Why can't the NBA shake the "thug" image?

[Donoghus]

Predominantly white media covering a predominantly black sport.

It's all about race.

[fairweatherfan]

The close association basketball seems to have with hip-hop/rap.

No doubt, sadly, racism does play a big part here.

However, I think that the hip hop/rap connection, and the gangsta life that much (though not all) of that music genre embraces has a huge role in the thug image.

What stands out to me is that year in Vegas when the NBA got all that negative press for the AllStar game that was held there.

That was a pretty big stage which didn't do much to dispel the association between gangsta life and hip/hop rap which is the music most closely associated to the NBA.

But like I mentioned, the only significant incident that weekend was Pac-Man Jones and his entourage beating up strippers and shooting up the club.  It doesn't get much more gangsta than that.  And still the bad press "stuck" to the NBA and not the NFL.  That's the sort of thing I don't understand.

[action781]

The NBA is predominantly black, which could be another unfortunate factor.

Yeah, "thug" is frequently used as a coded racist term - but the NFL is mostly black too, and I think everyone on that list I wrote except Roethlisberger is black.  Race might be part of it but there's got to be more there.

I think it really may be the identifiability of NBA uniforms (vs the anonymity of NFL gear) and the more individual nature of the sport that makes it salient to people.  But the blind spot is really bizarre.

There is more but race is a major factor. The faces of the NFL are Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers. The most important position is still dominated by white players. These players also share the majority of the limelight helping shed any potential negative perceptions about the league as a whole.

This part of the race issue is really the big thing.  It's the race of the major faces of each sport.  While Ray Lewis, Polamalu, etc. are "big" faces in the NFL, they aren't the major ones like Brady, Rodgers, Brees, and Manning.  The major faces of the NBA are all black.

Also, it's certainly some of the perception of how each sport is enjoyed.  Football has painted itself a picture of being enjoyed best by a bunch of white people tailgating outside of pickup trucks drinking domestic light beers before games.  Basketball is enjoyed best kicking it out at the park - the most famous of which a lot of white people think they'd get shot at if they showed up there looking to play.  (I'm painting these pictures with a very broad brush, but I think there's some truth to the general ideas)

Hopefully perceptions will change over time...

[PosImpos]

It seems to me that racism plays the largest part in it.  I imagine that the popularity of large, elaborate tattoos among NBA players contributes, as well.

[quidinqui33]

The sad reality of it all is that us as Americans are still a very racist and judgmental society as a whole.  Which completely contradicts everything this country was built on.

I too was shocked at how many casual fans would flippantly say, "I don't feel sorry for those thugs anyway." when the lock out would come up.  Some of those people that would say that were my friends.

As several have mentioned in previous posts, the face of the NBA is the face of it's players, and a majority of those players are black.  White america still has trouble with that.

Even on our own Celtics boards, we praise and remember with glory all the trash talking and fighting the likes of Bird, McHale, Ainge, Cowens, etc. did, but we have 10 page posts when a KG or a Pierce does something similar and we get on our high horses and act as if we would not have done the same thing.

This last year, because of the Bruins run, I watched the hockey playoffs closer than I ever had before and was shocked at how both fans and commentators celebrated the dirty play and outright thuggery that goes on during those matches.  Why is this ok and celebrated in hockey, and small fights in the NBA always make people say "there go those thugs again."  Sadly, it comes down to color.  Honestly, the NBA has really only had one huge brawl in recent history.  NHL, NFL, even baseball have brawls all the time.

NFL and baseball are surrounded by more scandal and cheating than the NBA, yet those two sports are on a pedestal in america.  Again, football players are conveniently hidden behind helmets and basesball has alway been thought of as American as apple pie, eventhough a majority of the players are not even from America at this point.

The most ironic part is that NBA players represent rags to riches overcoming the odds american stories more than any other sport in this country, yet a lot of folks want to tear these guys down at the slightest sign of weakness; be it a lock out, a decision to play elsewhere, a squirmish on the court, or a misworded comment.

I'm not saying NBA players are perfect, but I personally think they represent the NBA better than the players in the other major sports do for their leagues.

[action781]

I guess you really can't have this conversation without Allen Iverson being mentioned also.  He was a huge part (and almost a pioneer) of the thug image the NBA got.  If it weren't for the saving grace of a couple recently classy big name guys in Pacquiao and De La Hoya, I'd say that if boxing started to have a few incidents similar to the NBA's, then they could be heading towards the same image thanks in no small part to Money Mayweather.

[bdm860]

A lot of people have already made good points.

I think a lot of it comes down to the uniform on a couple of levels.

With the NBA uniform, things like cornrows, afros, tattoos, scraggly facial hair and such are perfectly and clearly visible, and these things are definitely associated by a lot of people with “thugs.”   The NFL uniform covers up the hair and also the vast majority of tattoos.  And during the game, except for close-ups on the sidelines, you’re not going to get a good or lasting glimpse of the tattoos or facial hair.

It’s this:

Compared to this:


But now if that football player, was playing basketball, you’d see something more like this every second of the game:

Same Randy Moss, but I bet if he were playing basketball instead, he'd be viewed as more of thug, or by more people as a thug.  If DeShawn Stevenson were playing football, a lot of people would never see those tats or beard and his "thug" image.


