JaJuan or BBD?

[EJPLAYA]

Really?

People want to just give a four year senior college player chosen 27th in the 1st round, who hasn't played a single minute in the NBA the backup PF spot over a player that has proven himself as a valuable NBA role player?

Really?

How many four year college PFs chosen after the 15th pick in the 1st round have even made it in the NBA over the last ten years, never mind be so productive as to land the back up PF spot on a contending team?

Before you go researching the number is extremely extremely small.

I think you’ll find most people on that side of the argument aren’t really so infatuated with JaJuan, rather not in agreement with you as to BBD’s value. I’d sign almost anyone out there over BBD right now because I feel he is a selfish player more interested in his “role” on the team than winning a championship. He is an out of shape cry baby who can’t seem to realize what his strengths and weaknesses are. For some reason he thinks he is a shooter, and no matter who he is out there with thinks he should be launching up shots. He longer works hard at the thing that used to make many of us love his contribution to the team, hustle and taking charges, and therefore his skill set is very small at this weight/point.

Someone once again tell me the value of an under sized PF/C that can’t rebound, score under the basket, shoot from the outside, defend on the perimeter, score under the rim, or block shots… I think many of us don’t see it and that’s why we’d rather have a guy with upside than BBD.

I realize that Glen Davis has flaws, but I think he gets a little unfairly vilified around here for his proclivity for "launching up shots." 

Last season, outside of KG, we didn't have any other bigs who played significant minutes who had the ability to take outside shots.  For that reason, when Baby was on the floor with any big other than KG, he became the jump shooting big by default. 

As I think he should, Doc likes to have a big on the floor who can pop out and hit the J at all times.  Baby, way too often last year, ended up being the guy who fit that category. 

This was due to our roster make up.  Personally, I like Glen Davis much better when he can be paired with a big, like 'Sheed, for example, who likes to pop out and hit jumpers.  Baby is much more comfortable and effective as a roller, going to the hoop and getting layups, drawing fouls, and getting in position for offensive rebounds. 

That's why I say, let's see if we can resuscitate Troy Murphy.  If Troy can regain enough of his form to be a second line big man, I think he and Baby could form a better offensive tandem than anything we saw up front last year with the second unit.  Baby rolls and Murphy pops.

I do like Johnson, as well.  I think he's a guy who can knock down the open jumper, too.  Pairing Baby and Johnson together, if nothing else, would be amusing to watch.  It would be like watching a figure from a Botero painting running up and down the court with a Giacometti sculpture. 

 

People on here keep talking about BBD’s shooting ability! That’s a crock! As Roy pointed out on here earlier he shot 35% from 16-23 feet last season for us which is where he takes most of his shots. Jeff Green shot 51% from that same distance last season. Why on earth, unless you are just a selfish player, would you not look to rotate the ball over to Green for that shot instead of taking it yourself?! It’s because you are in a contract year and have a WAY overinflated opinion of your abilities. Facts are facts, and BBD isn’t a good shooter from the outside. Add that to the fact that he isn’t a good shooter from really anywhere else, can’t rebound, can’t block shots, can’t defend the perimeter, etc, he has very limited skills and isn’t a big loss.

He does two things well historically. Takes charges and Mans up huge post guys on the low block. Now that he is out of shape enough that he only can do the latter, he has almost no value to us.

[LooseCannon]

Instead of arguing that Glen Davis is a bad player (I think he is easily good enough to be in the NBA, but not good enough to be a guy you feel satisfied with if he is penciled in as the starter going into a season), I would instead argue that he could be a bad fit for what the team needs in terms of a big off the bench.  It is possible that the team may benefit more from a player who is not quite as good as Big Baby, but who is a better rebounder and shot-blocker.

[Roy H.]

Facts are facts, and BBD isn’t a good shooter from the outside. Add that to the fact that he isn’t a good shooter from really anywhere else, can’t rebound, can’t block shots, can’t defend the perimeter, etc, he has very limited skills and isn’t a big loss.

He does two things well historically. Takes charges and Mans up huge post guys on the low block. Now that he is out of shape enough that he only can do the latter, he has almost no value to us.

Glad to have you back posting, EJ.  That seems like a fairly accurate description of BBD from where I sit.  He gets points for energy and hustle, but loses some for being out to "get his".

[Celtics18]

Really?

