Re: Lucky17's Yahoo! FBB H2H League: 2012 Preseason: Constitution Up!

[The Walker Wiggle]

Actually BFM I think WW is being a but sarcastic here...again (Which he leads the league in; and which I treasure him for)

Actually, I'm rarely being sarcastic. I am just that far out of bounds.

[barefacedmonk]

Alright, help me understand the logic behind a ban on swaps. This year, with the lockout and all, we've had a lot of trades..but this year is an exception. But even then, besides some extra work for the commish, what other drawback is there to swapping picks.

[The Walker Wiggle]

But even then, besides some extra work for the commish, what other drawback is there to swapping picks.

I hadn't given it that much thought. None?

I don't understand some of the rules that you and TWW come up with...but if it gives you something to discuss, then by all means...keep discussing.

I believe GC was just responding to FairWeatherFan's suggestion.

These swap deals are getting a little crazy though - maybe we should think about capping them in the future.

[barefacedmonk]

I don't understand some of the rules that you and TWW come up with...but if it gives you something to discuss, then by all means...keep discussing.

I believe GC was just responding to FairWeatherFan's suggestion.

These swap deals are getting a little crazy though - maybe we should think about capping them in the future.

FWF suggested a cap on number of swaps..but GC took it a step further and suggested a ban. I don't see the logic behind either..yes it increases Lucky's workload..but if that's an issue, then maybe each individual GM can keep a track of his picks instead of relying on Lucky to do that for them. Save the emails/PMs when you confirm deals that include swaps....just a suggestion that makes more sense to me compared to a ban/cap.

[Gainesville Celtic]

These swap deals are getting a little crazy though - maybe we should think about capping them in the future.

Why so?  It's basically just trading *first rounders*, with one team retaining an insurance policy. 

2nd rounders you mean...

GMs should keep in mind that the more confusing you make conditions, the more possibility a pick gets traded that can't be traded and that that voids a deal (and that that voiding happens too late or later after someone realizes it, etc.)

I'm trying to keep track of picks swapped, but stuff like this makes it harder obviously. FWIW, We've had a few GMs ask in both leagues in the threads "what picks do I have...?" and multiple conditional statements just make it harder to track and increase the possiblity of a mistake on someone's part.

Actually the more I think about it I wouldn't mind if we banned the right to swap 2nd round picks. Just be bold and say I want this pick or I'll give you that pick.

I'm fine with it on 1st rounders, but 2nd rounders are generally fliers and get moved around so much more -- i think the Nat's 2nd rounder has been dealt 7 times already and the season hasn't even started. (I'd be willing to bet my own-already-traded 2nd rounder that one of these 2nd rounders that's gotten dealt 6-8 times gets missed by the GM how ends up with the pick during next year's draft).

I'd ask GMs to look into their souls  and ask if the difference between the 31 and 39th pick is really enough to make the headaches for Lucky (and to the much lesser extent me as the backup keeper of the lists).

^^ Just FYI, this was my original post that started this pretzel of a discussion...

I don't understand some of the rules that you and TWW come up with...but if it gives you something to discuss, then by all means...keep discussing.

I believe GC was just responding to FairWeatherFan's suggestion.

These swap deals are getting a little crazy though - maybe we should think about capping them in the future.

FWF suggested a cap on number of swaps..but GC took it a step further and suggested a ban. I don't see the logic behind either..yes it increases Lucky's workload..but if that's an issue, then maybe each individual GM can keep a track of his picks instead of relying on Lucky to do that for them. Save the emails/PMs when you confirm deals that include swaps....just a suggestion that makes more sense to me compared to a ban/cap.

I apologize for any confusion I may have created. I went back an reread what I wrote (quoted below) and I can see how it might be misread/misunderstood ....

My intended suggestion was not to ban the *TRADING* of 2nd round picks, it was (and i hope this was clear if you read the full post below), to disallow the *OPTIONS TO SWAP* them.

If Team A has 3 second rounders, I think they and Team B should just agree one which one to trade -- not build increasingly complex conditions that Lucky (or I) have to keep track of and resolve (i.e. Team B gets the middle of the three, but after Team C has exercised it's right to swap).

I was only saying this for 2nd rounders (in part b/c this complexity seems to be unnecessary since the majority of 2nd rounders (though certainly not all) don't make it through their rookie season on the team that drafted them).

This all comes up (and I volunteered to help track the picks) in part because there was a pick in the points league that we couldn't trace back to who owned it fully. There was also an instance in this league, I believe, where there were conditions placed on a pick that were not met and it created a grey area. The GMs worked it out (by sending a player I believe) but it's not like it couldn't happen again.

And already before *THIS* season has started at least one GM has posted that they can't remember what picks they have for the 2012 draft.

I just wanted to avoid a problem in the future and feel like Lucky has enough to do with being the commish of two 20-team leagues.

It's in most ways MOOT b/c we couldn't make a change until the day before next year's draft anyways.

[Rondo2287]

Or you could be like me, trade away your picks and then watch the chaos from a distance

[hpantazo]

just for refresher for all of us, can someone post the rules on draft order determination for both rounds, including the lottery system?

