Good News. Labor deal is 95.632% complete

[Roy H.]

Sounds reasonable.  What is shocking though (OK, its not really shocking, but sad) is how little the players actually understand the deal.  I think a lot of the outrage right now is coming from players who don't understand what the actual offer is.  

I don't know if that's really fair, the players in charge likely understand a lot mire than we do here

I should hope so, since it's one of their job responsibilities.  Players in positions of union power should *always* know more than fans on a message board.

However, read some of the tweets coming from the media:

KC Johnson: Amazing-or maybe not-the disparity in knowledge of NBA offer within union. Some players know all. Others don't know who player rep is

Sam Amick: The inefficiency in communication and organization from the players at such a dire time is astounding to me.

Sam Amick: I'm consistently hearing about player reps who don't contact/inform teammates, agents are scrambling for info on where things stand. Unreal.

Adrian Wojnarowski: Beyond player reps, there'll be many more players coming for Monday meeting. Confusion's ruling day, cause so few know details of NBA offer.

Then, there's this, closer to home:

   Though no longer officially on the team roster, Davis’ source of information remains Paul Pierce [stats], the Celtics’ player representative.

    Though Pierce was the main speaker during a players-only conference call last week that featured an aggressive debate about decertification of the union, he hasn’t attempted to sell that idea to teammates.

    “Paul has e-mailed me. He called once,” said Davis, sounding disturbed that Pierce has not been in more frequent contact. “He doesn’t advise me on any of this. That’s what my agent does. He’s Paul Pierce. He doesn’t have to talk to me.

    “But what (Pierce) basically says is to be prepared for anything. This is something the league has to go through, and we have to wait for things to work out. But he hasn’t talked to me about (decertification). He just talks to me about being ready.”

I have a hard time believing that the players are informed right now, outside of the reps (who may or may not pass that knowledge along to their teammates.)

[Roy H.]

This is fairly insulting to the players. Assuming they are too stupid or misinformed to understand this offer could be interpreted in a few different ways, none of them being very flattering to you.

Or, it could be based upon media reports suggesting the exact same thing.  Before jumping down somebody's throat, why not read what's out there?

One interpretation of Chris' words:  he's read up on the lockout, and has followed what's coming from the media, the agents, and from the players' themselves.  He's seeing a lot of misunderstanding, and a lot of information that's distorted.  He came to the conclusion that some of the players may be confused.

To me, that's a perfectly flattering characterization, and it so happens to be one that seems to be in large part accurate.  But hey, let's go the outraged way, implying (without saying) that Chris is some sort of racist (ala the Bill Simmons controversy).  I see no need to create an issue out of an innocuous, seemingly accurate statement.

[nickagneta]

This is fairly insulting to the players. Assuming they are too stupid or misinformed to understand this offer could be interpreted in a few different ways, none of them being very flattering to you.

Or, it could be based upon media reports suggesting the exact same thing.  Before jumping down somebody's throat, why not read what's out there?

One interpretation of Chris' words:  he's read up on the lockout, and has followed what's coming from the media, the agents, and from the players' themselves.  He's seeing a lot of misunderstanding, and a lot of information that's distorted.  He came to the conclusion that some of the players may be confused.

To me, that's a perfectly flattering characterization, and it so happens to be one that seems to be in large part accurate.  But hey, let's go the outraged way, implying (without saying) that Chris is some sort of racist (ala the Bill Simmons controversy).  I see no need to create an issue out of an innocuous, seemingly accurate statement.

Or he could have meant it the exact way it sounded. I have read up on this fairly extensively, thank you very much.

What I see is a lack of communication being reported.

NOT A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING!!!!

Not having the proper information is completely different than not understanding. If Chris stated that he was surprised at the lack of information that a majority of the players had regarding the deal that's one thing.

But he didn't say that did he Roy.

Before jumping down my throat go back and read what he typed and what you are presenting as defense to support his case.

What I read that you gave as support for Chris' statement is

"disparity of knowledge"
"inefficiency of communication"
"He doesn't advise me"

That's all pointing towards a lack of communication. Not an ability to understand.

How about instead of jumping down my throat you go to you colleague and tell him that what he wrote could be interpreted in a very poor way and that maybe he should clarify himself. But no. Don't do that. Once again, chastise the guy pointing out that someone is writing something that a group of people could see as fairly insulting instead of taking to task the person that wrote the possibly insulting thing.