People want to just give a four year senior college player chosen 27th in the 1st round, who hasn't played a single minute in the NBA the backup PF spot over a player that has proven himself as a valuable NBA role player?

Really?

How many four year college PFs chosen after the 15th pick in the 1st round have even made it in the NBA over the last ten years, never mind be so productive as to land the back up PF spot on a contending team?

Before you go researching the number is extremely extremely small.

I think you’ll find most people on that side of the argument aren’t really so infatuated with JaJuan, rather not in agreement with you as to BBD’s value. I’d sign almost anyone out there over BBD right now because I feel he is a selfish player more interested in his “role” on the team than winning a championship. He is an out of shape cry baby who can’t seem to realize what his strengths and weaknesses are. For some reason he thinks he is a shooter, and no matter who he is out there with thinks he should be launching up shots. He longer works hard at the thing that used to make many of us love his contribution to the team, hustle and taking charges, and therefore his skill set is very small at this weight/point.

Someone once again tell me the value of an under sized PF/C that can’t rebound, score under the basket, shoot from the outside, defend on the perimeter, score under the rim, or block shots… I think many of us don’t see it and that’s why we’d rather have a guy with upside than BBD.

I realize that Glen Davis has flaws, but I think he gets a little unfairly vilified around here for his proclivity for "launching up shots." 

Last season, outside of KG, we didn't have any other bigs who played significant minutes who had the ability to take outside shots.  For that reason, when Baby was on the floor with any big other than KG, he became the jump shooting big by default. 

As I think he should, Doc likes to have a big on the floor who can pop out and hit the J at all times.  Baby, way too often last year, ended up being the guy who fit that category. 

This was due to our roster make up.  Personally, I like Glen Davis much better when he can be paired with a big, like 'Sheed, for example, who likes to pop out and hit jumpers.  Baby is much more comfortable and effective as a roller, going to the hoop and getting layups, drawing fouls, and getting in position for offensive rebounds. 

That's why I say, let's see if we can resuscitate Troy Murphy.  If Troy can regain enough of his form to be a second line big man, I think he and Baby could form a better offensive tandem than anything we saw up front last year with the second unit.  Baby rolls and Murphy pops.

I do like Johnson, as well.  I think he's a guy who can knock down the open jumper, too.  Pairing Baby and Johnson together, if nothing else, would be amusing to watch.  It would be like watching a figure from a Botero painting running up and down the court with a Giacometti sculpture. 

 

People on here keep talking about BBD’s shooting ability! That’s a crock! As Roy pointed out on here earlier he shot 35% from 16-23 feet last season for us which is where he takes most of his shots. Jeff Green shot 51% from that same distance last season. Why on earth, unless you are just a selfish player, would you not look to rotate the ball over to Green for that shot instead of taking it yourself?! It’s because you are in a contract year and have a WAY overinflated opinion of your abilities. Facts are facts, and BBD isn’t a good shooter from the outside. Add that to the fact that he isn’t a good shooter from really anywhere else, can’t rebound, can’t block shots, can’t defend the perimeter, etc, he has very limited skills and isn’t a big loss.

He does two things well historically. Takes charges and Mans up huge post guys on the low block. Now that he is out of shape enough that he only can do the latter, he has almost no value to us.

Fine.  I'm not even arguing that he's a good outside shooter, but he was the best perimeter shooting big on the roster not named Kevin Garnett last season. 

Doc likes to have a big on the floor who can pop out and hit shots from the perimeter.  He thought that Baby might be able to fill that role.  He wasn't good at it, and it hurt his overall game. 

This doesn't make him useless.  He's a good inside scorer, a good offensive rebounder, and he's good at drawing fouls inside.  He has shown the ability to use his bulk to defend bigger guys on the interior.  While not a shot blocker, he is a decent help defender who moves his feet well to get in position to take charges and is also quite adept at stepping in passing lanes and getting steals.  He's an energy guy who's good to have.

I won't list his flaws.  That's been done plenty, but I do realize that he has some. 

If we can re-sign him for around 3 mil., I say he's a bargain.  If some other team wants to overpay for him, let him go. 

[thirstyboots18]

 Glen Davis, himself, was chosen 5th in the second round by Seattle.   

[xmuscularghandix]

I feel like Jajuan Johnson at 22/23 has the same size, strength, and level of talent KG had coming out of high school. Probably a smarter player than KG was as a rookie, but about the same piece of thin, yet to be molded clay... only 5 years younger.