[Gainesville Celtic]

just for refresher for all of us, can someone post the rules on draft order determination for both rounds, including the lottery system?

from the orignal post in this thread:

Order for the Rookie Draft, to be held on Wednesday, October 12, at noon EST/9 AM PST:

1. Birdman Enes Kanter 2. Birdman Derrick Williams 3. barefacedmonk Kyrie Irving 4. fairweatherfan Brandon Knight 5. Kwhit Jan Vesely 6. jgod213 Jonas Valanciunas 7. Gomesfan Jimmer Fredette 8. Kane3387 Kemba Walker 9. Make Me Some Bacon Bismack Biyombo 10. Larrybird17 Tristan Thompson^^ 11. Kane3387 Klay Thompson 12. Rondo2287 Kenneth Faried 13. Kwhit Kawhi Leonard 14. DraftDodgers Alex Burks 15. Birdman Chris Singleton 16. Draft Dodgers Tobias Harris 17. Make Me Some Bacon Nicola Vucevic 18. Make Me Some Bacon Marshon Brooks 19. jgod 213 Jordan Hamilton 20. Larrybird17 Markieff Morris^^

21. Birdman JaJuan Johnson 22. Lucky17 Norris Cole 23. barefacedmonk Donatas Motiejunas 24. Toine's Boys Jeremy Tyler 25. Kane3387 Marcus Morris^^ 26. jgod213 Reggie Jackson 27. fairweatherfan Iman Shumpert 28. Kane3387 Tyler Honeycutt 29. Birdman Shelvin Mack 30. The Naturals Kyle Singler 31. Rondo2287 Keith Benson 32. Edgar Crotors Jimmy Butler 33. Make Me Some Bacon E'Twaun Moore 34. Kwhit Nolan Smith^^ 35. The Naturals Justin Harper 36. Ya'll Hate Nikola Mirotic 37. Utah Flash Chandler Parsons 38. blake Cory Joseph^^ 39. CKs Babytown Frolics Jordan Williams 40. Kwhit Bojan Bogdanovic

^^ missed/assigned pick

Each of you will have 5-10 minutes to post your pick in this thread. The time listed next to each pick is the time the pick is due. Any GM who fails to post a selection by the deadline and who has not sent me a sufficient list of preferences will be assigned the best available player based on the results of the actual 2011 NBA draft.

[Example: the team with the #8 pick fails to make a selection by the deadline, and both Tristan Thompson and Brandon Knight are still available. While Knight was picked #8 in the actual draft, Thompson was picked at #4, so he would be the default selection.]

One new item: starting this season, we will expand the lottery to include the bottom 12 teams. Each of these teams will have the chance to move into the top 3 of the draft, based on the chances of the corresponding NBA teams.

Carrying over from last year: league winner automatically gets #20 pick in the draft, regardless of finish, and league runner-up gets the #19.

Additionally I'd made the suggestion a week or so ago, that folks seemed to agree with, that with the mounting number of decisions we've made about things like this (draft order, lottery) it would be best for everyone and would hopefully avoid confusion/arguments to have a written league constitution.

I volunteered to help and Lucky and I have traded an initial draft outlining the things the league has already decided and/or what has been the de facto practice (i.e. keeping an open roster spot for overseas guys like Rubio). Maybe we can even post a draft later this week!

[fairweatherfan]

I'm sorry if I opened a can of worms too - for the record my opinion is that a single option to swap is fine because it's really easy to keep track of. 

When you get multiple options nested together like TB has it rapidly gets tricky - we sorted it out pretty fast this time, but there's nothing stopping him or anybody else from eventually having 4 or 5 different swap options working together, or pick range restrictions on some of the picks, or anything else.  It's confusing and we could wind up having to retroactively void a deal because someone realizes hours or days later that the swap options make the agreed terms impossible. 

What I said wasn't a reaction to moves that had already happened so much as proposing we put something into place to keep things from getting more tangled.  Maybe just that you can't stack swap options - once you have an option to swap one pick, you can't add another option onto that until the first one is exercised.  But I'm ok with either way, it was just a suggestion.

TP to GC and Lucky for taking time to keep track of this stuff and get some kind of constitution down on paper.  It's appreciated and will help keep things straight for new GMs like myself.

[barefacedmonk]

Dante Cunningham + Ford + #2 on the block. PM if you're interested.

Except LBJ, Deng and PG, the other guys can be had too...for the right price of course.

