Why can't the NBA shake the "thug" image?

[csfansince60s]

The close association basketball seems to have with hip-hop/rap.

No doubt, sadly, racism does play a big part here.

However, I think that the hip hop/rap connection, and the gangsta life that much (though not all) of that music genre embraces has a huge role in the thug image.

What stands out to me is that year in Vegas when the NBA got all that negative press for the AllStar game that was held there.

That was a pretty big stage which didn't do much to dispel the association between gangsta life and hip/hop rap which is the music most closely associated to the NBA.

But like I mentioned, the only significant incident that weekend was Pac-Man Jones and his entourage beating up strippers and shooting up the club.  It doesn't get much more gangsta than that.  And still the bad press "stuck" to the NBA and not the NFL.  That's the sort of thing I don't understand.

Fair point, fairweather. I think the distinction (whether fair or reasonable or not)and consequent perception lies in the stage upon which the incident occurred. The stage was the NBA's, not the NFL, MLB or NHL, despite the fact that the perpetrator was an NFL player.

I also think that there were many more incidents that weekend that may not have risen to the level of Pac-Man's but were nonetheless embarassing to the host of the party, the NBA, even though probably none of them were caused by NBA players.

[Donoghus]

Regarding the NBA, though, it's simple:  those who engage in crime and who behave a certain way are labeled as thugs, and those who don't engage in crime and who behave in the opposite way aren't. 

It's not that simple, though, because many NFL players do engage in crime and behave in whatever the "certain way" is, and the league isn't identified as "a bunch of thugs". 

Whereas many NBA players might have similar appearances but generally aren't shooting up strip clubs, shooting themselves with illegal weapons, trafficking massive amounts of drugs or killing people in DUIs, yet the league does get hit with that label.  My initial question was - why does this label "stick" to the NBA and not the NFL?  That's not a simple issue at all in my opinion.

Like I mentioned before, I think it all goes back to race.  There is more racial diversity in football then there is in professional basketball from a player standpoint.  The media (which is predominantly white in both sports) covers the NBA in a manner than is different than the NFL.  Just look at ESPN for example.  Look and contrast the way they present and cover the NFL v. the NBA.  I'm not saying that there are blatant racists out there covering the sports but there are people out there who create images that some might construe have racial undertones.  But let me be clear that they're are a lot of media types out there who do none of that.  Don't want to be implying I'm brushing broad strokes here.

Also, Faf makes an excellent point about football players being covered up in uniforms and helmets so the exposure of its players is much different on television than guys running around in tank tops and shorts.

[Roy H.]

Regarding the NBA, though, it's simple:  those who engage in crime and who behave a certain way are labeled as thugs, and those who don't engage in crime and who behave in the opposite way aren't. 

It's not that simple, though, because many NFL players do engage in crime and behave in whatever the "certain way" is, and the league isn't identified as "a bunch of thugs". 

Whereas many NBA players might have similar appearances but generally aren't shooting up strip clubs, shooting themselves with illegal weapons, trafficking massive amounts of drugs or killing people in DUIs, yet the league does get hit with that label.  My initial question was - why does this label "stick" to the NBA and not the NFL?  That's not a simple issue at all in my opinion.

Your assumptions, though, are based on the rantings of 4 or 5 people on Facebook, who apparently prefer football to basketball.

Is the perception of the majority of people that the NBA is "a bunch of thugs", and do a similar majority think that the NFL doesn't have that makeup?

A lot of the folks I know think that both the NBA and NFL have plenty of thug players, but I don't know anybody who would say most or all players are.

[guava_wrench]

The sad reality of it all is that us as Americans are still a very racist and judgmental society as a whole.  Which completely contradicts everything this country was built on.

I too was shocked at how many casual fans would flippantly say, "I don't feel sorry for those thugs anyway." when the lock out would come up.  Some of those people that would say that were my friends.

As several have mentioned in previous posts, the face of the NBA is the face of it's players, and a majority of those players are black.  White america still has trouble with that.

Even on our own Celtics boards, we praise and remember with glory all the trash talking and fighting the likes of Bird, McHale, Ainge, Cowens, etc. did, but we have 10 page posts when a KG or a Pierce does something similar and we get on our high horses and act as if we would not have done the same thing.

This last year, because of the Bruins run, I watched the hockey playoffs closer than I ever had before and was shocked at how both fans and commentators celebrated the dirty play and outright thuggery that goes on during those matches.  Why is this ok and celebrated in hockey, and small fights in the NBA always make people say "there go those thugs again."  Sadly, it comes down to color.  Honestly, the NBA has really only had one huge brawl in recent history.  NHL, NFL, even baseball have brawls all the time.

NFL and baseball are surrounded by more scandal and cheating than the NBA, yet those two sports are on a pedestal in america.  Again, football players are conveniently hidden behind helmets and basesball has alway been thought of as American as apple pie, eventhough a majority of the players are not even from America at this point.