JJ also isn't just any 4 year college player, he's a player who has lead his conference in scoring AND is considered an amazing defender AND athlete.

Jajuan Johnson WILL block shots at the next level and he'll beat his matchup down court consistently for highlight dunks... not to mention he can hit the 18 foot jumper with great ease.

Glen Davis is a chump you can't accept his role, can't defend anything, and takes 2 bad shots for every great one. Go play in Minnesota with the rest of the preteNBA superstars.

[EJPLAYA]

Really?

People want to just give a four year senior college player chosen 27th in the 1st round, who hasn't played a single minute in the NBA the backup PF spot over a player that has proven himself as a valuable NBA role player?

Really?

How many four year college PFs chosen after the 15th pick in the 1st round have even made it in the NBA over the last ten years, never mind be so productive as to land the back up PF spot on a contending team?

Before you go researching the number is extremely extremely small.

I think you’ll find most people on that side of the argument aren’t really so infatuated with JaJuan, rather not in agreement with you as to BBD’s value. I’d sign almost anyone out there over BBD right now because I feel he is a selfish player more interested in his “role” on the team than winning a championship. He is an out of shape cry baby who can’t seem to realize what his strengths and weaknesses are. For some reason he thinks he is a shooter, and no matter who he is out there with thinks he should be launching up shots. He longer works hard at the thing that used to make many of us love his contribution to the team, hustle and taking charges, and therefore his skill set is very small at this weight/point.

Someone once again tell me the value of an under sized PF/C that can’t rebound, score under the basket, shoot from the outside, defend on the perimeter, score under the rim, or block shots… I think many of us don’t see it and that’s why we’d rather have a guy with upside than BBD.

I realize that Glen Davis has flaws, but I think he gets a little unfairly vilified around here for his proclivity for "launching up shots." 

Last season, outside of KG, we didn't have any other bigs who played significant minutes who had the ability to take outside shots.  For that reason, when Baby was on the floor with any big other than KG, he became the jump shooting big by default. 

As I think he should, Doc likes to have a big on the floor who can pop out and hit the J at all times.  Baby, way too often last year, ended up being the guy who fit that category. 

This was due to our roster make up.  Personally, I like Glen Davis much better when he can be paired with a big, like 'Sheed, for example, who likes to pop out and hit jumpers.  Baby is much more comfortable and effective as a roller, going to the hoop and getting layups, drawing fouls, and getting in position for offensive rebounds. 

That's why I say, let's see if we can resuscitate Troy Murphy.  If Troy can regain enough of his form to be a second line big man, I think he and Baby could form a better offensive tandem than anything we saw up front last year with the second unit.  Baby rolls and Murphy pops.

I do like Johnson, as well.  I think he's a guy who can knock down the open jumper, too.  Pairing Baby and Johnson together, if nothing else, would be amusing to watch.  It would be like watching a figure from a Botero painting running up and down the court with a Giacometti sculpture. 

 

People on here keep talking about BBD’s shooting ability! That’s a crock! As Roy pointed out on here earlier he shot 35% from 16-23 feet last season for us which is where he takes most of his shots. Jeff Green shot 51% from that same distance last season. Why on earth, unless you are just a selfish player, would you not look to rotate the ball over to Green for that shot instead of taking it yourself?! It’s because you are in a contract year and have a WAY overinflated opinion of your abilities. Facts are facts, and BBD isn’t a good shooter from the outside. Add that to the fact that he isn’t a good shooter from really anywhere else, can’t rebound, can’t block shots, can’t defend the perimeter, etc, he has very limited skills and isn’t a big loss.

He does two things well historically. Takes charges and Mans up huge post guys on the low block. Now that he is out of shape enough that he only can do the latter, he has almost no value to us.

Fine.  I'm not even arguing that he's a good outside shooter, but he was the best perimeter shooting big on the roster not named Kevin Garnett last season. 

Doc likes to have a big on the floor who can pop out and hit shots from the perimeter.  He thought that Baby might be able to fill that role.  He wasn't good at it, and it hurt his overall game. 

This doesn't make him useless.  He's a good inside scorer, a good offensive rebounder, and he's good at drawing fouls inside.  He has shown the ability to use his bulk to defend bigger guys on the interior.  While not a shot blocker, he is a decent help defender who moves his feet well to get in position to take charges and is also quite adept at stepping in passing lanes and getting steals.  He's an energy guy who's good to have.

