Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?

[BballTim]

Celtics by order of USG% in the regular season
Bradley
Pierce
Garnett
Robinson
Davis
Shaq
Green
Allen
Rondo
Krstic


USG% isn't a stat that tells you much of anything with respect to the importance of a player to a team.  It certainly could mean something, like with Pierce and KG, or it could not like with Allen and Rondo.

Yeah USG is definitely a stat that requires context and role on a team to understand. USG basically looks to see how often a player commits a FGA, AST, or TO per 100 possessions. Rondo barely shoots for the amount of time he handles the ball, and while he turns the ball over fairly frequently and his assist rate is second only to steve Nash, his FGA's per 40 minutes barely even touch the top 50....among PG's who played more than 40 games last season AND played 20+minutes per game.

He barely touches the top 50 in FGA's, among rotation-level point guards. His USG should be miniscule.

I know what USG is, I was commenting to BBallTIm's comment that because Haslem and Miller have a small USG, that improvements from them won't greatly improve the Heat.  I just put the C's USG up there to bring that point home.  Of course USG has absolutely nothing to do with defense, rebounding, or any other manner in which a player can contribute to a teams success.  Will Haslem and Miller being healthy greatly improve the Heat's offense, no probably not (Miller will improve it moreso then Haslem), but them being healthy IMO will greatly improve the Heat overall as a team.  The Heat really lacked a guy to do the dirty work inside like Haslem, and they did lack some outside shooting and toughness on the perimeter that Miller can provide.  It also means James Jones and Joel Anthony aren't getting near the minutes, which will only help the team.  

  A team with Bosh and Haslem in the middle may rebound better than Bosh/Anthony but they won't protect the rim at all. And Miller's only had one season in his career where he shot threes appreciably better than Jones did last year.

[BballTim]

Celtics by order of USG% in the regular season
Bradley
Pierce
Garnett
Robinson
Davis
Shaq
Green
Allen
Rondo
Krstic


USG% isn't a stat that tells you much of anything with respect to the importance of a player to a team.  It certainly could mean something, like with Pierce and KG, or it could not like with Allen and Rondo.

Yeah USG is definitely a stat that requires context and role on a team to understand. USG basically looks to see how often a player commits a FGA, AST, or TO per 100 possessions. Rondo barely shoots for the amount of time he handles the ball, and while he turns the ball over fairly frequently and his assist rate is second only to steve Nash, his FGA's per 40 minutes barely even touch the top 50....among PG's who played more than 40 games last season AND played 20+minutes per game.

He barely touches the top 50 in FGA's, among rotation-level point guards. His USG should be miniscule.

I know what USG is, I was commenting to BBallTIm's comment that because Haslem and Miller have a small USG, that improvements from them won't greatly improve the Heat.

  I'd just like to point out that my comment was that that improvements to them wouldn't greatly improve the Heat because they have such small roles on the team, and was just using USG% to illustrate how small that role was.

[indeedproceed]

Celtics by order of USG% in the regular season
Bradley
Pierce
Garnett
Robinson
Davis
Shaq
Green
Allen
Rondo
Krstic


USG% isn't a stat that tells you much of anything with respect to the importance of a player to a team.  It certainly could mean something, like with Pierce and KG, or it could not like with Allen and Rondo.

Yeah USG is definitely a stat that requires context and role on a team to understand. USG basically looks to see how often a player commits a FGA, AST, or TO per 100 possessions. Rondo barely shoots for the amount of time he handles the ball, and while he turns the ball over fairly frequently and his assist rate is second only to steve Nash, his FGA's per 40 minutes barely even touch the top 50....among PG's who played more than 40 games last season AND played 20+minutes per game.

He barely touches the top 50 in FGA's, among rotation-level point guards. His USG should be miniscule.

I know what USG is, I was commenting to BBallTIm's comment that because Haslem and Miller have a small USG, that improvements from them won't greatly improve the Heat.  I just put the C's USG up there to bring that point home.  Of course USG has absolutely nothing to do with defense, rebounding, or any other manner in which a player can contribute to a teams success.  Will Haslem and Miller being healthy greatly improve the Heat's offense, no probably not (Miller will improve it moreso then Haslem), but them being healthy IMO will greatly improve the Heat overall as a team.  The Heat really lacked a guy to do the dirty work inside like Haslem, and they did lack some outside shooting and toughness on the perimeter that Miller can provide.  It also means James Jones and Joel Anthony aren't getting near the minutes, which will only help the team. 

