Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?

[BballTim]

]Even if we would have beaten the Heat last year, the Heat will be much better next year (if there is a season) and we will be worse without making signficant moves.  The Celtics are an old team and it showed down the stretch against the Heat.  The C's just flat out faded in the 4th quarter of virtually every game because the old guys just didn't have the legs to play playoff basketball at a high rate night in and night out.  That will only get worse next year.

  The only way the Heat will be significantly better next year is if Wade or LeBron start shooting like Ray, or at least like PP. They dominate the game too much for role players to have a big impact. The old guys on the Celts don't have the legs to play every night without a healthy Rondo or a healthy center. They didn't look appreciably older last year than in 2010 when they went to the finals.

So a healthy Haslem and Miller and Bibby for a full season won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  A full season of playing together won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  You know what else I found incredibly hard to believe, that the Heat won't sign a center in the offseason.  Sure Lebron and Wade will dominate the ball, but the rest of the team will be better.

  If you want to say the Heat will be better, that's not incredibly hard to believe. But I find it incredibly hard to believe that such smallish changes will make the Heat a *much* better team. Clearly LeBron and Wade will dominate the ball, and this will marginalize the impact of upgrades to role players.

[FatjohnReturns]

Because Rondo is marginal. He has the ball in his hands every open court possession and at least 90% in the half court. If you gave any NBA level guard the ball as much as Rondo you could acheive similar assist results.

Oh yea and he is a 6 year pro who cant make half his free throws.

[BballTim]

Because Rondo is marginal. He has the ball in his hands every open court possession and at least 90% in the half court. If you gave any NBA level guard the ball as much as Rondo you could acheive similar assist results.

Oh yea and he is a 6 year pro who cant make half his free throws.

  You're kidding yourself if you think Rondo has the ball in his hands more than other top guards, or even as much as many of them. I guess that the ones that don't get the assist totals of Rondo don't qualify as nba level guards?

  Rondo's assist total was the 5th highest of any guard since the 99-00 season, and the reason it wasn't the highest was because he was playing through injuries for much of the season. Obviously these high assist totals are much more rare than you realize.

[Moranis]

]Even if we would have beaten the Heat last year, the Heat will be much better next year (if there is a season) and we will be worse without making signficant moves.  The Celtics are an old team and it showed down the stretch against the Heat.  The C's just flat out faded in the 4th quarter of virtually every game because the old guys just didn't have the legs to play playoff basketball at a high rate night in and night out.  That will only get worse next year.

  The only way the Heat will be significantly better next year is if Wade or LeBron start shooting like Ray, or at least like PP. They dominate the game too much for role players to have a big impact. The old guys on the Celts don't have the legs to play every night without a healthy Rondo or a healthy center. They didn't look appreciably older last year than in 2010 when they went to the finals.

So a healthy Haslem and Miller and Bibby for a full season won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  A full season of playing together won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  You know what else I found incredibly hard to believe, that the Heat won't sign a center in the offseason.  Sure Lebron and Wade will dominate the ball, but the rest of the team will be better.

  If you want to say the Heat will be better, that's not incredibly hard to believe. But I find it incredibly hard to believe that such smallish changes will make the Heat a *much* better team. Clearly LeBron and Wade will dominate the ball, and this will marginalize the impact of upgrades to role players.

How is getting your 4th and 5th best player healthy a smallish change?  I mean look at how much different the Lakers are when Bynum plays then when Bynum doesn't play.  If Ray Allen and Jermaine O'Neal didn't play, how much worse would the Celtics be.  Haslem and Miller are excellent players for that team as they do things that the team is lacking.

[BballTim]

]Even if we would have beaten the Heat last year, the Heat will be much better next year (if there is a season) and we will be worse without making signficant moves.  The Celtics are an old team and it showed down the stretch against the Heat.  The C's just flat out faded in the 4th quarter of virtually every game because the old guys just didn't have the legs to play playoff basketball at a high rate night in and night out.  That will only get worse next year.

  The only way the Heat will be significantly better next year is if Wade or LeBron start shooting like Ray, or at least like PP. They dominate the game too much for role players to have a big impact. The old guys on the Celts don't have the legs to play every night without a healthy Rondo or a healthy center. They didn't look appreciably older last year than in 2010 when they went to the finals.

So a healthy Haslem and Miller and Bibby for a full season won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  A full season of playing together won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  You know what else I found incredibly hard to believe, that the Heat won't sign a center in the offseason.  Sure Lebron and Wade will dominate the ball, but the rest of the team will be better.

  If you want to say the Heat will be better, that's not incredibly hard to believe. But I find it incredibly hard to believe that such smallish changes will make the Heat a *much* better team. Clearly LeBron and Wade will dominate the ball, and this will marginalize the impact of upgrades to role players.