WOW!!!!

[Roy H.]

How about instead of jumping down my throat you go to you colleague and tell him that what he wrote could be interpreted in a very poor way and that maybe he should clarify himself. But no. Don't do that. Once again, chastise the guy pointing out that someone is writing something that a group of people could see as fairly insulting instead of taking to task the person that wrote the possibly insulting thing.

WOW!!!!

You're upset because I stood up for another poster that you implied was racist (or, at least, that some could interpret to be racist), when there was absolutely zero evidence to suggest that he is?  Chris has a track record on here of several thousand posts; I don't think we need others to twist and interpret his words to glean his true meaning.  Even in your response, you put words in his mouth.  Yes, I'm going to stand up for Chris, both as a colleague and as another poster who deserves respect.

Chris said the players lack understanding of the deal.  He didn't say they *couldn't* understand it, he said many of them currently didn't.  That's exactly what the stories I linked to suggested.  

[nickagneta]

You really are taking liberties with interpretations here, Roy.

Here's what was actually written:

"What is shocking though (OK, its not really shocking, but sad) is how little the players actually understand the deal.  I think a lot of the outrage right now is coming from players who don't understand what the actual offer is." 

How little they understand. Outrage from players who don't understand what the offer is.

That's a very far cry from being uninformed.

And all I implied is that such a remark as he made could paint him in a bad light. Such as someone who insults others or has an elitist nature or any number of things yes including being racist. I KNOW Chris isn't racist. I've read enough of his posts to know that.

But even IP kinda took what he wrote the same way I did.

What I was hoping for was some clarification from Chris not you attacking me because I pointed out the obvious, something that even another colleague of yours appears to have  interpreted the way I did, that Chris was saying the players couldn't understand it.

[Chris]

Sounds reasonable.  What is shocking though (OK, its not really shocking, but sad) is how little the players actually understand the deal.  I think a lot of the outrage right now is coming from players who don't understand what the actual offer is. 

I don't know if that's really fair, the players in charge likely understand a lot mire than we do here

I am not talking about the players in charge.  I am talking about many of the players who are not involved as closely in the talks.  And I am basing this on statements by various "insiders" who have basically said the same thing.  The level of misinformation among the players is incredibly high, considering they are the ones who are supposed to be voting on this.

[Roy H.]

What I was hoping for was some clarification from Chris not you attacking me because I pointed out the obvious...

I'll let Chris defend himself, but I'll say in conclusion that I find this post to be amazingly, over-the-top ironic.

I think it's highly inappropriate for somebody to imply another poster is racist, especially when that somebody goes out of their way to interpret that poster's words in the worst light possible.  To suggest that Chris' words could have no legitimate meaning (i.e., "none of them flattering") is insulting and inaccurate.

[Chris]

And let me just end this right now.  I was in no way implying an inability of the players to understand anything, I was simply referring to a consistent trend by many of the players to not follow these negotiations closely, when it is so important to them.

Let's not deteriorate this thread, based on something that was taken out of context.  If anyone has a problem with something I say, or would like a clarification, please PM me, and I would be happy to explain more, but I do not see any reason to argue your interpretation of my words in this thread.

[cman88]

I dont see the players winning this if they reject the deal....the fact that Hunter is bringing it back to the players shows me that he doesnt think they can get anything better thus far....players never usually win these types of things because the owners have alot more ammo to play with.

I still get the feeling that the players will ratify the deal...its easy to say in public "well miss the season, lets stand firm!" but not always in a private vote...once players realise they will miss a years worth of salary if they vote no

its easy for Pierce/Kobe etc. to say that when they have made Millions and have endorsement deals to fall back on. but the average NBA player doesnt have that and we havent really heard from them on this(although we know Glen Davis would accept it)...we've only heard the superstars who can afford to take off a year.

accept the main things and then negotiate away from the small stuff

[hwangjini_1]

geez louise guys....honestly, how can we expect owners and players to work together when the latest posts at cb show we even have trouble doing so.

i love this place, in part because of the civility. please take a nice deep breath, get a good beer, and come back posting good posts....as you usually do.

[lon3lytoaster]

geez louise guys....honestly, how can we expect owners and players to work together when the latest posts at cb show we even have trouble doing so.

i love this place, in part because of the civility. please take a nice deep breath, get a good beer, and come back posting good posts....as you usually do.