Also, the way players dressed on the sidelines, pre-dress code didn’t help either (which I’m sure is still engrained in a lot of people’s heads).  While not all the players dressed like this, you’d see guys on the sideline that weren’t playing dressed like this, or coming to games, or doing post game interviews dressed like this:

But you don’t really see guys in the NFL in street clothes on the sideline or showing up to the arenas or doing post game interviews like this (at least I don’t think so, I don’t really watch football so I don't really know).  Even though the NBA now has the dresscode, the pre-dress code image is still stuck in a lot of people’s minds.


And then it’s the dress by non-professionals too.  You can drive by any park (city or suburbs) and see something like this:

And it’s even worse if they’re running shirts and skins.  You don’t see anywhere near as many unorganized football games going on.  So this aides the perception as well.  Also, you can get so close to these games (organized or pick up) just walking down the street or in the park and hear the players swearing.  You don't get anywhere near as close to pick up football games (or professional) to really hear what's going on or see the perceived "thug like" images of jewelry, tattoos, style of clothing, and language.

So then take these problems I mentioned and figure 30 NBA teams * 82 games * 7 game playoff series * 4 rounds + 30 or so major D1 programs * 35 or so game college seasons + a 1000 to 1 pickup basketball to football game ratio = a whole lot more basketball being seen than football, so this just exaggerates the perceived problem exponentially. 

I think a large part of it is a collection of these things, plus also what other people mentioned too.

[quidinqui33]

I agree with the previous poster that the visibility of NBA players has a lot to do with, but it is not because people see tattoos and hairstyles.  If it was just about the kind of hair you had and tattoos...wouldn't these guys be thugs too?  People call NBA players thugs for one reason and one reason only...because they see skin color.  It's sad.


Chris Anderson

Cherokee Parks

Travis Barker, Blink

Tommy Lee

Brian Deegan - X-Games Athlete

[Roy H.]

I don't think all of the perception is unfounded.  A lot of these guys are participating in the "thug life", and unfortunately, those who do overshadow those who do not.

Guys like Carmelo Anthony (stop snitchin'), Stephen Jackson, Zach Randolph, Gilbert Arenas, Kobe Bryant, and Allen Iverson are / were all stars in this league.  Unfortunately, the actions of guys like that overshadows guys like Grant Hill, Shane Battier, and Ray Allen.

As for the NFL, I'm not sure that they totally escape the reputation, either.  Maybe people stereotype NFL players less, but I think that a lot of guys (Vick, Plax, Roethlisberger, etc.) are seen by many as punks and thugs.

[quidinqui33]

I don't think all of the perception is unfounded.  A lot of these guys are participating in the "thug life", and unfortunately, those who do overshadow those who do not.

Guys like Carmelo Anthony (stop snitchin'), Stephen Jackson, Zach Randolph, Gilbert Arenas, Kobe Bryant, and Allen Iverson are / were all stars in this league.  Unfortunately, the actions of guys like that overshadows guys like Grant Hill, Shane Battier, and Ray Allen.

As for the NFL, I'm not sure that they totally escape the reputation, either.  Maybe people stereotype NFL players less, but I think that a lot of guys (Vick, Plax, Roethlisberger, etc.) are seen by many as punks and thugs.

Though I agree that the actions of some in the league are definitely not morally up to par, the fact that we refer to it as "thug life" behavior come down to skin color.  People call it "thug life" because NBA players are predominantly black eventhough this type of stuff occurs all over the world and in every type of business.  I work at an engineering firm, and I know multiple people that have gotten arrested for weed, DWIs, have had domestic issues at home.  None of them are black and doubt anyone would ever say they are living the "thug life" or that my company is full of thugz.  We have old white men raping kids in college sports. Should we brand the NCAA as a sport that is full of people living the "Pervert Life"?  The fact that we even brand this behavior as the "thug life" has to do with color. It's wrong to make that generalization because people from all walks of life and skin color make these types of bad decisions.

[Finkelskyhook]

Ray Lewis, AP, Troy Polomolu, Vick (before people realized he was a monster on the inside), Tiki Barber when he wasn't a scumbag, LT (before the statutory rape stuff), Jerry Rice, Bo Jackson, the list goes on..and on..

Even if these were Goodall's chosen ones to portray an image of his league...The above all have something in common.  With the possible exception of Vick, they're all articulate guys who are winners.  They're also great in front of a microphone and portray a team-first humility.  They're also players who again, with the exception of Vick and Jackson, had reached the pinnacle of their sport.  That's not mentioning the afformentioned Brady, Rogers, or Brees.

Now let's contrast that by looking at Stern's chosen ones.  Bird, Johnson, and  Jordan were the total packages.  They were winners who could talk....And then he chose the overrated, coach killing, barely literate, incoherent, and narcissistic Iverson as the face of the NBA....Followed by the more narcissistic messiah...Both of whom have/had yet to prior to being annointed...And probably will never win anything.  We know that Jordan, Iverson and the messiah were Stern's chosen ones because they were officiated completely differently from anybody from their eras in the NBA.  That's not even mentioning how they look or what race they are.

