pong balls bounce our way. (and that the crop of talent is worth the buzz)

You can also use a high pick to trade for a good player like Ray Allen.

[Fafnir]

Can anyone actually give me an example of a team that was awful and tanked for a few years and that helped them win a championship? Seriously, has that ever actually happened? Rebuilding =/= tanking.

Oklahoma City Thunder.  They are currently poised to be one of the best teams in the league for roughly the next decade.  They made smart moves and they drafted well.  They selected Durant #2, Westbrook #4, and Harden #3.

Miami never wins a title unless they draft Wade #5.  San Antonio never wins unless they draft Robinson #1 and then Duncan #1.  The Celtics never win in '08 without the #5 pick in the '07 draft.

Heck, look at the guys who have dominated the league for the past thirty years.  

Kareem. Bird, McHale, Parish. Magic. Jordan. Isiah. Hakeem. Shaq.

All top 10 picks.  The only team that's won multiple titles with main guys they didn't draft is the Lakers, because they can draw big name free agents like no other team.

For every OKC Thunder who drafts well there are 4 to 5 teams who aren't so lucky/skilled in the lottery.

Portland, Atlanta, Toronto, Washington, Memphis, Charlotte etc...

Drafting high during a full on "rebuild" is a game 4 or 5 teams try every year. Most of them fail to acquire franchise altering talent, some fail to acquire any useful talent.

I'd rather try to use salary cap space and one high level young player and build something then embark on a four year project of hoping ping pong balls bounce our way. (and that the crop of talent is worth the buzz)

You can also use a high pick to trade for a good player like Ray Allen.

Yes you can, but unless you have other good players that alone won't get you beyond the "dreaded" middle that Pos is pushing hard for us to avoid with a team built around Rondo and whomever else DA brings in.

To compete in the NBA you need either a deep cast of all-star quality players or 1 or 2 MVP/all-nba caliber guys with role players to fill the rest of the roster out.

[Snakehead]

I am with you guys.  The LAST thing I want is to be middle of the pack.  That being said, this year I am totally locked in and we owe it to the Big Three/Four era to see this out.  We do have a chance.  No one would of thought Dallas could of won last year either.

But once it's over, I hope we go to the draft. The free agent situation for the next few years looks pretty dismal to me, while the young talent in the draft looks quite promising. Also, Rondo could be a part of the team, I don't think he can't like everyone seems to assume.

I don't think Rondo or Ainge is so blind they don't see that Rondo needs talent around him to succeed, that is how it is being a pass first PG to the extent Rondo is.  But you put the right pieces from the draft around Rondo and he makes them all better and makes it easier for them to contribute.  There is a lot of value to that.

[ianboyextreme]

   Winning or rebuilding is a false dilemma.  There is no law that says you have to be terrible before you can win.  Good management, coaching and smart drafting will allow you to remain good.  Spurs had 2nd best record in NBA, but got into the lottery by drafting a good player, coaching him well and trading him for a higher value.  Also like what we did with Perkins. 
1 Some teams have championship talent, but no future assets (Miami, New York, LA).  Some teams have assets but no championship talent (New Orleans, Cleveland).  We have both in four all-stars, numerous picks, and young players with upside.
2 Most contenders have little flexibility with their cap going forward (LA, Miami, NY).  We have a ton of cap space, and one of the best contracts in the league. 
3 Some teams have questions about their coaching (LAL, LAC, Miami, NY).  We have one of the best locked in.
4 We have no bad contracts to hold us back. (Luke Walton, Artest, Mike Miller, Turkoglu, Johnson, Boozer, Chandler)
5 We are one of the larger markets, with a very winning tradition. 
   We don't have to choose between winning now and building for the future.  Danny has put us in a position to do both.   

Yeah, I think we have one of the best setups for the future of any aging team.

[BballTim]

Can anyone actually give me an example of a team that was awful and tanked for a few years and that helped them win a championship? Seriously, has that ever actually happened? Rebuilding =/= tanking.

Oklahoma City Thunder.  They are currently poised to be one of the best teams in the league for roughly the next decade.  They made smart moves and they drafted well.  They selected Durant #2, Westbrook #4, and Harden #3.

Miami never wins a title unless they draft Wade #5.  San Antonio never wins unless they draft Robinson #1 and then Duncan #1.  The Celtics never win in '08 without the #5 pick in the '07 draft.