I won't list his flaws.  That's been done plenty, but I do realize that he has some. 

If we can re-sign him for around 3 mil., I say he's a bargain.  If some other team wants to overpay for him, let him go. 

But you were saying he was a good shooter from the outside. He wasn't the best outside shooter other than KG because stats, and anyone watching the game, clearly show that Jeff Green was a better outside shooter than BBD was. If you want to argue that Green is not a big, then fine, but is there something that says that only the big can shoot from the outside?! Clearly we would have had a better result with BBD swinging it to Green which was selfish on his part.

As far as the other strengths you mention, I’d argue that the being a good inside scorer is absolutely false as well. 63% at the rim and 39% from 3-9 feet is TERRIBLE for a big guy. So the only thing you mention are the two things I mentioned. One of them, drawing charges, he doesn’t even do anymore since he is out of shape.

It comes down to this. At his BEST he is a player who can hustle and draw charges and man up a big body down low. Nothing else really. When he is fat like he has been much of his time on this squad he can’t do much but be big down low. If THAT is your idea of a solid NBA big man then okay, but the guy’s hustle doesn’t translate to off the court. When I want to see that fire and commitment that we see occasionally out there, is in the weight room and at the dinner table. If he were in great shape he’d be worth a roster spot. We’ve seen enough of him at this point to know he isn’t committed. At 40 yrs old myself I can tell you that he will only get bigger and slower and then he’s a waste of a spot. I will take an overachiever any day...

[Celtics18]

I'm not sure what your age has to do with anything, EJ.

Because you are 40, that makes you recognize the fact that Glen Davis will never get in better shape?  Huh?

Sure Jeff Green's a better perimeter shooter.  So is Delonte West.  I thought it was pretty clear that I was comparing him to other bigs on the team.

I will admit, though, that I forgot about Krstic who is another big who played for us last season who was a better perimeter shooter than Baby.   

[EJPLAYA]

I'm not sure what your age has to do with anything, EJ.

Because you are 40, that makes you recognize the fact that Glen Davis will never get in better shape?  Huh?

Sure Jeff Green's a better perimeter shooter.  So is Delonte West.  I thought it was pretty clear that I was comparing him to other bigs on the team.

I will admit, though, that I forgot about Krstic who is another big who played for us last season who was a better perimeter shooter than Baby.   

It has to due with the fact that I can positively tell you that the next 10 years for BBD will result in heavier weight and more difficulty staying slim. When you are a big guy fighting weight all the time, that stretch is a killer and you are going to put more and more weight on. Look at Shaq. Look at Tractor Traylor. Look at Oliver Miller. Look at Kevin Duckworth… Skinny guys like a KG or Ray can keep it off because that’s just their metabolism. Big guys can’t. Especially when they have shown a track record of only keeping the weight down in contract years. BBD’s level of play is clearly attributed to his being in really good shape. When he was he was a solid rotation guy. The times he wasn’t, like the latter part of last year, he wasn’t.

Once again the rebuttal I’d have for you, is that if there are 3-4 better shooters on the floor than you (by your own examples and admission) then you are a selfish player to keep jacking up shots from outside when you only hit one in three. Those two things are why BBD is a bad bet and better for us to let him drift off into the sunset with someone else. Too big a risk for too little reward.

[Celtics4ever]

I actually thought BBD hogged the ball.   He would not pass it to Green trying to show he was the man.  There were many a time when others were open only to see Glen Chuck one up there.

[gar]

One on one it would be no contest.

JaJuan will surprise people with his speed, quickness and strength. He can shoot over BBD Dunk over BBD and blow by BBD. BBD may be able to back him down; but JaJuan will just swat away anything he puts up.

[BASS_THUMPER]

WHAT!!!

Glen Davis would knock him down like a bowling pin..

yall forgettin the match ups glen been in..





strong dude and fast

[Who]

One on one it would be no contest.

JaJuan will surprise people with his speed, quickness and strength. He can shoot over BBD Dunk over BBD and blow by BBD. BBD may be able to back him down; but JaJuan will just swat away anything he puts up.

I would think that the opposite would happen.

JaJuan was known as a guy with really poor lower body strength who frequently got out-muscled in the post at the collegiate level. I think BBD would push him around easily and create high percentage shots around the baskets.

