Author Topic: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...  (Read 14881 times)

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Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2011, 02:42:08 PM »

Offline Chris

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I feel the players should be making more than just 50/50.

The players are the ones who are doing the work and making the product.

Sure the owners are putting up their money, but that's their job.

Remember, it's part of their job!



I am OK with the players making slightly more than 50%.  I have much more of an issue with them taking such a strong stand on the harder cap. 

Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2011, 02:51:08 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I feel the players should be making more than just 50/50.

The players are the ones who are doing the work and making the product.

Sure the owners are putting up their money, but that's their job.

Remember, it's part of their job!



I am OK with the players making slightly more than 50%.  I have much more of an issue with them taking such a strong stand on the harder cap. 
I agree. If the players really want the 53% they need to compromise on the hard cap a lot.

I do get the feeling though that the owners want as low of a percentage as they can get and as long an agreement as they can get to reap the benefits that a new national television contract is going to bring in 2016. Stern made a horrid deal last time and with the league coming back in popularity, that next deal could be huge.

Of course, if the NBA screws itself by taking a year off, maybe that tv deal won't be so big after all.

Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2011, 02:59:10 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Wow.  Opening this thread, I never would've guessed you guys are talking about giving the PLAYERS even less than 50/50.

That's unbelievably ridiculous.  Do you not know how other pro sports work?  Can somebody find the numbers?  A 50/50 split would be embarrassing in comparison.  Nevermind less.

In the NFL, players get about 47-48% of total revenue.  So, even if baseball and hockey are above 50%, then there is at least a baseline there.
The NFL should work out to about 50% if not a little higher for the players.  They get 55% of the television revenue, which is by far the largest revenue stream in the league.
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Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2011, 03:24:44 PM »

Offline mgent

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Wow.  Opening this thread, I never would've guessed you guys are talking about giving the PLAYERS even less than 50/50.

That's unbelievably ridiculous.  Do you not know how other pro sports work?  Can somebody find the numbers?  A 50/50 split would be embarrassing in comparison.  Nevermind less.

In the NFL, players get about 47-48% of total revenue.  So, even if baseball and hockey are above 50%, then there is at least a baseline there.
Oh, thanks.  Someone said in another thread it was around 55%.  Apparently it was me that didn't know.  I thought baseball got 60+
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Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2011, 03:29:27 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Wow.  Opening this thread, I never would've guessed you guys are talking about giving the PLAYERS even less than 50/50.

That's unbelievably ridiculous.  Do you not know how other pro sports work?  Can somebody find the numbers?  A 50/50 split would be embarrassing in comparison.  Nevermind less.

In the NFL, players get about 47-48% of total revenue.  So, even if baseball and hockey are above 50%, then there is at least a baseline there.
Oh, thanks.  Someone said in another thread it was around 55%.  Apparently it was me that didn't know.
I believe 48% is the floor for the NFL players, they get 55% of TV revenues after some deductions. So the exact percentage likely varies from year to year.

Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2011, 04:08:25 PM »

Offline Inside-Out

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It sure looks like the players are realizing that professional basketball just does not pay anywhere near what they've been making under the last CBA anywhere else in the world.

Why should owners bid against themselves?

Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2011, 04:17:39 PM »

Offline CaptainJackLee

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It sure looks like the players are realizing that professional basketball just does not pay anywhere near what they've been making under the last CBA anywhere else in the world.

Why should owners bid against themselves?

Because they aren't stupid and economics illiterate enough to equate lack of competition to lack of competitors.

Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2011, 04:41:10 PM »

Offline CaptainJackLee

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1. Why should the owners agree to even a 50/50 split? The owners bear all the liability and all the risk in this equation.

The owners have all the liability in this equation -
* They have to pay the salaries of the players, their own staffs (coaches, scouts, trainers, marketing teams, management, security, Doctors, surgeries, the airfares to fly, the equipment, the daily spending allowances while on the road the daily spending fees. They have to pay stadium fees if they don't own the joint, pay the staff during games, insurances on everything, taxes on everything.

They are liable for everything and can be sued seven ways to Sunday for almost anything imaginable.