Thank god there isn't a CBA we have to sign to post here.

[BASS_THUMPER]

get a good beer

preach!!!!

*sippin*

[nickagneta]

geez louise guys....honestly, how can we expect owners and players to work together when the latest posts at cb show we even have trouble doing so.

i love this place, in part because of the civility. please take a nice deep breath, get a good beer, and come back posting good posts....as you usually do.

I got a scotch instead.

But its having the same effect.

 

[hpantazo]

A summary of the proposal (not much different than noted above):

According to league and union officials, the revised offer on the table includes the following improvements:

¶ The midlevel exception for tax-paying teams would be worth $3 million, with a maximum three-year contract, and could be used annually. (The league had proposed $2.5 million, with a two-year maximum, for use every other year.)

¶ A new exception, worth $2.5 million, for up to two years, was created for teams that are just below the cap (i.e. with less than $2.5 million of cap room).

¶ Taxpaying teams would retain the right to conduct sign-and-trade deals in the first two years of the agreement, but would be banned from doing so starting in the third year. Previously, the league proposed banning them immediately.

¶ The minimum team salary would be set at 85 percent of the cap, and increase to 90 percent in the third year of the deal.

¶ Players signed using so-called Bird rights would get 6.5 percent annual raises, up from 5.5 percent in the prior offer.

¶ Players who sign contracts below the average salary would be eligible for opt-out clauses (which are otherwise banned, except in limited situations).

¶ The 10-year labor deal would include a mutual opt-out after the sixth year — at the union’s request — instead of the seventh.

Also, the D-League stuff was *not* in the proposal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/12/sports/basketball/nba-players-weigh-sterns-latest-ultimatum.html?_r=2&ref=sports

Sounds reasonable.  What is shocking though (OK, its not really shocking, but sad) is how little the players actually understand the deal.  I think a lot of the outrage right now is coming from players who don't understand what the actual offer is. 

I think a deal is going to be reached this week, once Hunter and Fisher spin this deal the right way.

This is fairly insulting to the players. Assuming they are too stupid or misinformed to understand this offer could be interpreted in a few different ways, none of them being very flattering to you.

As compared to the deal they had this deal is horrid. They have every right to be outraged. Did you ever think that maybe the reason they are so outraged is because they DO UNDERSTAND the deal and UNDERSTAND how bad it is as compared to the deal they have had for the past 12-13 years or so.

The thing is, if the players are expecting anything close to the deal they had in the previous CBA, then they really do not understand things well, because there is no way that is going to happen. The owners have wised up seeing how other leagues have handled CBA's, and have also lost money, how much they have lost is debatable but they have lost money in this economy, and there is a strong and reasonable movement for the creation of a system that allows for more even competition between markets. No lockout or strike or decertification is going to change any of that.  If the players do not realize this, and are dreaming for the days of old, then they really don't get it.

[nickagneta]

This is fairly insulting to the players. Assuming they are too stupid or misinformed to understand this offer could be interpreted in a few different ways, none of them being very flattering to you.

As compared to the deal they had this deal is horrid. They have every right to be outraged. Did you ever think that maybe the reason they are so outraged is because they DO UNDERSTAND the deal and UNDERSTAND how bad it is as compared to the deal they have had for the past 12-13 years or so.

The thing is, if the players are expecting anything close to the deal they had in the previous CBA, then they really do not understand things well, because there is no way that is going to happen. The owners have wised up seeing how other leagues have handled CBA's, and have also lost money, how much they have lost is debatable but they have lost money in this economy, and there is a strong and reasonable movement for the creation of a system that allows for more even competition between markets. No lockout or strike or decertification is going to change any of that.  If the players do not realize this, and are dreaming for the days of old, then they really don't get it.

Hey, people can understand than plight in life extremely well and still be angry and outraged over it. Lots of people are out of work in America and its not their fault. Doesn't mean they don't understand the situation or that they shouldn't be outraged over it.

You are right though that they need to realize that this is not the last CBA where they had MJ, David Stern's main man, the face of the NBA and the most marketable human being on the face of the planet, on their side during an economic boom. They are dealing with a new economic reality, an NBA with a poorly negotiated national television contract(Thanks Stern), and a new solid group of owners who want major change not a continuation of the same.