Heck, look at the guys who have dominated the league for the past thirty years.  

Kareem. Bird, McHale, Parish. Magic. Jordan. Isiah. Hakeem. Shaq.

All top 10 picks.  The only team that's won multiple titles with main guys they didn't draft is the Lakers, because they can draw big name free agents like no other team.

For every OKC Thunder who drafts well there are 4 to 5 teams who aren't so lucky/skilled in the lottery.

Portland, Atlanta, Toronto, Washington, Memphis, Charlotte etc...

Drafting high during a full on "rebuild" is a game 4 or 5 teams try every year. Most of them fail to acquire franchise altering talent, some fail to acquire any useful talent.

I'd rather try to use salary cap space and one high level young player and build something then embark on a four year project of hoping ping pong balls bounce our way. (and that the crop of talent is worth the buzz)

You can also use a high pick to trade for a good player like Ray Allen.

Yes you can, but unless you have other good players that alone won't get you beyond the "dreaded" middle that Pos is pushing hard for us to avoid with a team built around Rondo and whomever else DA brings in.

To compete in the NBA you need either a deep cast of all-star quality players or 1 or 2 MVP/all-nba caliber guys with role players to fill the rest of the roster out.

  Tanking doesn't really keep you from ending up in the middle either. You suck for a few years and get high draft picks that are good players but not superstars. You become a team that finishes a few spots better than the bottom. What then? Give away those players and go back to the bottom, hoping to hit on that rare franchise player, and repeat the process until you succeed?

  

[Snakehead]

Can anyone actually give me an example of a team that was awful and tanked for a few years and that helped them win a championship? Seriously, has that ever actually happened? Rebuilding =/= tanking.

Oklahoma City Thunder.  They are currently poised to be one of the best teams in the league for roughly the next decade.  They made smart moves and they drafted well.  They selected Durant #2, Westbrook #4, and Harden #3.

Miami never wins a title unless they draft Wade #5.  San Antonio never wins unless they draft Robinson #1 and then Duncan #1.  The Celtics never win in '08 without the #5 pick in the '07 draft.

Heck, look at the guys who have dominated the league for the past thirty years.  

Kareem. Bird, McHale, Parish. Magic. Jordan. Isiah. Hakeem. Shaq.

All top 10 picks.  The only team that's won multiple titles with main guys they didn't draft is the Lakers, because they can draw big name free agents like no other team.

For every OKC Thunder who drafts well there are 4 to 5 teams who aren't so lucky/skilled in the lottery.

Portland, Atlanta, Toronto, Washington, Memphis, Charlotte etc...

Drafting high during a full on "rebuild" is a game 4 or 5 teams try every year. Most of them fail to acquire franchise altering talent, some fail to acquire any useful talent.

I'd rather try to use salary cap space and one high level young player and build something then embark on a four year project of hoping ping pong balls bounce our way. (and that the crop of talent is worth the buzz)

You can also use a high pick to trade for a good player like Ray Allen.

Yes you can, but unless you have other good players that alone won't get you beyond the "dreaded" middle that Pos is pushing hard for us to avoid with a team built around Rondo and whomever else DA brings in.

To compete in the NBA you need either a deep cast of all-star quality players or 1 or 2 MVP/all-nba caliber guys with role players to fill the rest of the roster out.

  Tanking doesn't really keep you from ending up in the middle either. You suck for a few years and get high draft picks that are good players but not superstars. You become a team that finishes a few spots better than the bottom. What then? Give away those players and go back to the bottom, hoping to hit on that rare franchise player, and repeat the process until you succeed?

I think that is exactly what you do. Trade the young players for picks or whatever you can to keep hitting the draft til you get lucky.  OR, you find the right trade partner and trade away your assets (as we did in aquiring KG and Ray).

It's not pretty but I don't see how else it works.  You can get lucky a few times like OKC, or maybe you won't for a long time like say the Clippers.  But eventually, you can land a Blake Griffin type player like they did, and that can cause all your bad luck to turn around.

I really don't want to watch a long rebuilding process, but if it can result in a Blake Griffin or Kevin Durant type player ending up here, or having the assets to pull of the KG and Ray aquisiton, then bring it on.