How is getting your 4th and 5th best player healthy a smallish change?  I mean look at how much different the Lakers are when Bynum plays then when Bynum doesn't play.  If Ray Allen and Jermaine O'Neal didn't play, how much worse would the Celtics be.  Haslem and Miller are excellent players for that team as they do things that the team is lacking.

  First if all, Haslem and Miller aren't anywhere near the class of Allen or Bynum and probably not as good as a somewhat healthy JO. Secondly, the Heat are much more centered around its stars then the Heat or the Lakers. When Miller and Walton played this year they had a usage% similar to Arroyo on the Celts or Luke Walton on the Lakers.

[Moranis]

]Even if we would have beaten the Heat last year, the Heat will be much better next year (if there is a season) and we will be worse without making signficant moves.  The Celtics are an old team and it showed down the stretch against the Heat.  The C's just flat out faded in the 4th quarter of virtually every game because the old guys just didn't have the legs to play playoff basketball at a high rate night in and night out.  That will only get worse next year.

  The only way the Heat will be significantly better next year is if Wade or LeBron start shooting like Ray, or at least like PP. They dominate the game too much for role players to have a big impact. The old guys on the Celts don't have the legs to play every night without a healthy Rondo or a healthy center. They didn't look appreciably older last year than in 2010 when they went to the finals.

So a healthy Haslem and Miller and Bibby for a full season won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  A full season of playing together won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  You know what else I found incredibly hard to believe, that the Heat won't sign a center in the offseason.  Sure Lebron and Wade will dominate the ball, but the rest of the team will be better.

  If you want to say the Heat will be better, that's not incredibly hard to believe. But I find it incredibly hard to believe that such smallish changes will make the Heat a *much* better team. Clearly LeBron and Wade will dominate the ball, and this will marginalize the impact of upgrades to role players.

How is getting your 4th and 5th best player healthy a smallish change?  I mean look at how much different the Lakers are when Bynum plays then when Bynum doesn't play.  If Ray Allen and Jermaine O'Neal didn't play, how much worse would the Celtics be.  Haslem and Miller are excellent players for that team as they do things that the team is lacking.

  First if all, Haslem and Miller aren't anywhere near the class of Allen or Bynum and probably not as good as a somewhat healthy JO. Secondly, the Heat are much more centered around its stars then the Heat or the Lakers. When Miller and Walton played this year they had a usage% similar to Arroyo on the Celts or Luke Walton on the Lakers.

Avery Bradley has the highest USG% on the Celtics.  I wouldn't put much stock in that particular statistic.

[wdleehi]

Miami doesn't have to get that much better.  In their first year, they were in the Finals. 


The Celtics face a uphill battle against them at this point.  A battle I think they can win if they are healthy and if they strengthen their C spot. 



For this year, the only Rondo move I would make is to trade for Paul or Williams.  That's it. 

Unless there is multiple injuries to the three stars.  Then, it might be time to think about planning for the future.  (big time season ending injuries)



Rondo is a big part of this teams future.  I am just not sure if it is as a player or a big trade piece. 

[BballTim]

]Even if we would have beaten the Heat last year, the Heat will be much better next year (if there is a season) and we will be worse without making signficant moves.  The Celtics are an old team and it showed down the stretch against the Heat.  The C's just flat out faded in the 4th quarter of virtually every game because the old guys just didn't have the legs to play playoff basketball at a high rate night in and night out.  That will only get worse next year.

  The only way the Heat will be significantly better next year is if Wade or LeBron start shooting like Ray, or at least like PP. They dominate the game too much for role players to have a big impact. The old guys on the Celts don't have the legs to play every night without a healthy Rondo or a healthy center. They didn't look appreciably older last year than in 2010 when they went to the finals.

So a healthy Haslem and Miller and Bibby for a full season won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  A full season of playing together won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  You know what else I found incredibly hard to believe, that the Heat won't sign a center in the offseason.  Sure Lebron and Wade will dominate the ball, but the rest of the team will be better.

  If you want to say the Heat will be better, that's not incredibly hard to believe. But I find it incredibly hard to believe that such smallish changes will make the Heat a *much* better team. Clearly LeBron and Wade will dominate the ball, and this will marginalize the impact of upgrades to role players.

How is getting your 4th and 5th best player healthy a smallish change?  I mean look at how much different the Lakers are when Bynum plays then when Bynum doesn't play.  If Ray Allen and Jermaine O'Neal didn't play, how much worse would the Celtics be.  Haslem and Miller are excellent players for that team as they do things that the team is lacking.