  A team with Bosh and Haslem in the middle may rebound better than Bosh/Anthony but they won't protect the rim at all. And Miller's only had one season in his career where he shot threes appreciably better than Jones did last year.

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

[Moranis]

Celtics by order of USG% in the regular season
Bradley
Pierce
Garnett
Robinson
Davis
Shaq
Green
Allen
Rondo
Krstic


USG% isn't a stat that tells you much of anything with respect to the importance of a player to a team.  It certainly could mean something, like with Pierce and KG, or it could not like with Allen and Rondo.

Yeah USG is definitely a stat that requires context and role on a team to understand. USG basically looks to see how often a player commits a FGA, AST, or TO per 100 possessions. Rondo barely shoots for the amount of time he handles the ball, and while he turns the ball over fairly frequently and his assist rate is second only to steve Nash, his FGA's per 40 minutes barely even touch the top 50....among PG's who played more than 40 games last season AND played 20+minutes per game.

He barely touches the top 50 in FGA's, among rotation-level point guards. His USG should be miniscule.

I know what USG is, I was commenting to BBallTIm's comment that because Haslem and Miller have a small USG, that improvements from them won't greatly improve the Heat.  I just put the C's USG up there to bring that point home.  Of course USG has absolutely nothing to do with defense, rebounding, or any other manner in which a player can contribute to a teams success.  Will Haslem and Miller being healthy greatly improve the Heat's offense, no probably not (Miller will improve it moreso then Haslem), but them being healthy IMO will greatly improve the Heat overall as a team.  The Heat really lacked a guy to do the dirty work inside like Haslem, and they did lack some outside shooting and toughness on the perimeter that Miller can provide.  It also means James Jones and Joel Anthony aren't getting near the minutes, which will only help the team. 

  A team with Bosh and Haslem in the middle may rebound better than Bosh/Anthony but they won't protect the rim at all. And Miller's only had one season in his career where he shot threes appreciably better than Jones did last year.

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

Exactly and Haslem is better in pretty much every regard then Anthony, who he would replace in the lineup.  If you upgrade two spots on the floor, your team gets better, and if you make a pretty hefty upgrade, which IMO Haslem and Miller are, then your team should be significantly better.  That also doesn't account for the free agent center I'm pretty sure the Heat are going to sign nor a full season of Bibby, which should increase the PG play overall.

[BballTim]

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

  Again, if you're expecting Miller to be a ball handler, shot creator or facilitator when he's on the court with James and/or Wade you're mistaken. For the, what, 1-2 possessions a game he fills one of these roles (if that many) you may have an advantage.

[BballTim]

Celtics by order of USG% in the regular season
Bradley
Pierce
Garnett
Robinson
Davis
Shaq
Green
Allen
Rondo
Krstic


USG% isn't a stat that tells you much of anything with respect to the importance of a player to a team.  It certainly could mean something, like with Pierce and KG, or it could not like with Allen and Rondo.

Yeah USG is definitely a stat that requires context and role on a team to understand. USG basically looks to see how often a player commits a FGA, AST, or TO per 100 possessions. Rondo barely shoots for the amount of time he handles the ball, and while he turns the ball over fairly frequently and his assist rate is second only to steve Nash, his FGA's per 40 minutes barely even touch the top 50....among PG's who played more than 40 games last season AND played 20+minutes per game.

He barely touches the top 50 in FGA's, among rotation-level point guards. His USG should be miniscule.

I know what USG is, I was commenting to BBallTIm's comment that because Haslem and Miller have a small USG, that improvements from them won't greatly improve the Heat.  I just put the C's USG up there to bring that point home.  Of course USG has absolutely nothing to do with defense, rebounding, or any other manner in which a player can contribute to a teams success.  Will Haslem and Miller being healthy greatly improve the Heat's offense, no probably not (Miller will improve it moreso then Haslem), but them being healthy IMO will greatly improve the Heat overall as a team.  The Heat really lacked a guy to do the dirty work inside like Haslem, and they did lack some outside shooting and toughness on the perimeter that Miller can provide.  It also means James Jones and Joel Anthony aren't getting near the minutes, which will only help the team. 