[PosImpos]

Can anyone actually give me an example of a team that was awful and tanked for a few years and that helped them win a championship? Seriously, has that ever actually happened? Rebuilding =/= tanking.

Oklahoma City Thunder.  They are currently poised to be one of the best teams in the league for roughly the next decade.  They made smart moves and they drafted well.  They selected Durant #2, Westbrook #4, and Harden #3.

Miami never wins a title unless they draft Wade #5.  San Antonio never wins unless they draft Robinson #1 and then Duncan #1.  The Celtics never win in '08 without the #5 pick in the '07 draft.

Heck, look at the guys who have dominated the league for the past thirty years. 

Kareem. Bird, McHale, Parish. Magic. Jordan. Isiah. Hakeem. Shaq.

All top 10 picks.  The only team that's won multiple titles with main guys they didn't draft is the Lakers, because they can draw big name free agents like no other team.

For every OKC Thunder who drafts well there are 4 to 5 teams who aren't so lucky/skilled in the lottery.

Portland, Atlanta, Toronto, Washington, Memphis, Charlotte etc...

Drafting high during a full on "rebuild" is a game 4 or 5 teams try every year. Most of them fail to acquire franchise altering talent, some fail to acquire any useful talent.

I'd rather try to use salary cap space and one high level young player and build something then embark on a four year project of hoping ping pong balls bounce our way. (and that the crop of talent is worth the buzz)

You can also use a high pick to trade for a good player like Ray Allen.

Yes you can, but unless you have other good players that alone won't get you beyond the "dreaded" middle that Pos is pushing hard for us to avoid with a team built around Rondo and whomever else DA brings in.

To compete in the NBA you need either a deep cast of all-star quality players or 1 or 2 MVP/all-nba caliber guys with role players to fill the rest of the roster out.

  Tanking doesn't really keep you from ending up in the middle either. You suck for a few years and get high draft picks that are good players but not superstars. You become a team that finishes a few spots better than the bottom. What then? Give away those players and go back to the bottom, hoping to hit on that rare franchise player, and repeat the process until you succeed?

 

basically.

welcome to the NBA, where it sucks to not be a contender, especially if your city isn't a free agent destination minus any young superstars already playing there.

[MBunge]

The whole "getting bad to get good thing" only works if you luck into a franchise altering talent  Sometimes there's no such talent in a draft and there's usually not more than 2 or 3 at most.  The best course over the long haul is exactly what Danny did to enable him to bring in KG and Ray.  Draft well, accumulate assets and structure cap space so that you can make a big deal when one presents itself.

Mike

[KGHurtYourFeelings]

every team and every fanbase in the league "wants" a championship.  wanting it isn't enough -- you have to have the talent on the roster, and the proper amount of luck.

i can appreciate sentimentality and loyalty to players you've come to know and love.  i appreciate your optimism, though i do not share it. 

it is your prerogative to believe the celtics are a championship caliber team as constructed; however, i do not agree. 

it is your prerogative to believe that keeping the team together for one more run, and remaining loyal to long-term celtics, regardless of championship chances or implications for rebuilding, is what matters.  i do not agree.

i believe in making whatever changes necessary to bring the celtics closer to a championship, closer to being a perennial top-of-the-league contender every year.  that includes completely blowing up the roster, even tanking for a few years, if that's what it takes.  as long as there is a plan that doesn't involve settling for NBA purgatory for the sake of loyalty and "the Celtic way."

I agree.  However, I would not blow up this teem, only because I doubt that we can do anything to make ourselves better, and purely as a sentimental fan, I want to see the big 3 have their last run. 

And I wouldn't count them out of the running before the season started, and I'm certainly hopeful, but im not betting on a C's championship

[BballTim]

Can anyone actually give me an example of a team that was awful and tanked for a few years and that helped them win a championship? Seriously, has that ever actually happened? Rebuilding =/= tanking.

Oklahoma City Thunder.  They are currently poised to be one of the best teams in the league for roughly the next decade.  They made smart moves and they drafted well.  They selected Durant #2, Westbrook #4, and Harden #3.

Miami never wins a title unless they draft Wade #5.  San Antonio never wins unless they draft Robinson #1 and then Duncan #1.  The Celtics never win in '08 without the #5 pick in the '07 draft.

Heck, look at the guys who have dominated the league for the past thirty years. 