What, exactly, is the players liability?
* They get a contract because they are uniquely talented at what they do
* They show up on time - "usually" - to play a game, or a practice.
* They have people carrying their bags their sneakers, their clothing, basically their jock strap.
* They fly around the country, stay in 4 star hotels and play a 48 minute game 3-4 times a week. Have some practices and game tape in between and have the summer off.
* Basketball, even practicing is "fun".
* They have world class trainers, doctors and physical therapists pampering them night and day.

They may attract the crowds - but the owners have the liability of putting together the venue for the crowds to enjoy.

I would think anything more than a 53/47 split in favor of the owners would be ridiculously unfair. And it doesn't matter that the owners may make a lot of money. They should, they have all the liability. The players are "employees".  


Some industries are more labour intensive, some are more capital intensive. It depends on the mix of factors of production that result in the output.

Professional sports are one of the most labour intensive industries. Hence why salaries in professional leagues tend to be above 50% of the revenue. In some leagues, in very mature and global sports, like soccer, it goes till 70%-80%. People pay to see the players showcase athletic abilities, the rest of the stuff is pretty irrelevant - so much that if the Celtics and the Lakers were playing each other featuring some random D-League players and at the same time you had Rondo, Pierce and KG battling Kobe, Gasol and Bynum in a Boston Patriots vs Golden California game, the later would attract much more attention and attendance. To put it in simple terms: there are more people with enough money and management know-how to own and operate a professional basketball league than players with enough quality to take the game to a level that becomes fascinating - and profitable.

Owners tend to be pretty irrelevant in this type of industry - at least since United Artists. The investment of capital is relatively low - in fact, most NBA owners didn't need to invest a single cent of their money and very, very few actually manage their franchises - most are absent owners. In most cases, workers in this type of industry aren't even employers, they just have an agent.

It's irrelevant if you believe that what the players do is worth this or that money. If you think it isn't worth your money, stop watching NBA games.


I think you should also rethink your stance on the risk thing. Risk implies investment of one's self wealth. The reason most teams are "losing" money is because owners arent' really investing money in buying them. In fact, in some cases they're using them as cash-cows. Why do you think the Celtics debt-to-equity ratio is 50%? Because Wyc invested his own money and they just borrow a lot to pay for the players salaries? They make more than enough money to pay salaries. Why did they borrow so much money then - do you want to take a guess?

The risk isn't that large if you're not using your own money.

Secondly, what the owners are trying to do is to make owning a NBA franchise a risk-free enterprise. They're trying to game things in order that you can own a franchise in the smallest market, mismanage it badly, sign players that nobody wants to see, p--- off your community and fanbase to the point that nobody wants to buy tickets or turn on the tv, win 15 games, waste a lot of money hiring 14 of your relatives, sign your GM's son or your favourite barmaid as scouts, don't care a bit about maximizing revenue or minimizing expenses... and still make a profit.

There's no risk in the type of business owners are trying to create with their CBA proposal.

Quote
2. I can understand a massive labor brawl during great economic times. But this labor strike is affecting thousands of related jobs that are desperately needed by people during one of the worst economic downturns since the great depression.

I think it just looks really bad for the league that these two camps are in a p---ing match about exactly how many millions they each will end up making.

And I am all for KG, Kobe, etc, making $20 mil a year if the market bears it. I love it

But in this economic environment, where so many other people are relying on the related jobs the NBA creates - I say everyone get back to work immediately under the current agreement or a slightly altered agreement for one year, with ongoing negotiations for a final deal being done behind the scenes throughout the season.

My two cents.    
      

It's amazing that people are still talking about a strike.

It's a lockout.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 04:53:58 PM by CaptainJackLee »

Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2011, 05:29:08 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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It's amazing that people are still talking about a strike.

It's a lockout.
Yeah. That is ridiculous and lazy. People should at least know the most basic points if they are going to form strong opinions and make them public.

Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2011, 09:58:33 PM »

Offline Inside-Out

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Even if everything CaptainJack says is true, and it seems so to me, there is still nowhere else in the world that is going to pay even the best stars more than, what, $5M per season?  And that offer to Kobe is still such a stretch that they can't close the deal over there in Italy.