The most ironic part is that NBA players represent rags to riches overcoming the odds american stories more than any other sport in this country, yet a lot of folks want to tear these guys down at the slightest sign of weakness; be it a lock out, a decision to play elsewhere, a squirmish on the court, or a misworded comment.

I'm not saying NBA players are perfect, but I personally think they represent the NBA better than the players in the other major sports do for their leagues.

I agree on the hockey point... and pretty much all of the post.

The only difference between the big NBA brawl and the many baseball brawls is that the NBA brawls can land on fans' laps. Artest also beat up a fan. But he seems to be taking his meds now.

The tatoo-thug link that many make doesn't make sense to me. Do we think that musicians with tatoos are thugs? I associate the word thug with starting trouble and menacing people. Tatoos are completely passive. Trash talking is part of every sport where opponents are close to one another, so I don't think that should count as 'starting trouble'. If it does, than Larry Bird was super thug. I think that skin color is the major factor.

[Fafnir]

The tatoo-thug link that many make doesn't make sense to me.

Tatoos are more accepted now than ever, but they're still viewed negatively by an awful lot of America. Especially big tats like most NBA players have all over their arms/torso/faces/necks.

[fairweatherfan]

Regarding the NBA, though, it's simple:  those who engage in crime and who behave a certain way are labeled as thugs, and those who don't engage in crime and who behave in the opposite way aren't. 

It's not that simple, though, because many NFL players do engage in crime and behave in whatever the "certain way" is, and the league isn't identified as "a bunch of thugs". 

Whereas many NBA players might have similar appearances but generally aren't shooting up strip clubs, shooting themselves with illegal weapons, trafficking massive amounts of drugs or killing people in DUIs, yet the league does get hit with that label.  My initial question was - why does this label "stick" to the NBA and not the NFL?  That's not a simple issue at all in my opinion.

Your assumptions, though, are based on the rantings of 4 or 5 people on Facebook, who apparently prefer football to basketball.

Is the perception of the majority of people that the NBA is "a bunch of thugs", and do a similar majority think that the NFL doesn't have that makeup?

A lot of the folks I know think that both the NBA and NFL have plenty of thug players, but I don't know anybody who would say most or all players are.

That's far from the only context I've heard that in, it was just the one that prompted the thread.  A lot of people here seem to have had similar experiences.

Not that this is a decisive piece of evidence, but it's pretty striking:

Googling "NBA thug": 28.9 million results
Googling "NFL thug":  2.5 million results

Over 10-1 for a sport that's probably not half as popular (and has about 1/4 the players) as the NFL.  The link is clearly stronger, in spite of the actual behaviors of the players.

[Who]

Tattoo(s) and more importantly the visibility of them.

[guava_wrench]

Regarding the NBA, though, it's simple:  those who engage in crime and who behave a certain way are labeled as thugs, and those who don't engage in crime and who behave in the opposite way aren't. 

It's not that simple, though, because many NFL players do engage in crime and behave in whatever the "certain way" is, and the league isn't identified as "a bunch of thugs". 

Whereas many NBA players might have similar appearances but generally aren't shooting up strip clubs, shooting themselves with illegal weapons, trafficking massive amounts of drugs or killing people in DUIs, yet the league does get hit with that label.  My initial question was - why does this label "stick" to the NBA and not the NFL?  That's not a simple issue at all in my opinion.

Your assumptions, though, are based on the rantings of 4 or 5 people on Facebook, who apparently prefer football to basketball.

Is the perception of the majority of people that the NBA is "a bunch of thugs", and do a similar majority think that the NFL doesn't have that makeup?

A lot of the folks I know think that both the NBA and NFL have plenty of thug players, but I don't know anybody who would say most or all players are.

I agree that people are aren't anti-basketball are unlikely to talk in terms of thugs, but I think almost all of us have anecdotal experiences of non-NBA fans dismissing the NBA but using the thug term as a generalization. At the same time, almost none of us have heard the same dismissiveness used towards football.

The 'behaving a certain way' comment needs to be unpacked to be meaningful. The 'behaving a certain way' must not refer to taking cheap shots against other players or we wouldn't hear so many NHL fans calling NBA players thugs. Perhaps the behavior you refer to is having a certain haircut that is not covered by a helmet or baseball cap?

Some would say that the 'behaving a certain way' == 'behaving black', even if we are talking about little more than getting cornrows.

[bdm860]

Regarding the NBA, though, it's simple:  those who engage in crime and who behave a certain way are labeled as thugs, and those who don't engage in crime and who behave in the opposite way aren't. 

It's not that simple, though, because many NFL players do engage in crime and behave in whatever the "certain way" is, and the league isn't identified as "a bunch of thugs". 

Whereas many NBA players might have similar appearances but generally aren't shooting up strip clubs, shooting themselves with illegal weapons, trafficking massive amounts of drugs or killing people in DUIs, yet the league does get hit with that label.  My initial question was - why does this label "stick" to the NBA and not the NFL?  That's not a simple issue at all in my opinion.