  A team with Bosh and Haslem in the middle may rebound better than Bosh/Anthony but they won't protect the rim at all. And Miller's only had one season in his career where he shot threes appreciably better than Jones did last year.

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

Exactly and Haslem is better in pretty much every regard then Anthony, who he would replace in the lineup.  If you upgrade two spots on the floor, your team gets better, and if you make a pretty hefty upgrade, which IMO Haslem and Miller are, then your team should be significantly better.  That also doesn't account for the free agent center I'm pretty sure the Heat are going to sign nor a full season of Bibby, which should increase the PG play overall.

  Haslem is better aside than Anthony other than guarding the rim and shotblocking, two areas where Bosh is also not the best. And, yes, upgrading two spots on the floor does make your team better. But you're completely ignoring the fact that the smaller the role someone plays, the smaller the benefit to upgrading them. I agree that if Wade or James or even Bosh were on another team then upgrading two starters would make a bigger difference. That's not the case.

  And, as for Bibby, *what* pg play is he going to improve?

[indeedproceed]

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

  Again, if you're expecting Miller to be a ball handler, shot creator or facilitator when he's on the court with James and/or Wade you're mistaken. For the, what, 1-2 possessions a game he fills one of these roles (if that many) you may have an advantage.

That's a different point than the one I was addressing. You said that Miller for his career is not as good a 3pt shooter than James Jones, I was conceding that's true, but that does not really describe his potential value to a team.

A back-court of Miller-Wade-James, with a front-court of Bosh-(Haslem/Anthony) if Miller is healthy and adjusted to the playing style is way better than any lineup they trotted out last year. 3 swingmen who can all facilitate an offense, as well as create their own shot and rebound exceptionally well? Its a dangerous combo.

[BballTim]

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

  Again, if you're expecting Miller to be a ball handler, shot creator or facilitator when he's on the court with James and/or Wade you're mistaken. For the, what, 1-2 possessions a game he fills one of these roles (if that many) you may have an advantage.

That's a different point than the one I was addressing. You said that Miller for his career is not as good a 3pt shooter than James Jones, I was conceding that's true, but that does not really describe his potential value to a team.

A back-court of Miller-Wade-James, with a front-court of Bosh-(Haslem/Anthony) if Miller is healthy and adjusted to the playing style is way better than any lineup they trotted out last year. 3 swingmen who can all facilitate an offense, as well as create their own shot and rebound exceptionally well? Its a dangerous combo.

  Ok, but I'm not talking about Miller's value to *a* team, but Miller's value to a team where his role is almost exclusively spot up shooter. Not to mention that Miller's ability to create his own shot and facilitate the offense is hampered by playing with two slashers (Wade and James) who won't do much for floor spacing if, and I know how unusual this sounds, neither one of them is controlling the ball.

[Moranis]

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

  Again, if you're expecting Miller to be a ball handler, shot creator or facilitator when he's on the court with James and/or Wade you're mistaken. For the, what, 1-2 possessions a game he fills one of these roles (if that many) you may have an advantage.

That's a different point than the one I was addressing. You said that Miller for his career is not as good a 3pt shooter than James Jones, I was conceding that's true, but that does not really describe his potential value to a team.

A back-court of Miller-Wade-James, with a front-court of Bosh-(Haslem/Anthony) if Miller is healthy and adjusted to the playing style is way better than any lineup they trotted out last year. 3 swingmen who can all facilitate an offense, as well as create their own shot and rebound exceptionally well? Its a dangerous combo.

  Ok, but I'm not talking about Miller's value to *a* team, but Miller's value to a team where his role is almost exclusively spot up shooter. Not to mention that Miller's ability to create his own shot and facilitate the offense is hampered by playing with two slashers (Wade and James) who won't do much for floor spacing if, and I know how unusual this sounds, neither one of them is controlling the ball.

Why are you assuming his role is going to be exclusively as a spot up shooter? 

