Some interesting notes on Rondos jumpshooting from ESPN

[BballTim]

is there such thing as a player thats not flawed?

  Being bad at 1-2 things is a major flaw, being mediocre at most things is perfectly acceptable.

[ms.ball]

Rondo is easily the most overrated point guard in the league. He is what he is people. He will never be a decent shooter in the NBA. NEVER. It's just not within the realm of possibilities. I've never seen anybody struggle as badly as him at putting the ball in the hoop past 10 feet. It's just absurd!

Last year his assist totals were inflated because he deliberately looked to get an assist every time he got the ball. He was just padding stats. I never thought I would say this but I thought he was downright selfish because he was passing the ball too much!

You can all say what you want but I'm sick of him. Flawed players like him do not make superstars nor are they players you build a team around. Right now he's not a top 5 pg in the league and I'm afraid he never will be. This team was exposed during the playoffs and next year will be even worse.

Umm is this a joke? Yeah this has to be a joke! Overrated?? 

[BASS_THUMPER]

very over rated..

he is best off the bench


start d west

[PosImpos]

Rondo is easily a top 5 PG in this league. The only other PGs in this league that I think people can say they have a better all around game than Rondo is Paul, Williams and Rose in that order.

Westbrook isn't a great defender and is way too much about his offense than anyone else's. He's not better than Rondo.

Nash is too old and plays no defense.

Kidd is too old and can't guard PGs anymore.

Parker has seen his game slowly become less and less and is injury prone.

Curry doesn't have the defensive or passing or ball handling or floor general abilities that Rondo does.

Wall is so inexperienced and his game very very raw. He is not in Rondo's league yet but could be.

Jennings, well that's just a joke.

For the record, I wasn't necessarily arguing that the players I mentioned are all better than Rondo right now.  The point is that there are a lot of very good young point guards in the league right now, and most of them have a higher ceiling than Rondo -- in my opinion. 

Unless he really changes his offensive game, I think Rondo is more or less at his ceiling, and I'm not certain how long he can remain a high impact player given his style of play (once his speed / athleticism goes, I'm not sure what will be left).

[greenpride32]

As much as I'd like to see Rondo's jumper improve, these stats are extremely skewed.  Rondo is one of the few guards in the league that is left wide open and encouraged to shoot by the other team's defense.  With that in mind 41% is actually pretty poor.

[BballTim]

Rondo is easily a top 5 PG in this league. The only other PGs in this league that I think people can say they have a better all around game than Rondo is Paul, Williams and Rose in that order.

Westbrook isn't a great defender and is way too much about his offense than anyone else's. He's not better than Rondo.

Nash is too old and plays no defense.

Kidd is too old and can't guard PGs anymore.

Parker has seen his game slowly become less and less and is injury prone.

Curry doesn't have the defensive or passing or ball handling or floor general abilities that Rondo does.

Wall is so inexperienced and his game very very raw. He is not in Rondo's league yet but could be.

Jennings, well that's just a joke.

For the record, I wasn't necessarily arguing that the players I mentioned are all better than Rondo right now.  The point is that there are a lot of very good young point guards in the league right now, and most of them have a higher ceiling than Rondo -- in my opinion. 

Unless he really changes his offensive game, I think Rondo is more or less at his ceiling, and I'm not certain how long he can remain a high impact player given his style of play (once his speed / athleticism goes, I'm not sure what will be left).

  When Rondo was healthy this year he was playing as well as any point guard in the league. I'd call that his ceiling, unless ceiling somehow means a lower level than you've demonstrated the ability to play. And aside from the fact that Rondo's probably 6-7 years from starting to lose his speed, that's not the biggest part of his game. His knowledge of the game, vision, passing ability, the way he runs an offense, all of which are exceptional, all are more important.

[paulcowens]

Our whole offense hinges on Ray Allen's cuts. Towards the end of the season, Ray was less aggressive. When the offense doesn't go, because of the lack of interior options, the offense stagnates as they wait for Rondo to create. In those cases, Rondo is the only real threat who can get to the rim in four seconds. The opposing team's defense would collapse on him and, with Rondo being so small for NBA standards, he would likely get banged up. Maybe that's why he stopped going so hard towards the end of the season.

No one wants to say it, but once Ray Ray broke the record, he wasn't quite as motivated, it appeared.

[PosImpos]

Rondo is easily a top 5 PG in this league. The only other PGs in this league that I think people can say they have a better all around game than Rondo is Paul, Williams and Rose in that order.

Westbrook isn't a great defender and is way too much about his offense than anyone else's. He's not better than Rondo.

Nash is too old and plays no defense.

Kidd is too old and can't guard PGs anymore.

Parker has seen his game slowly become less and less and is injury prone.