  First if all, Haslem and Miller aren't anywhere near the class of Allen or Bynum and probably not as good as a somewhat healthy JO. Secondly, the Heat are much more centered around its stars then the Heat or the Lakers. When Miller and Haslem played this year they had a usage% similar to Arroyo on the Celts or Luke Walton on the Lakers.

Avery Bradley has the highest USG% on the Celtics.  I wouldn't put much stock in that particular statistic.

  Now *that's* funny. The fact that you were able to come up with an obscure outlier from someone who barely plays makes it an unreliable stat? Haha. Maybe, and this is just a guess mind you, one of the reasons Avery would have a higher usage rate is that Ray appears in 2 of his top 10 5 man groups, Paul is in one and KG isn't in any. Don't you think his usage numbers would drastically fall if he were regularly on the court with the big three?

[Moranis]

]Even if we would have beaten the Heat last year, the Heat will be much better next year (if there is a season) and we will be worse without making signficant moves.  The Celtics are an old team and it showed down the stretch against the Heat.  The C's just flat out faded in the 4th quarter of virtually every game because the old guys just didn't have the legs to play playoff basketball at a high rate night in and night out.  That will only get worse next year.

  The only way the Heat will be significantly better next year is if Wade or LeBron start shooting like Ray, or at least like PP. They dominate the game too much for role players to have a big impact. The old guys on the Celts don't have the legs to play every night without a healthy Rondo or a healthy center. They didn't look appreciably older last year than in 2010 when they went to the finals.

So a healthy Haslem and Miller and Bibby for a full season won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  A full season of playing together won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  You know what else I found incredibly hard to believe, that the Heat won't sign a center in the offseason.  Sure Lebron and Wade will dominate the ball, but the rest of the team will be better.

  If you want to say the Heat will be better, that's not incredibly hard to believe. But I find it incredibly hard to believe that such smallish changes will make the Heat a *much* better team. Clearly LeBron and Wade will dominate the ball, and this will marginalize the impact of upgrades to role players.

How is getting your 4th and 5th best player healthy a smallish change?  I mean look at how much different the Lakers are when Bynum plays then when Bynum doesn't play.  If Ray Allen and Jermaine O'Neal didn't play, how much worse would the Celtics be.  Haslem and Miller are excellent players for that team as they do things that the team is lacking.

  First if all, Haslem and Miller aren't anywhere near the class of Allen or Bynum and probably not as good as a somewhat healthy JO. Secondly, the Heat are much more centered around its stars then the Heat or the Lakers. When Miller and Haslem played this year they had a usage% similar to Arroyo on the Celts or Luke Walton on the Lakers.

Avery Bradley has the highest USG% on the Celtics.  I wouldn't put much stock in that particular statistic.

  Now *that's* funny. The fact that you were able to come up with an obscure outlier from someone who barely plays makes it an unreliable stat? Haha. Maybe, and this is just a guess mind you, one of the reasons Avery would have a higher usage rate is that Ray appears in 2 of his top 10 5 man groups, Paul is in one and KG isn't in any. Don't you think his usage numbers would drastically fall if he were regularly on the court with the big three?

Celtics by order of USG% in the regular season
Bradley
Pierce
Garnett
Robinson
Davis
Shaq
Green
Allen
Rondo
Krstic


USG% isn't a stat that tells you much of anything with respect to the importance of a player to a team.  It certainly could mean something, like with Pierce and KG, or it could not like with Allen and Rondo.

[StartOrien]

The general consensus seems to be that people don't believe the Celtics could've won the trophy even before Rondo's injury. If you accept that, than you have to accept this. 

If you're looking to build a contender:

Is Rondo's potential high enough that it would offset the fact that it'd be unlikely for him to have a supporting cast as good as this past year's aging team?

I don't think Rondo has peeked potential wise, but I think he's probably about 90% of the way there. And to me, that's not enough based off of what I saw this year.

[indeedproceed]

Celtics by order of USG% in the regular season
Bradley
Pierce
Garnett
Robinson
Davis
Shaq
Green
Allen
Rondo
Krstic


USG% isn't a stat that tells you much of anything with respect to the importance of a player to a team.  It certainly could mean something, like with Pierce and KG, or it could not like with Allen and Rondo.

Yeah USG is definitely a stat that requires context and role on a team to understand. USG basically looks to see how often a player commits a FGA, AST, or TO per 100 possessions. Rondo barely shoots for the amount of time he handles the ball, and while he turns the ball over fairly frequently and his assist rate is second only to steve Nash, his FGA's per 40 minutes barely even touch the top 50....among PG's who played more than 40 games last season AND played 20+minutes per game.