On the other end, Glen Davis' quick feet (laterally) and physical post defense would make it difficult for Johnson to either beat him off the dribble or post him up. BBD would be able to effectively push Johnson off his favourite spots and into lower percentage shots out of the post (even though Johnson can clearly shoot over the top of BBD).

And if I am remembering correctly, despite JaJuan posting big scoring numbers in college and scoring a lot out of the post, he only did so on a barely above average scoring efficiency. Having someone like BBD who can push him off his favourite spots would make life difficult for him.

But anyway ... one-on-one skills don't matter much with either guy because neither will be asked to do so on this Celtics team in the immediate future.

I think JJJ's length, athleticism and shooting range will make him a much more effective complementary offensive threat than BBD has been.

[Celtics18]

I'm not sure what your age has to do with anything, EJ.

Because you are 40, that makes you recognize the fact that Glen Davis will never get in better shape?  Huh?

Sure Jeff Green's a better perimeter shooter.  So is Delonte West.  I thought it was pretty clear that I was comparing him to other bigs on the team.

I will admit, though, that I forgot about Krstic who is another big who played for us last season who was a better perimeter shooter than Baby.   

It has to due with the fact that I can positively tell you that the next 10 years for BBD will result in heavier weight and more difficulty staying slim. When you are a big guy fighting weight all the time, that stretch is a killer and you are going to put more and more weight on. Look at Shaq. Look at Tractor Traylor. Look at Oliver Miller. Look at Kevin Duckworth… Skinny guys like a KG or Ray can keep it off because that’s just their metabolism. Big guys can’t. Especially when they have shown a track record of only keeping the weight down in contract years. BBD’s level of play is clearly attributed to his being in really good shape. When he was he was a solid rotation guy. The times he wasn’t, like the latter part of last year, he wasn’t.

Once again the rebuttal I’d have for you, is that if there are 3-4 better shooters on the floor than you (by your own examples and admission) then you are a selfish player to keep jacking up shots from outside when you only hit one in three. Those two things are why BBD is a bad bet and better for us to let him drift off into the sunset with someone else. Too big a risk for too little reward.

Glen Davis is in his mid twenties.  Sure, he's always been a big guy who has struggled with his weight, but I see no objective evidence that he can't get himself into the best shape for himself over the course of the next couple of years.  It won't be easy for him, but it's certainly possible.

As to the jump shot thing, I guess I haven't made myself clear enough.  I believe that the system was often designed for Glen to be a jump shooter when he was on the floor last year.  He took jump shots because that's what his coach asked him to do, not because he's selfish. 

Personally, I would much rather see him put in positions where he was rolling to the basket more and even work some more in post up situations.  I don't think he's a great jump shooter either. 

[Celtics4ever]

Davis is a freak who can carrying a lot of weight and move fast.   But he isn't even in the same speed category as Johnson and jumpingwise it isn't even close.  Having a big body is only useful if you can bring it to bear on the foe.   If he is quicker then it is harder to do that.   It will be of some use in the half court but in the running game the edge will be with Johnson.   A wise quick player will make the mass guy run all over turning that extra weight into a weight vest that tires them out quicker. 

Gaining Strength is much easier to fix than losing blubber.  Gaining strength though is not mass.  Someone can be strong as heck and not gain mass.   Mass really does help down low for the pushing and leaning on people to make them tired.   Davis does depend on his mass because he has not much height.  I think were they to play one on one.  Davis would back down Johnson and promptly have his shot blocked each time assuming Davis does not run him into the back board each time.

I take an issue with these comments, Celtics18

He took jump shots because that's what his coach asked him to do, not because he's selfish. 

Get real, I seen him ignore people who were open and closer to the bucket.   Are you his brother?  I don't hear Doc saying we need him back.   That pretty much ends the it being part of the offense argument.  Does this look like it was by design.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgooBsfXm1M


This is qoute from Rivers that completely blows your design theory away.

On Glen Davis:

“I thought it was more in between his ears than his play. I thought the whole contract thing affected his play. I thought he had the wrong focus at times because of that. I think when you stray away from just being a team player and being the role that you’re given, I think you struggle. I think all players do. And I thought Baby did that.

“I thought scoring was way too important to him, instead of being who he is."

http://www.iamagm.com/news/2011/05/16/doc.rivers.calls.out.glen.davis.claims.impending.free.agency.affected.his.play

Lots of us watch the games and can't be BS'ed.