Kareem. Bird, McHale, Parish. Magic. Jordan. Isiah. Hakeem. Shaq.

All top 10 picks.  The only team that's won multiple titles with main guys they didn't draft is the Lakers, because they can draw big name free agents like no other team.

For every OKC Thunder who drafts well there are 4 to 5 teams who aren't so lucky/skilled in the lottery.

Portland, Atlanta, Toronto, Washington, Memphis, Charlotte etc...

Drafting high during a full on "rebuild" is a game 4 or 5 teams try every year. Most of them fail to acquire franchise altering talent, some fail to acquire any useful talent.

I'd rather try to use salary cap space and one high level young player and build something then embark on a four year project of hoping ping pong balls bounce our way. (and that the crop of talent is worth the buzz)

You can also use a high pick to trade for a good player like Ray Allen.

Yes you can, but unless you have other good players that alone won't get you beyond the "dreaded" middle that Pos is pushing hard for us to avoid with a team built around Rondo and whomever else DA brings in.

To compete in the NBA you need either a deep cast of all-star quality players or 1 or 2 MVP/all-nba caliber guys with role players to fill the rest of the roster out.

  Tanking doesn't really keep you from ending up in the middle either. You suck for a few years and get high draft picks that are good players but not superstars. You become a team that finishes a few spots better than the bottom. What then? Give away those players and go back to the bottom, hoping to hit on that rare franchise player, and repeat the process until you succeed?

 

basically.

welcome to the NBA, where it sucks to not be a contender, especially if your city isn't a free agent destination minus any young superstars already playing there.

  Funny, but a lot of the people who say that it sucks to not be a contender are in an inordinate rush to leave that status for the smallish chance that rebuilding a year earlier will somehow hasten our return to the top.

[PosImpos]

Can anyone actually give me an example of a team that was awful and tanked for a few years and that helped them win a championship? Seriously, has that ever actually happened? Rebuilding =/= tanking.

Oklahoma City Thunder.  They are currently poised to be one of the best teams in the league for roughly the next decade.  They made smart moves and they drafted well.  They selected Durant #2, Westbrook #4, and Harden #3.

Miami never wins a title unless they draft Wade #5.  San Antonio never wins unless they draft Robinson #1 and then Duncan #1.  The Celtics never win in '08 without the #5 pick in the '07 draft.

Heck, look at the guys who have dominated the league for the past thirty years. 

Kareem. Bird, McHale, Parish. Magic. Jordan. Isiah. Hakeem. Shaq.

All top 10 picks.  The only team that's won multiple titles with main guys they didn't draft is the Lakers, because they can draw big name free agents like no other team.

For every OKC Thunder who drafts well there are 4 to 5 teams who aren't so lucky/skilled in the lottery.

Portland, Atlanta, Toronto, Washington, Memphis, Charlotte etc...

Drafting high during a full on "rebuild" is a game 4 or 5 teams try every year. Most of them fail to acquire franchise altering talent, some fail to acquire any useful talent.

I'd rather try to use salary cap space and one high level young player and build something then embark on a four year project of hoping ping pong balls bounce our way. (and that the crop of talent is worth the buzz)

You can also use a high pick to trade for a good player like Ray Allen.

Yes you can, but unless you have other good players that alone won't get you beyond the "dreaded" middle that Pos is pushing hard for us to avoid with a team built around Rondo and whomever else DA brings in.

To compete in the NBA you need either a deep cast of all-star quality players or 1 or 2 MVP/all-nba caliber guys with role players to fill the rest of the roster out.

  Tanking doesn't really keep you from ending up in the middle either. You suck for a few years and get high draft picks that are good players but not superstars. You become a team that finishes a few spots better than the bottom. What then? Give away those players and go back to the bottom, hoping to hit on that rare franchise player, and repeat the process until you succeed?

 

basically.

welcome to the NBA, where it sucks to not be a contender, especially if your city isn't a free agent destination minus any young superstars already playing there.

  Funny, but a lot of the people who say that it sucks to not be a contender are in an inordinate rush to leave that status for the smallish chance that rebuilding a year earlier will somehow hasten our return to the top.

but that just comes back to our fundamental disagreement, tim.  a large portion of this forum believes the celtics are still a contender for the title, and a large portion believes they are not.

i believe they are not, but i don't really think there's much point in blowing it up this year.  this year is what it is (barring some go-all-in trade).  oh well.  after this year, though, it should be full-on rebuilding time.  there's no way to contend after this year that i can see.