[BballTim]

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

  Again, if you're expecting Miller to be a ball handler, shot creator or facilitator when he's on the court with James and/or Wade you're mistaken. For the, what, 1-2 possessions a game he fills one of these roles (if that many) you may have an advantage.

That's a different point than the one I was addressing. You said that Miller for his career is not as good a 3pt shooter than James Jones, I was conceding that's true, but that does not really describe his potential value to a team.

A back-court of Miller-Wade-James, with a front-court of Bosh-(Haslem/Anthony) if Miller is healthy and adjusted to the playing style is way better than any lineup they trotted out last year. 3 swingmen who can all facilitate an offense, as well as create their own shot and rebound exceptionally well? Its a dangerous combo.

  Ok, but I'm not talking about Miller's value to *a* team, but Miller's value to a team where his role is almost exclusively spot up shooter. Not to mention that Miller's ability to create his own shot and facilitate the offense is hampered by playing with two slashers (Wade and James) who won't do much for floor spacing if, and I know how unusual this sounds, neither one of them is controlling the ball.

Why are you assuming his role is going to be exclusively as a spot up shooter? 

  Years of watching Lebron and Wade, watching the Heat this year, watching Bibby, Miller and Haslem play for the Heat this year. Why are you assuming he'll have a different role?

  Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see LeBron and Wade share the ballhandling/facilitating with Bibby and/or Miller. They'll be lucky to get to the conference finals.

[mgent]

I'm with BballTim here, offensively, anything other than shooting is pretty much wasted in Miami.  A player like Jones that is only in the league because he can shoot 3s is destined to be on the Heat.  It helps that when it comes to 3s, he's at the very top of the league.  Overall, he's going to produce about the same as Miller on a team like that (compared to say the Celtics, where his rebounding and shot-creating is greatly needed).

Anthony/Haslem on the other hand, I'm not so sure.  Haslem's mid-range is huge for them.

[indeedproceed]

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

  Again, if you're expecting Miller to be a ball handler, shot creator or facilitator when he's on the court with James and/or Wade you're mistaken. For the, what, 1-2 possessions a game he fills one of these roles (if that many) you may have an advantage.

That's a different point than the one I was addressing. You said that Miller for his career is not as good a 3pt shooter than James Jones, I was conceding that's true, but that does not really describe his potential value to a team.

A back-court of Miller-Wade-James, with a front-court of Bosh-(Haslem/Anthony) if Miller is healthy and adjusted to the playing style is way better than any lineup they trotted out last year. 3 swingmen who can all facilitate an offense, as well as create their own shot and rebound exceptionally well? Its a dangerous combo.

  Ok, but I'm not talking about Miller's value to *a* team, but Miller's value to a team where his role is almost exclusively spot up shooter. Not to mention that Miller's ability to create his own shot and facilitate the offense is hampered by playing with two slashers (Wade and James) who won't do much for floor spacing if, and I know how unusual this sounds, neither one of them is controlling the ball.

Why are you assuming his role is going to be exclusively as a spot up shooter? 

  Years of watching Lebron and Wade, watching the Heat this year, watching Bibby, Miller and Haslem play for the Heat this year. Why are you assuming he'll have a different role?

  Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see LeBron and Wade share the ballhandling/facilitating with Bibby and/or Miller. They'll be lucky to get to the conference finals.

Well to be fair to Miller he was coming back from injury all year and never really had a shot to do much. Also, he's only 1 year removed from being a 48% 3pt shooter.

Also, I think your idea of what Mike Miller's role on the team should be or is is a little bit too broad. Landry Fields plays with Amar'e Stoudemire, he is an excellent facilitator (Fields, not Stat) because he throws killer entry passes and never tries to do things beyond his means. He doesn't get the assists, but he does have the skill to get Amar'e the ball in places with enough space to do some damage with his matchup. Miller can do that also.

[BASS_THUMPER]

how long has rondo been a celtic?

since 2006?..bench..supporting role?

paul been a celtic since 1998 and was a starter from day one..

rondo is not that dude to take us to the next level..
players like paul come around every once in awhile..rondos are a dime a dozen..

click yall heels like dorothy...and ya still wont get to kansas

[BballTim]

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

  Again, if you're expecting Miller to be a ball handler, shot creator or facilitator when he's on the court with James and/or Wade you're mistaken. For the, what, 1-2 possessions a game he fills one of these roles (if that many) you may have an advantage.