Factor that along with the other points made in this thread and it's a hard image to overcome.  

You reap what you sew.

[Roy H.]

I don't think all of the perception is unfounded.  A lot of these guys are participating in the "thug life", and unfortunately, those who do overshadow those who do not.

Guys like Carmelo Anthony (stop snitchin'), Stephen Jackson, Zach Randolph, Gilbert Arenas, Kobe Bryant, and Allen Iverson are / were all stars in this league.  Unfortunately, the actions of guys like that overshadows guys like Grant Hill, Shane Battier, and Ray Allen.

As for the NFL, I'm not sure that they totally escape the reputation, either.  Maybe people stereotype NFL players less, but I think that a lot of guys (Vick, Plax, Roethlisberger, etc.) are seen by many as punks and thugs.

Though I agree that the actions of some in the league are definitely not morally up to par, the fact that we refer to it as "thug life" behavior come down to skin color.  People call it "thug life" because NBA players are predominantly black eventhough this type of stuff occurs all over the world and in every type of business.  I work at an engineering firm, and I know multiple people that have gotten arrested for weed, DWIs, have had domestic issues at home.  None of them are black and doubt anyone would ever say they are living the "thug life" or that my company is full of thugz.  We have old white men raping kids in college sports. Should we brand the NCAA as a sport that is full of people living the "Pervert Life"?  The fact that we even brand this behavior as the "thug life" has to do with color. It's wrong to make that generalization because people from all walks of life and skin color make these types of bad decisions.

Eh...  "Thug life" is not all skin color, it's a lifestyle (perpetuated originally by hip hop artists like Tu Pac).  Lots of whites and hispanics who live a similar lifestyle -- crime, a certain fashion style, guns, hip hop -- get called thugs, as well.  (That's without even getting into the fact that lots of hockey players are routinely referred to as thugs, despite being 95%+ white.)

Regarding the NBA, though, it's simple:  those who engage in crime and who behave a certain way are labeled as thugs, and those who don't engage in crime and who behave in the opposite way aren't.  That's why nobody in their right mind has ever called Ray Allen or Shane Battier a thug, despite their skin color.  I don't think racial bias is to blame, I think it's a product of judging people on their actions.

Of course, I'm not around people who are saying that all NBA players are thugs. 

[Fafnir]

Tatoos also have a big impact on all of this. There is a reason why Kevin Durant makes sure to keep his where his jersey hides them.

In the NFL you don't see them due to the uniform and helmets.

[fairweatherfan]

Regarding the NBA, though, it's simple:  those who engage in crime and who behave a certain way are labeled as thugs, and those who don't engage in crime and who behave in the opposite way aren't. 

It's not that simple, though, because many NFL players do engage in crime and behave in whatever the "certain way" is, and the league isn't identified as "a bunch of thugs". 

Whereas many NBA players might have similar appearances but generally aren't shooting up strip clubs, shooting themselves with illegal weapons, trafficking massive amounts of drugs or killing people in DUIs, yet the league does get hit with that label.  My initial question was - why does this label "stick" to the NBA and not the NFL?  That's not a simple issue at all in my opinion.

[guava_wrench]

I think the difference is in the commissioners and the images of their product that they try to put forth.   

The difference is that Goodell deals with his miscreants with an iron fist whether they are superstars or on the taxi squad.

Stern seems to deal with his players based strictly on their star status at a given time.   

Goodell started cracking down with suspensions after the incidents starting piling up (especially Pac-Man).  So it's not like he's always been this way, this was a response to the egregious stuff his players were doing off the field.

As for Stern, there aren't many examples of him dealing with off-court stuff because there hasn't been much of note.  But Delonte got 10 games for possessing a weapon, Tyreke Evans 2 games for speeding (Adrian Peterson got away with the same thing), suspensions for DUIs are standard, etc.

On-court, Carmelo got a 15-game suspension for one punch while one of the biggest stars in the league, All-Star Artest got a season suspension, and multiple All-Star JO got 25 games (which he didn't "beat", he got it reduced to 15, still a major suspension).  He suspended most of the best players on the Heat and Knicks after their playoff fight.  Magic Johnson got 3 games for bumping a ref,  Kobe got suspended multiple times a few years back for throwing elbows, KG got one for hitting Bogut, budding superstar John Wall got one last year, Bynum 5 this year, etc, etc...

I haven't seen any evidence Stern's afraid to suspend anybody, or that he'd react any differently than Goodell to the serious off-court stuff NFL guys have gotten into.  But again, we don't know because those incidents aren't happening in the first place, which is a big part of my initial point.

Nice reply to the easy 'blame Stern' approach.

I think there are a lot of people out there who like one sport so they try to find ways to put down the other sport. Some people are like that. They need to find deep meaning to their liking a sport.

Another problem, as many have mentioned, is how much skin shows on the basketball court.

How much of this stigma developed while AI was a superstar? How much of it is due to the fact that there are only 5 guys on the court at a time and the impact of individual players is so high?