[Sketch5]

Can anyone actually give me an example of a team that was awful and tanked for a few years and that helped them win a championship? Seriously, has that ever actually happened? Rebuilding =/= tanking.

Oklahoma City Thunder.  They are currently poised to be one of the best teams in the league for roughly the next decade.  They made smart moves and they drafted well.  They selected Durant #2, Westbrook #4, and Harden #3.

Miami never wins a title unless they draft Wade #5.  San Antonio never wins unless they draft Robinson #1 and then Duncan #1.  The Celtics never win in '08 without the #5 pick in the '07 draft.

Heck, look at the guys who have dominated the league for the past thirty years.  

Kareem. Bird, McHale, Parish. Magic. Jordan. Isiah. Hakeem. Shaq.

All top 10 picks.  The only team that's won multiple titles with main guys they didn't draft is the Lakers, because they can draw big name free agents like no other team.

I see your Point, but things are really different right now. Its rare to be able to draft and win right away. Especially with todays players that in a whole just aren't as skilled coming out like they use to.

Shaq didn't win a title till he left Orlando for LA.Jordan had to play for 8 years before he got his. So theres the chance that we will be waiting 7 to 8 years for an other title. Ok City is a freak in the modern team building. You have a All star that wants to stay, very rare now a days. And got some good picks because of teams like Boston. The Robinson and Duncan was a fluke. For one years had past inbetween, and two I don't think the Spurs were even suppose to draft that high, I think Boston was suppose to have the best chance at getting it.

Which leads me to a point. The last few times we've had a chance at a # 1 threw 3 pick what did we end up with?? We could have easily had Duncan, Dirk, and Durant/Odam. But we got Walker(I beleive), Peirce(turned out to be a good bet) and Green( that turned into Allen/KG). So Im not really high on trying to tank and watch some really bad basketball(remember 07?) to maybe get a top pick that we have been really havening bad luck in getting?

The Celts got the #5 because Peirce was out half the season. And even with that they had to trade for a vet player, in order to get an other one to win the championship. They didn't do it with the actual 5th pick.

So I don't thin there really isn't one way of doing it right. Im not a fan of tanking. Not fair to the fans. I like what Danny has been doing. Getting some legit talent from were ever he can from the draft, and trading for some experience. If he pulls it off again in three years, I could see other teams doing the same thing.

[PosImpos]

Can anyone actually give me an example of a team that was awful and tanked for a few years and that helped them win a championship? Seriously, has that ever actually happened? Rebuilding =/= tanking.

Oklahoma City Thunder.  They are currently poised to be one of the best teams in the league for roughly the next decade.  They made smart moves and they drafted well.  They selected Durant #2, Westbrook #4, and Harden #3.

Miami never wins a title unless they draft Wade #5.  San Antonio never wins unless they draft Robinson #1 and then Duncan #1.  The Celtics never win in '08 without the #5 pick in the '07 draft.

Heck, look at the guys who have dominated the league for the past thirty years.  

Kareem. Bird, McHale, Parish. Magic. Jordan. Isiah. Hakeem. Shaq.

All top 10 picks.  The only team that's won multiple titles with main guys they didn't draft is the Lakers, because they can draw big name free agents like no other team.

I see your Point, but things are really different right now. Its rare to be able to draft and win right away. Especially with todays players that in a whole just aren't as skilled coming out like they use to.

Shaq didn't win a title till he left Orlando for LA.Jordan had to play for 8 years before he got his. So theres the chance that we will be waiting 7 to 8 years for an other title. Ok City is a freak in the modern team building. You have a All star that wants to stay, very rare now a days. And got some good picks because of teams like Boston. The Robinson and Duncan was a fluke. For one years had past inbetween, and two I don't think the Spurs were even suppose to draft that high, I think Boston was suppose to have the best chance at getting it.

Which leads me to a point. The last few times we've had a chance at a # 1 threw 3 pick what did we end up with?? We could have easily had Duncan, Dirk, and Durant/Odam. But we got Walker(I beleive), Peirce(turned out to be a good bet) and Green( that turned into Allen/KG). So Im not really high on trying to tank and watch some really bad basketball(remember 07?) to maybe get a top pick that we have been really havening bad luck in getting?