That's a different point than the one I was addressing. You said that Miller for his career is not as good a 3pt shooter than James Jones, I was conceding that's true, but that does not really describe his potential value to a team.

A back-court of Miller-Wade-James, with a front-court of Bosh-(Haslem/Anthony) if Miller is healthy and adjusted to the playing style is way better than any lineup they trotted out last year. 3 swingmen who can all facilitate an offense, as well as create their own shot and rebound exceptionally well? Its a dangerous combo.

  Ok, but I'm not talking about Miller's value to *a* team, but Miller's value to a team where his role is almost exclusively spot up shooter. Not to mention that Miller's ability to create his own shot and facilitate the offense is hampered by playing with two slashers (Wade and James) who won't do much for floor spacing if, and I know how unusual this sounds, neither one of them is controlling the ball.

Why are you assuming his role is going to be exclusively as a spot up shooter? 

  Years of watching Lebron and Wade, watching the Heat this year, watching Bibby, Miller and Haslem play for the Heat this year. Why are you assuming he'll have a different role?

  Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see LeBron and Wade share the ballhandling/facilitating with Bibby and/or Miller. They'll be lucky to get to the conference finals.

Well to be fair to Miller he was coming back from injury all year and never really had a shot to do much. Also, he's only 1 year removed from being a 48% 3pt shooter.

Also, I think your idea of what Mike Miller's role on the team should be or is is a little bit too broad. Landry Fields plays with Amar'e Stoudemire, he is an excellent facilitator (Fields, not Stat) because he throws killer entry passes and never tries to do things beyond his means. He doesn't get the assists, but he does have the skill to get Amar'e the ball in places with enough space to do some damage with his matchup. Miller can do that also.

  Miller's 1 year removed from being a 48% 3 point shooter, and 2 years removed from being a 38% 3 point shooter. And are you really comparing Amare's offensive game to LeBron's?

 

[indeedproceed]

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

  Again, if you're expecting Miller to be a ball handler, shot creator or facilitator when he's on the court with James and/or Wade you're mistaken. For the, what, 1-2 possessions a game he fills one of these roles (if that many) you may have an advantage.

That's a different point than the one I was addressing. You said that Miller for his career is not as good a 3pt shooter than James Jones, I was conceding that's true, but that does not really describe his potential value to a team.

A back-court of Miller-Wade-James, with a front-court of Bosh-(Haslem/Anthony) if Miller is healthy and adjusted to the playing style is way better than any lineup they trotted out last year. 3 swingmen who can all facilitate an offense, as well as create their own shot and rebound exceptionally well? Its a dangerous combo.

  Ok, but I'm not talking about Miller's value to *a* team, but Miller's value to a team where his role is almost exclusively spot up shooter. Not to mention that Miller's ability to create his own shot and facilitate the offense is hampered by playing with two slashers (Wade and James) who won't do much for floor spacing if, and I know how unusual this sounds, neither one of them is controlling the ball.

Why are you assuming his role is going to be exclusively as a spot up shooter? 

  Years of watching Lebron and Wade, watching the Heat this year, watching Bibby, Miller and Haslem play for the Heat this year. Why are you assuming he'll have a different role?

  Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see LeBron and Wade share the ballhandling/facilitating with Bibby and/or Miller. They'll be lucky to get to the conference finals.

Well to be fair to Miller he was coming back from injury all year and never really had a shot to do much. Also, he's only 1 year removed from being a 48% 3pt shooter.

Also, I think your idea of what Mike Miller's role on the team should be or is is a little bit too broad. Landry Fields plays with Amar'e Stoudemire, he is an excellent facilitator (Fields, not Stat) because he throws killer entry passes and never tries to do things beyond his means. He doesn't get the assists, but he does have the skill to get Amar'e the ball in places with enough space to do some damage with his matchup. Miller can do that also.

  Miller's 1 year removed from being a 48% 3 point shooter, and 2 years removed from being a 38% 3 point shooter. And are you really comparing Amare's offensive game to LeBron's?

 

No, I'm comparing Amar'e ability to create his own shot when in single coverage with LeBron and Wade's ability to do the same thing.