Curry doesn't have the defensive or passing or ball handling or floor general abilities that Rondo does.

Wall is so inexperienced and his game very very raw. He is not in Rondo's league yet but could be.

Jennings, well that's just a joke.

For the record, I wasn't necessarily arguing that the players I mentioned are all better than Rondo right now.  The point is that there are a lot of very good young point guards in the league right now, and most of them have a higher ceiling than Rondo -- in my opinion. 

Unless he really changes his offensive game, I think Rondo is more or less at his ceiling, and I'm not certain how long he can remain a high impact player given his style of play (once his speed / athleticism goes, I'm not sure what will be left).

  When Rondo was healthy this year he was playing as well as any point guard in the league. I'd call that his ceiling, unless ceiling somehow means a lower level than you've demonstrated the ability to play. And aside from the fact that Rondo's probably 6-7 years from starting to lose his speed, that's not the biggest part of his game. His knowledge of the game, vision, passing ability, the way he runs an offense, all of which are exceptional, all are more important.

Early in the season when Rondo was racking up 15 assists per game, yes, he was playing as well as any point guard in the league.


But that kind of APG average was not sustainable, even with all the weapons Rondo had available. 

Just as you keep arguing regarding Chris Paul, you have to look at the whole season as a body of work, not just select portions of it.  While Rondo has the ability to play very, very well for stretches of time, whether it's dominating a few games in a row to win a series or racking up a record number of assists to start the season, he doesn't have it in him to play at that level all of the time, or even most of the time. 

In other words, while Rondo is a very good player, he isn't a superstar.  He's not a guy who can carry your team, or even a player that you ought to build a team around.

As I have said many times, I have a great deal of respect for what Rondo can do as a player, but I think it's important to recognize what he can and cannot do, and have reasonable expectations.  Being a great two way player who can be the guy for a top team night in and night out is just not something he can do, at least as far as he's shown so far.  This puts him solidly behind players like Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and yes, even Steve Nash. 

Players like Wall, Curry, Evans, and Jennings are not yet even on Rondo's level, but because they have more all-around games they have the potential to one day pass him as well.

[paulcowens]

Rondo has steadily improved his game.  His major weaknesses right now seem to be shooting and consistency.  We can expect improvement in both areas.  To claim that he has reached his ceiling is  absurd.  The trajectory we have seen so far suggests the exact opposite. 

And even if it were true that he has reached his ceiling, we already have the best playmaking guard in the league, the best defensive guard, and arguably the most dangerous player at his position.  I would take Rondo over any point guard in the league, without hesitation, and I expect him to become much better.  This is a person who thrives on challenges, and who has a very strong will.  There's no reason to think that he has reached his ceiling yet.   

[BballTim]

Rondo is easily a top 5 PG in this league. The only other PGs in this league that I think people can say they have a better all around game than Rondo is Paul, Williams and Rose in that order.

Westbrook isn't a great defender and is way too much about his offense than anyone else's. He's not better than Rondo.

Nash is too old and plays no defense.

Kidd is too old and can't guard PGs anymore.

Parker has seen his game slowly become less and less and is injury prone.

Curry doesn't have the defensive or passing or ball handling or floor general abilities that Rondo does.

Wall is so inexperienced and his game very very raw. He is not in Rondo's league yet but could be.

Jennings, well that's just a joke.

For the record, I wasn't necessarily arguing that the players I mentioned are all better than Rondo right now.  The point is that there are a lot of very good young point guards in the league right now, and most of them have a higher ceiling than Rondo -- in my opinion. 

Unless he really changes his offensive game, I think Rondo is more or less at his ceiling, and I'm not certain how long he can remain a high impact player given his style of play (once his speed / athleticism goes, I'm not sure what will be left).

  When Rondo was healthy this year he was playing as well as any point guard in the league. I'd call that his ceiling, unless ceiling somehow means a lower level than you've demonstrated the ability to play. And aside from the fact that Rondo's probably 6-7 years from starting to lose his speed, that's not the biggest part of his game. His knowledge of the game, vision, passing ability, the way he runs an offense, all of which are exceptional, all are more important.

Early in the season when Rondo was racking up 15 assists per game, yes, he was playing as well as any point guard in the league.


But that kind of APG average was not sustainable, even with all the weapons Rondo had available. 

  The kind of APG he averaged for the first couple of weeks isn't sustainable but clearly he's capable of leading the league by a decent margin. Throw in the way he runs the offense, 1st team all-defense play and top 4 or so rebounding and he can impact a game as much as the other top guards.

Just as you keep arguing regarding Chris Paul, you have to look at the whole season as a body of work, not just select portions of it.  While Rondo has the ability to play very, very well for stretches of time, whether it's dominating a few games in a row to win a series or racking up a record number of assists to start the season, he doesn't have it in him to play at that level all of the time, or even most of the time. 