The Celts got the #5 because Peirce was out half the season. And even with that they had to trade for a vet player, in order to get an other one to win the championship. They didn't do it with the actual 5th pick.

So I don't thin there really isn't one way of doing it right. Im not a fan of tanking. Not fair to the fans. I like what Danny has been doing. Getting some legit talent from were ever he can from the draft, and trading for some experience. If he pulls it off again in three years, I could see other teams doing the same thing.

so your argument is that the last 30+ years of teams winning titles was . . . a series of flukes?

i never said it didn't take luck, but i think it's hard to argue that you can expect to seriously contend over a significant period of time without drafting high and getting a superstar talent, especially if your city isn't a top free agent destination.

[Sketch5]

Can anyone actually give me an example of a team that was awful and tanked for a few years and that helped them win a championship? Seriously, has that ever actually happened? Rebuilding =/= tanking.

Oklahoma City Thunder.  They are currently poised to be one of the best teams in the league for roughly the next decade.  They made smart moves and they drafted well.  They selected Durant #2, Westbrook #4, and Harden #3.

Miami never wins a title unless they draft Wade #5.  San Antonio never wins unless they draft Robinson #1 and then Duncan #1.  The Celtics never win in '08 without the #5 pick in the '07 draft.

Heck, look at the guys who have dominated the league for the past thirty years.  

Kareem. Bird, McHale, Parish. Magic. Jordan. Isiah. Hakeem. Shaq.

All top 10 picks.  The only team that's won multiple titles with main guys they didn't draft is the Lakers, because they can draw big name free agents like no other team.

I see your Point, but things are really different right now. Its rare to be able to draft and win right away. Especially with todays players that in a whole just aren't as skilled coming out like they use to.

Shaq didn't win a title till he left Orlando for LA.Jordan had to play for 8 years before he got his. So theres the chance that we will be waiting 7 to 8 years for an other title. Ok City is a freak in the modern team building. You have a All star that wants to stay, very rare now a days. And got some good picks because of teams like Boston. The Robinson and Duncan was a fluke. For one years had past inbetween, and two I don't think the Spurs were even suppose to draft that high, I think Boston was suppose to have the best chance at getting it.

Which leads me to a point. The last few times we've had a chance at a # 1 threw 3 pick what did we end up with?? We could have easily had Duncan, Dirk, and Durant/Odam. But we got Walker(I beleive), Peirce(turned out to be a good bet) and Green( that turned into Allen/KG). So Im not really high on trying to tank and watch some really bad basketball(remember 07?) to maybe get a top pick that we have been really havening bad luck in getting?

The Celts got the #5 because Peirce was out half the season. And even with that they had to trade for a vet player, in order to get an other one to win the championship. They didn't do it with the actual 5th pick.

So I don't thin there really isn't one way of doing it right. Im not a fan of tanking. Not fair to the fans. I like what Danny has been doing. Getting some legit talent from were ever he can from the draft, and trading for some experience. If he pulls it off again in three years, I could see other teams doing the same thing.

so your argument is that the last 30+ years of teams winning titles was . . . a series of flukes?

i never said it didn't take luck, but i think it's hard to argue that you can expect to seriously contend over a significant period of time without drafting high and getting a superstar talent, especially if your city isn't a top free agent destination.

I didn't say it was a series of flukes, tanking and getting high picks wasn't that simple. Robison/Duncan was a fluke I stand by that, or at least really good luck.

But the examples aren't accurate in the argument. Ok City haven't won any thing yet.Kareem(traded). Magic draft to a good team. Bird drafted before he came out, then came to a good team. Shaq didn't win in Orlando, sign to La to win the title. The only teams thye would work would be Detroit. And Chicago. And with Chi they had Jordan, that was going to happen no matter what. And I do beleive the other picks never was really that high after him.

My real point was that in todays NBA its drafting a team isn't the best solution. Most players will leave in 5 years. Lebron Left, Bosh left. Wade stayed becuase Lebron and Bosh come to Miami. Wade doesn't win unless Shaq comes to town.

Now if you can build draft picks up so you get 4 good high picks in two or three years, you could do it, get players that like to play with each other and build as a team. But Id rather trade potential drafts for proven talent like in 07 #5 pick for Allen.