It sure does look like both sides are intent, if not on killing, at least choking the Golden Goose until it passes out.

Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2011, 06:42:38 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Even if everything CaptainJack says is true, and it seems so to me, there is still nowhere else in the world that is going to pay even the best stars more than, what, $5M per season?  And that offer to Kobe is still such a stretch that they can't close the deal over there in Italy.

It sure does look like both sides are intent, if not on killing, at least choking the Golden Goose until it passes out.
Deron Williams is making 5 million euros net, is provided a furnished luxury appartment, a luxury car with driver, a full security team, and numerous other perks.  He is making close to what he is in the states and that is as an outlier.  If all the big time players played in Europe, the money would follow.
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Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2011, 10:59:04 AM »

Offline LB3533

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Even if everything CaptainJack says is true, and it seems so to me, there is still nowhere else in the world that is going to pay even the best stars more than, what, $5M per season?  And that offer to Kobe is still such a stretch that they can't close the deal over there in Italy.

It sure does look like both sides are intent, if not on killing, at least choking the Golden Goose until it passes out.
Deron Williams is making 5 million euros net, is provided a furnished luxury appartment, a luxury car with driver, a full security team, and numerous other perks.  He is making close to what he is in the states and that is as an outlier.  If all the big time players played in Europe, the money would follow.

I agree, the money would definitely follow.

The US economy is kinda broke. It's quite possible, the superstars of the NBA will still live like Kings, playing in European or Asian countries.

Different, international opportunities will open up.

Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2011, 10:56:28 AM »

Offline CaptainJackLee

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Even if everything CaptainJack says is true, and it seems so to me, there is still nowhere else in the world that is going to pay even the best stars more than, what, $5M per season?  And that offer to Kobe is still such a stretch that they can't close the deal over there in Italy.

It sure does look like both sides are intent, if not on killing, at least choking the Golden Goose until it passes out.

Competitors =! Competition.

You're confusing the two.

Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2011, 12:19:36 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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From today's ESPN report:

Quote
Sources told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard that the owners are once again offering a 49-51 range of the basketball-related income to the players. That is essentially where the players would get a minimum of 49 percent of BRI or a max of 51 percent depending on how much revenue the league takes in that year.

...

Also, while the sides haven't agreed to anything, the owners have been open to accepting a $5 million midlevel exception, sources told Broussard. That's down from $5.8 million under the old agreement but up from the $3.4 million the owners had been offering.

...

Grousbeck chairs the planning committee, which is charged with developing a new revenue sharing system for basketball. More robust revenue sharing is a key aspect of the economic reforms the NBA intends to implement this offseason.

Stern has said owners will have an expanded revenue sharing package among teams once the collective bargaining agreement with the players has been completed.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7123567/nba-lockout-second-day-mediation-ends-sides-return-thursday

Seems like the owners have been a lot more movable from their originals stances than the players. They have gone from a 57-43 split in their favor to a possible 49-51 split in the players favor and they moved from a once $3 million MLE to now a $5 million MLE. Then went from strict hard cap to a penalizing luxury tax(face it, if owners of big market teams can go over the cap, they will, penalty be [dang]ed).

To me this is proof of some of the claims I have been saying have not been credible coming from the owners. They say the system is broke and the system is losing more than $300 million a year yet if they accept a 6% giveback by the players they are accepting only $240 million back from them. Which means their original numbers had to be bull.

Not to mention that the Philadelphia 76ers were just sold in the middle of a lockout which could mean the purchasers would be losing huge money their first year, yet, they bought the team anyway. Kind of illogical given the fact they bought a team that ranks about 25th in attendance year in and year out.

For those crying for the owner of the distressed Philadelphia 76ers know that he bought the team from Harold Katz in 1996 for $130 million and 15 years later is selling 90% interest in the team for $280 million.

Re: Why a 50 / 50 Split? and another thought...
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2011, 12:25:54 PM »

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'We're still very far apart on important issues'

Boy oh boy am I SICK TO DEATH of hearing that! I liked it better when there was no news to be heard.