  I would say it's as much as anything else been his inability to stay healthy, although he does tend to cruise through the season the same way PP/KG?RA do.

In other words, while Rondo is a very good player, he isn't a superstar.  He's not a guy who can carry your team, or even a player that you ought to build a team around.

As I have said many times, I have a great deal of respect for what Rondo can do as a player, but I think it's important to recognize what he can and cannot do, and have reasonable expectations.  Being a great two way player who can be the guy for a top team night in and night out is just not something he can do, at least as far as he's shown so far.  This puts him solidly behind players like Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and yes, even Steve Nash. 

  Aside from the fact that it's extremely generous to call Nash a two way player, he never carried teams anywhere when he was Rondo's age. Rondo may never carry a team with his scoring (the same could be said of Nash, who did it more with his passing), it's also important to note that it's a role that he's never been asked to play.

Players like Wall, Curry, Evans, and Jennings are not yet even on Rondo's level, but because they have more all-around games they have the potential to one day pass him as well.

   A decent (or poor for some of these guys) outside shot and a good ft% does not an all-around game make. I don't see Jennings ever having a great all-around game, Curry has a chance, same with Wall. Evans isn't even a pg.

[bfrombleacher]

Our whole offense hinges on Ray Allen's cuts. Towards the end of the season, Ray was less aggressive. When the offense doesn't go, because of the lack of interior options, the offense stagnates as they wait for Rondo to create. In those cases, Rondo is the only real threat who can get to the rim in four seconds. The opposing team's defense would collapse on him and, with Rondo being so small for NBA standards, he would likely get banged up. Maybe that's why he stopped going so hard towards the end of the season.

No one wants to say it, but once Ray Ray broke the record, he wasn't quite as motivated, it appeared.

Really? I thought it's more to do with his age than anything. He was inconsistent last year as well.

Either way, Rondo needs a jumpshot and the team needs young, reliable scoring options.

[cman88]

As much as I'd like to see Rondo's jumper improve, these stats are extremely skewed.  Rondo is one of the few guards in the league that is left wide open and encouraged to shoot by the other team's defense.  With that in mind 41% is actually pretty poor.

well, in 09-10 he was left open and shot 33%, in 2010-11 he shot 41% thats an improvement..he gets that to 45-47% by next year and is comfortable with it, guards will have to contest him...he needs to get comfortable with that shot and he will make them.

and lets be honest, its not like Pierce/KG/RA are have defenders draped ALL over them when they shoot either...ALOT of their shots this year were wide open as well...you find the open man to take the shot...ALOT of KG's long 2's were wide open.

and to posimpos. Im not sure how you can say that Rondo has "reached his ceiling" when theres no evidence that he has stopped improving. stats/evidence would suggest that he's been improving in all areas each year since he entered the league. last year his PPG went down. but IMO thats mainly due to the fact he had his worst injury year. considering Rondo is an anomaly anyways as a player(usually you dont find top5 point guards at #24) theres no telling what his ceiling will be

[PosImpos]

As much as I'd like to see Rondo's jumper improve, these stats are extremely skewed.  Rondo is one of the few guards in the league that is left wide open and encouraged to shoot by the other team's defense.  With that in mind 41% is actually pretty poor.

well, in 09-10 he was left open and shot 33%, in 2010-11 he shot 41% thats an improvement..he gets that to 45-47% by next year and is comfortable with it, guards will have to contest him...he needs to get comfortable with that shot and he will make them.

and lets be honest, its not like Pierce/KG/RA are have defenders draped ALL over them when they shoot either...ALOT of their shots this year were wide open as well...you find the open man to take the shot...ALOT of KG's long 2's were wide open.

and to posimpos. Im not sure how you can say that Rondo has "reached his ceiling" when theres no evidence that he has stopped improving. stats/evidence would suggest that he's been improving in all areas each year since he entered the league. last year his PPG went down. but IMO thats mainly due to the fact he had his worst injury year. considering Rondo is an anomaly anyways as a player(usually you dont find top5 point guards at #24) theres no telling what his ceiling will be

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/hollinger/_/id/3026/rajon-rondo

check out the year-by-year stats here for me.  i'm not really seeing the evidence for this great year to year improvement that you're talking about.

i think it's fair to say that between the '08 season and the '09 playoffs, Rondo made a large leap, and steadily refined his new role as leader of the offense until his (thus far) defining 'moment' in the 2nd round of the '10 playoffs against the Cavs.  he had some very good games this past season, but overall it's difficult to say that there was any great improvement evident -- even when he was healthy (which, admittedly, he wasn't often).  it's not as though Rondo has improved by leaps and bounds every season. 

in any case, he'll be 26 in February, and he's already played in this league for 5 seasons.  i think it's reasonable to hope that he will steadily improve his shooting, as many guards do, as he ages.  other than that, i think you're expecting too much if you think Rondo will suddenly take it to another level on a consistent basis.