Your assumptions, though, are based on the rantings of 4 or 5 people on Facebook, who apparently prefer football to basketball.

Is the perception of the majority of people that the NBA is "a bunch of thugs", and do a similar majority think that the NFL doesn't have that makeup?

A lot of the folks I know think that both the NBA and NFL have plenty of thug players, but I don't know anybody who would say most or all players are.

That's far from the only context I've heard that in, it was just the one that prompted the thread.  A lot of people here seem to have had similar experiences.

Not that this is a decisive piece of evidence, but it's pretty striking:

Googling "NBA thug": 28.9 million results
Googling "NFL thug":  2.5 million results

Over 10-1 for a sport that's probably not half as popular (and has less than 1/4 the players) of the NFL.

I'll back Faf up on this.

I don't know Faf personally, not friends with him on Facebook, probably don't have any friends in common, but I would say in my experience I have heard the NBA referred too as "a bunch of thugs" plenty of times, but I don't hear similar things said about the NFL, and this is largely by people who I would consider casual sports fan (neither die-hards of the NBA or NFL) or not really into sports at all.

[guava_wrench]

The tatoo-thug link that many make doesn't make sense to me.

Tatoos are more accepted now than ever, but they're still viewed negatively by an awful lot of America. Especially big tats like most NBA players have all over their arms/torso/faces/necks.

Perhaps, but I hear the thug comments among people who like rock musicians covered with tatoos. Also, so many of the people making these comments don't actually see the tatoos on the players because they don't watch the sport.

[Roy H.]

Some would say that the 'behaving a certain way' == 'behaving black', even if we are talking about little more than getting cornrows.

I find it amazingly offensive that people equate "behaving black" with the behavior I described:  engaging in crime, flashing guns, associating with hip hop, etc.  There are millions and millions of blacks who apparently don't "behave black".  How are those blacks (like Battier and Allen and Hill) behaving?  White?  Can't law-abiding blacks get to have a cultural identity of their own?

I know that folks in this thread are criticizing the racial assumptions some fans make about the league as a whole, but I also see dozens of people making racial assumptions of their own.

[Celtics4ever]

Personally, I don't follow these guys off court.  While I want
"our" guys to be safe.  I do not think any of them are hardcore gangsters with the except of Crittenton.  Most of these guys are playing at being tough.  Pat Tillman was a tough athlete.  I think most of these guys are acting or pretending.

I was in the service and anyone who thinks a tatoo makes you a thug or tough is a fool.  Personally, I don't have one but it's an ornament and little else.  They would only intimidate the most passive of people.  There is a fear of difference and maybe some of it is racism.  

I believe most of these guys are pampered athletes and not thugs.  I think most of them are soft men who have never seen combat or survived it.  Just watch them flail about when they punch like girls.   Most people fall for the act they put on.   I for one do not.  Most of those NBA brawls are laughable as they lack any skill in fighting.

I watch the basketball.  If I want to watch a tough guy I watch MMA.  There are a few guys I dislike and consider punks but I consider few of them true thugs.  A thug will rough you up, rob you and kill you.

[Finkelskyhook]

How much of this stigma developed while AI was a superstar?

I would contend all of it, Guava.  The best thing Stern could've done is promote Iverson while forbidding him from getting within the same area code of a microphone.  Iverson bled selfishness, narcissism and incoherence.

How much of it is due to the fact that there are only 5 guys on the court at a time and the impact of individual players is so high?

That's probably as legitimate an argument as any.  

NFL and baseball are surrounded by more scandal and cheating than the NBA, yet those two sports are on a pedestal in america.

I would contend that is because the overt cheating in the NFL and MLB is outside the lines rather than inside.  There is absolutely no chance that a Tim Donaghy could have existed...Let alone flew under the radar in MLB or the NFL.  Yet he fit right into the NBA.   MLB and NFL games virtually always appear to be legitimate contests.  There are bad calls in baseball and football.  But the same rules apply to everybody.  The NBA has become one small step above professional wrestling..Where the same rule is applied multiple ways depending on the player and the time of game.  The favortism toward certain players is so glaring that it makes a mockery of the game.

That has nothing to do with the subject at hand...But I believe it's a big reason for the differences in image between the NBA and MLB/NFL.

Again, you reap what you sew.  IMHO, I believe Stern has sold out image and to a degree, legitimacy for a more lucrative short-term product. 

Coach Hobbs, your last post was terrific. 

[Finkelskyhook]

Just watch them flail about when they punch like girls.

laughing uncontrollably.... Thinking of the snitchster flailing like a drunk and getting that 15 game suspension.

[JBcat]

I think some people think most NBA players come from poverty and broken homes, maybe lived a gangster life as a teenager, but that couldn't be further from the truth.  Here are some numbers on the subject. 

   http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/6777581/importance-athlete-background-making-nba