He barely touches the top 50 in FGA's, among rotation-level point guards. His USG should be miniscule.

[BballTim]

Celtics by order of USG% in the regular season
Bradley
Pierce
Garnett
Robinson
Davis
Shaq
Green
Allen
Rondo
Krstic


USG% isn't a stat that tells you much of anything with respect to the importance of a player to a team.  It certainly could mean something, like with Pierce and KG, or it could not like with Allen and Rondo.

  You're right, to a certain extent. The fact that the Heat role players have a low usage doesn't make them unimportant in the offense, but the reason they have small roles matters. The Heat's offense is dominated by a few individual players like no other team in the league. The fact that most of the Heat regular players have miniscule usage rates isn't really the point, it's the high usage rates for the stars.

  But I don't see why it's hard to understand that upgrades that aren't huge to players that have a very small role in an offense won't make a huge difference. It's true you're comparing those players to the 4th best players on other teams, but they really have the relative role of the 8th best players on the Celts or the Lakers.

[BballTim]

Celtics by order of USG% in the regular season
Bradley
Pierce
Garnett
Robinson
Davis
Shaq
Green
Allen
Rondo
Krstic


USG% isn't a stat that tells you much of anything with respect to the importance of a player to a team.  It certainly could mean something, like with Pierce and KG, or it could not like with Allen and Rondo.

Yeah USG is definitely a stat that requires context and role on a team to understand. USG basically looks to see how often a player commits a FGA, AST, or TO per 100 possessions. Rondo barely shoots for the amount of time he handles the ball, and while he turns the ball over fairly frequently and his assist rate is second only to steve Nash, his FGA's per 40 minutes barely even touch the top 50....among PG's who played more than 40 games last season AND played 20+minutes per game.

He barely touches the top 50 in FGA's, among rotation-level point guards. His USG should be miniscule.

  Some usage stats include assists but at a reduced rate, such as assists/3. Others don't include assists at all. It's true that context and role on a team come into play, but the role of Haslem and Bibby and Miller is basically stand around and shoot the ball on occasion when they're wide open.

[Moranis]

Celtics by order of USG% in the regular season
Bradley
Pierce
Garnett
Robinson
Davis
Shaq
Green
Allen
Rondo
Krstic


USG% isn't a stat that tells you much of anything with respect to the importance of a player to a team.  It certainly could mean something, like with Pierce and KG, or it could not like with Allen and Rondo.

Yeah USG is definitely a stat that requires context and role on a team to understand. USG basically looks to see how often a player commits a FGA, AST, or TO per 100 possessions. Rondo barely shoots for the amount of time he handles the ball, and while he turns the ball over fairly frequently and his assist rate is second only to steve Nash, his FGA's per 40 minutes barely even touch the top 50....among PG's who played more than 40 games last season AND played 20+minutes per game.

He barely touches the top 50 in FGA's, among rotation-level point guards. His USG should be miniscule.

I know what USG is, I was commenting to BBallTIm's comment that because Haslem and Miller have a small USG, that improvements from them won't greatly improve the Heat.  I just put the C's USG up there to bring that point home.  Of course USG has absolutely nothing to do with defense, rebounding, or any other manner in which a player can contribute to a teams success.  Will Haslem and Miller being healthy greatly improve the Heat's offense, no probably not (Miller will improve it moreso then Haslem), but them being healthy IMO will greatly improve the Heat overall as a team.  The Heat really lacked a guy to do the dirty work inside like Haslem, and they did lack some outside shooting and toughness on the perimeter that Miller can provide.  It also means James Jones and Joel Anthony aren't getting near the minutes, which will only help the team.  

[BballTim]

Celtics by order of USG% in the regular season
Bradley
Pierce
Garnett
Robinson
Davis
Shaq
Green
Allen
Rondo
Krstic


USG% isn't a stat that tells you much of anything with respect to the importance of a player to a team.  It certainly could mean something, like with Pierce and KG, or it could not like with Allen and Rondo.

Yeah USG is definitely a stat that requires context and role on a team to understand. USG basically looks to see how often a player commits a FGA, AST, or TO per 100 possessions. Rondo barely shoots for the amount of time he handles the ball, and while he turns the ball over fairly frequently and his assist rate is second only to steve Nash, his FGA's per 40 minutes barely even touch the top 50....among PG's who played more than 40 games last season AND played 20+minutes per game.

He barely touches the top 50 in FGA's, among rotation-level point guards. His USG should be miniscule.

  Right, so if Rondo stayed where he was with his shooting and handled the ball and ran the offense as much as Von Wafer did he'd have about the same role in the Celts offense than any of those three players for the Heat.