[Chris]

For all the hand-wringing about Rondo's jumper, it's worth pointing out that he shot 41 percent from 16-to-23 feet this past season (up 8 percent from the previous year, and he attempted a career-high 3.3 attempts per game from that range). Yes, Rondo graded out as merely "average" among jump shooters, according to Synergy Sports. He was 100-of-260 shooting (38.5 percent) on all half-court jump shots last season. But zoom in closer and he graded out as "good" from 17 feet to the 3-point line, connecting on 67-of-162 attempts (41.4 percent). Dial it back to the 2009-10 season and Rondo was 91-of-272 (33.5 percent) on all jumpers, while connecting on just 48-of-134 shots from 17 feet to the 3-point line (35.8 percent) showing some decent improvement last year.

so, he is improving on his jumpshot slowly but surely. and I think he will continue to improve next year. and as he gets more comfortable with making that shot, he will have to be contested, and will make it while being so

I haven't read the whole thread yet, so this was probably already pointed out, but I think it is very tough to judge Rondo's jumpshooting against other NBA players.  It is fine to say he is improving (which is undeniable), however, it is very tough to say he is "average among jumpshooters", just because he is taking most of those shots with significantly less pressure than the rest of the NBA. 

He is generally left wide open on purpose, because they know that he is much more dangerous if he doesn't shoot it than if he does.  So, while the majority of NBA players (or at least perimeter players) are taking those shots with guys running at them, Rondo is taking a huge amount of them without any pressure at all, which obviously makes it a much easier shot. 

Where this is important is that if he continues to improve, he will hit a tipping point, where teams will have to cover him, and that is when we will see how he really stacks up against other NBA shooters. 

Don't get me wrong, I think Rondo is clearly making progress, and he is learning to work with what he has...I just think its a bit disingenuous to say he is now an average NBA shooter.

[BballTim]

As much as I'd like to see Rondo's jumper improve, these stats are extremely skewed.  Rondo is one of the few guards in the league that is left wide open and encouraged to shoot by the other team's defense.  With that in mind 41% is actually pretty poor.

well, in 09-10 he was left open and shot 33%, in 2010-11 he shot 41% thats an improvement..he gets that to 45-47% by next year and is comfortable with it, guards will have to contest him...he needs to get comfortable with that shot and he will make them.

and lets be honest, its not like Pierce/KG/RA are have defenders draped ALL over them when they shoot either...ALOT of their shots this year were wide open as well...you find the open man to take the shot...ALOT of KG's long 2's were wide open.

and to posimpos. Im not sure how you can say that Rondo has "reached his ceiling" when theres no evidence that he has stopped improving. stats/evidence would suggest that he's been improving in all areas each year since he entered the league. last year his PPG went down. but IMO thats mainly due to the fact he had his worst injury year. considering Rondo is an anomaly anyways as a player(usually you dont find top5 point guards at #24) theres no telling what his ceiling will be

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/hollinger/_/id/3026/rajon-rondo

check out the year-by-year stats here for me.  i'm not really seeing the evidence for this great year to year improvement that you're talking about.

  I would say that Rondo was considerably improved this year, to the point that he was pretty high in most of the lists people put out for potential MVP candidates. His passing was clearly better, which showed in the fact that he was leading the league by a decent margin before his late season slump. Also his defense was terrific when he was healthy, to the point that his defense was below par for a month+ late in the season and he was still comfortably 1st team all-defense.

  His biggest improvement was how well he ran the offense. First of all there were the gaudy assist totals and the easy shots that came from them. But additionally he was doing a great job of directing the players and creating mismatches, and he was getting a lot of hockey assists where he'd swing the ball over to someone who would make the entry pass for that mismatch. This doesn't show up directly on the stat sheet, but before the all-star break our team fg% was .493, when the team that finished 2nd in the league this year was .481, which would be closer to 7th place than the numbers we were putting up.

in any case, he'll be 26 in February, and he's already played in this league for 5 seasons.  i think it's reasonable to hope that he will steadily improve his shooting, as many guards do, as he ages.  other than that, i think you're expecting too much if you think Rondo will suddenly take it to another level on a consistent basis.

  Just looking at the players on the "Player" index page on basketballreference, point guards that took it to another level at Rondo's age or older include Billups, Kidd, Payton, Stockton, Nash, Ainge and Cassell. I didn't check them all, but it must run close to half.