[hpantazo]

just for refresher for all of us, can someone post the rules on draft order determination for both rounds, including the lottery system?

from the orignal post in this thread:

Order for the Rookie Draft, to be held on Wednesday, October 12, at noon EST/9 AM PST:

1. Birdman Enes Kanter 2. Birdman Derrick Williams 3. barefacedmonk Kyrie Irving 4. fairweatherfan Brandon Knight 5. Kwhit Jan Vesely 6. jgod213 Jonas Valanciunas 7. Gomesfan Jimmer Fredette 8. Kane3387 Kemba Walker 9. Make Me Some Bacon Bismack Biyombo 10. Larrybird17 Tristan Thompson^^ 11. Kane3387 Klay Thompson 12. Rondo2287 Kenneth Faried 13. Kwhit Kawhi Leonard 14. DraftDodgers Alex Burks 15. Birdman Chris Singleton 16. Draft Dodgers Tobias Harris 17. Make Me Some Bacon Nicola Vucevic 18. Make Me Some Bacon Marshon Brooks 19. jgod 213 Jordan Hamilton 20. Larrybird17 Markieff Morris^^

21. Birdman JaJuan Johnson 22. Lucky17 Norris Cole 23. barefacedmonk Donatas Motiejunas 24. Toine's Boys Jeremy Tyler 25. Kane3387 Marcus Morris^^ 26. jgod213 Reggie Jackson 27. fairweatherfan Iman Shumpert 28. Kane3387 Tyler Honeycutt 29. Birdman Shelvin Mack 30. The Naturals Kyle Singler 31. Rondo2287 Keith Benson 32. Edgar Crotors Jimmy Butler 33. Make Me Some Bacon E'Twaun Moore 34. Kwhit Nolan Smith^^ 35. The Naturals Justin Harper 36. Ya'll Hate Nikola Mirotic 37. Utah Flash Chandler Parsons 38. blake Cory Joseph^^ 39. CKs Babytown Frolics Jordan Williams 40. Kwhit Bojan Bogdanovic

^^ missed/assigned pick

Each of you will have 5-10 minutes to post your pick in this thread. The time listed next to each pick is the time the pick is due. Any GM who fails to post a selection by the deadline and who has not sent me a sufficient list of preferences will be assigned the best available player based on the results of the actual 2011 NBA draft.

[Example: the team with the #8 pick fails to make a selection by the deadline, and both Tristan Thompson and Brandon Knight are still available. While Knight was picked #8 in the actual draft, Thompson was picked at #4, so he would be the default selection.]

One new item: starting this season, we will expand the lottery to include the bottom 12 teams. Each of these teams will have the chance to move into the top 3 of the draft, based on the chances of the corresponding NBA teams.

Carrying over from last year: league winner automatically gets #20 pick in the draft, regardless of finish, and league runner-up gets the #19.

Additionally I'd made the suggestion a week or so ago, that folks seemed to agree with, that with the mounting number of decisions we've made about things like this (draft order, lottery) it would be best for everyone and would hopefully avoid confusion/arguments to have a written league constitution.

I volunteered to help and Lucky and I have traded an initial draft outlining the things the league has already decided and/or what has been the de facto practice (i.e. keeping an open roster spot for overseas guys like Rubio). Maybe we can even post a draft later this week!

thanks GC, TP.

[barefacedmonk]

I've given it some more thought and I still don't understand why we have to put a ban on swapping the second rounders. Maybe its just me, but the swaps are not as confusing as GC is trying to make it sound...it increases Lucky's workload, but that's the only drawback. Save the emails/PMs when you offer to swaps picks in a deal...keep a trail instead of relying on Lucky to do it for you..shouldn't be hard and will avoid any confusion if it arises.

Any other GM want to weigh in?

[jgod213]

I've given it some more thought and I still don't understand why we have to put a ban on swapping the second rounders. Maybe its just me, but the swaps are not as confusing as GC is trying to make it sound...it increases Lucky's workload, but that's the only drawback. Save the emails/PMs when you offer to swaps picks in a deal...keep a trail instead of relying on Lucky to do it for you..shouldn't be hard and will avoid any confusion if it arises.

Any other GM want to weigh in?

I dont think anyone is saying we HAVE to ban the trading of picks, i think people are just asking for a gentleman's agreement to limit the amount of swapped, conditional picks so that, for example, when GC offers me a deal including one of these, i don't need to pm him back and say "so wait, if we did this deal how would this draft pick work again?"

[barefacedmonk]

I've given it some more thought and I still don't understand why we have to put a ban on swapping the second rounders. Maybe its just me, but the swaps are not as confusing as GC is trying to make it sound...it increases Lucky's workload, but that's the only drawback. Save the emails/PMs when you offer to swaps picks in a deal...keep a trail instead of relying on Lucky to do it for you..shouldn't be hard and will avoid any confusion if it arises.

Any other GM want to weigh in?

I dont think anyone is saying we HAVE to ban the trading of picks, i think people are just asking for a gentleman's agreement to limit the amount of swapped, conditional picks so that, for example, when GC offers me a deal including one of these, i don't need to pm him back and say "so wait, if we did this deal how would this draft pick work again?"

Actually the more I think about it I wouldn't mind if we banned the right to swap 2nd round picks.

My intended suggestion was not to ban the *TRADING* of 2nd round picks, it was , to disallow the *OPTIONS TO SWAP* them.

Does that sound like "limit the number of swaps"? Disallow =\= limit as far as I understand. And GC did use the word ban..not limit. He suggested a ban on swap of picks..what am I missing? Please explain.

[Lucky17]

Birdman has given me his two cuts: Kelenna Azubuike and Shelvin Mack.

I've removed both from his roster.