Do you agree the players are the product?

[Chris]

I suppose it depends on how you define "product".

But I know this: It'd be a heck of a lot easier to create a league with players and no (separate) owners than one with owners and no players.

I don't think this is necessarily true.  I think it would be much easier for the league to find replacement players and be successful than it would be for the players to start a new league on their own.

I mean players and owners in general, not necessarily the players and owners we have right now.  Players are more important than owners, although they're obviously all better off together.

I still disagree.  You need a heck of a lot of money and resources to start a new league.  The fact that the NBA has all of its funding, and buildings, and fanbases set up gives them a leg up, even if they didn't have the best players in the world.

[fairweatherfan]

I suppose it depends on how you define "product".

But I know this: It'd be a heck of a lot easier to create a league with players and no (separate) owners than one with owners and no players.

I don't think this is necessarily true.  I think it would be much easier for the league to find replacement players and be successful than it would be for the players to start a new league on their own.

I mean players and owners in general, not necessarily the players and owners we have right now.  Players are more important than owners, although they're obviously all better off together.

I still disagree.  You need a heck of a lot of money and resources to start a new league.  The fact that the NBA has all of its funding, and buildings, and fanbases set up gives them a leg up, even if they didn't have the best players in the world.

Yes, but I'm describing a situation with NO players, not different players.  All the resources in the world don't mean a thing if there's no one playing basketball.

It's a thought exercise anyway, but Players/No Owners is possible albeit unlikely; Owners/No Players is not.

[wdleehi]

They need each other.


The owners need the players to sell their product.


The players need the owners resources (teams, equipment, arenas, marketing, built in fan base and media contacts)

[Chris]

I suppose it depends on how you define "product".

But I know this: It'd be a heck of a lot easier to create a league with players and no (separate) owners than one with owners and no players.

I don't think this is necessarily true.  I think it would be much easier for the league to find replacement players and be successful than it would be for the players to start a new league on their own.

I mean players and owners in general, not necessarily the players and owners we have right now.  Players are more important than owners, although they're obviously all better off together.

I still disagree.  You need a heck of a lot of money and resources to start a new league.  The fact that the NBA has all of its funding, and buildings, and fanbases set up gives them a leg up, even if they didn't have the best players in the world.

Yes, but I'm describing a situation with NO players, not different players.  All the resources in the world don't mean a thing if there's no one playing basketball.

It's a thought exercise anyway, but Players/No Owners is possible albeit unlikely; Owners/No Players is not.

Players/No owners is just as impossible as Owners/no players, unless you are talking about a pickup game in a public gym. 

For a league to function you need owners just as much as you need players.

[mgent]

The product is the game of basketball.

I think someone might have already said this but that's not true, if it was the owners could hire scabs and continue playing.  Our league has the best players on the planet, including some of the world's top athletes, it always has.  That's what the NBA is.

That's what people want to see, not Europeans or college players doing the same thing.  Without these players you've got absolutely nothing.

[Chris]

The product is the game of basketball.

I think someone might have already said this but that's not true, if it was the owners could hire scabs and continue playing.  Our league has the best players on the planet, including some of the world's top athletes, it always has.  That's what the NBA is.

That's what people want to see, not Europeans or college players doing the same thing.  Without these players you've got absolutely nothing.

Well, the owners can't hire scabs because the players aren't striking.  It is a lockout, because the owners are trying to "fix" their business before resuming. 

And I do think a large portion of the fanbase would return, even if the biggest stars do decide to go off to Europe or something else.

[Donoghus]

The product is the game of basketball.

I think someone might have already said this but that's not true, if it was the owners could hire scabs and continue playing.  Our league has the best players on the planet, including some of the world's top athletes, it always has.  That's what the NBA is.

That's what people want to see, not Europeans or college players doing the same thing.  Without these players you've got absolutely nothing.

The players are playing the sport of basketball.  Without basketball, there is absolutely nothing there. 

It might be semantics or subjective but these guys excel at the sport of basketball. 

The names and faces change but year after year the fans come.
The names are often the draw but its their performance at basketball is what established them as names in the first place. 

Portland sold out for how many years in a row while the names and faces changed?  Fans will still come out.

Like I said, maybe its semantics here but that's how I see it. 

[indeedproceed]

The product is the game of basketball.

I think someone might have already said this but that's not true, if it was the owners could hire scabs and continue playing.  Our league has the best players on the planet, including some of the world's top athletes, it always has.  That's what the NBA is.

That's what people want to see, not Europeans or college players doing the same thing.  Without these players you've got absolutely nothing.

The players are playing the sport of basketball.  Without basketball, there is absolutely nothing there. 

It might be semantics or subjective but these guys excel at the sport of basketball. 

The names and faces change but year after year the fans come.
The names are often the draw but its their performance at basketball is what established them as names in the first place. 

Portland sold out for how many years in a row while the names and faces changed?  Fans will still come out.

Like I said, maybe its semantics here but that's how I see it. 

See this is where you're wrong though, because if the product was the sport of basketball, the NBA would not be unique. There are lots of other semi-pro leagues in the US, and even other pro leagues around the world.

But none of them compare to the level of talent the NBA possesses, and that's what people come out to see, so the product is the players.

[Donoghus]

The product is the game of basketball.

I think someone might have already said this but that's not true, if it was the owners could hire scabs and continue playing.  Our league has the best players on the planet, including some of the world's top athletes, it always has.  That's what the NBA is.

That's what people want to see, not Europeans or college players doing the same thing.  Without these players you've got absolutely nothing.

The players are playing the sport of basketball.  Without basketball, there is absolutely nothing there. 

It might be semantics or subjective but these guys excel at the sport of basketball. 

The names and faces change but year after year the fans come.
The names are often the draw but its their performance at basketball is what established them as names in the first place. 

Portland sold out for how many years in a row while the names and faces changed?  Fans will still come out.

Like I said, maybe its semantics here but that's how I see it. 

See this is where you're wrong though, because if the product was the sport of basketball, the NBA would not be unique. There are lots of other semi-pro leagues in the US, and even other pro leagues around the world.

But none of them compare to the level of talent the NBA possesses, and that's what people come out to see, so the product is the players.

That's a valid point but what are these players playing?  What are people watching them perform? An exceptionally high level of basketball.  That's the product.

To me, the fact that people come out year after year to these games while the names and faces change means its more than just the players.  People still go to Bulls games (even during the early 00s) over a decade after Jordan left.

[Chris]

The product is the game of basketball.

I think someone might have already said this but that's not true, if it was the owners could hire scabs and continue playing.  Our league has the best players on the planet, including some of the world's top athletes, it always has.  That's what the NBA is.

That's what people want to see, not Europeans or college players doing the same thing.  Without these players you've got absolutely nothing.

The players are playing the sport of basketball.  Without basketball, there is absolutely nothing there. 

It might be semantics or subjective but these guys excel at the sport of basketball. 

The names and faces change but year after year the fans come.
The names are often the draw but its their performance at basketball is what established them as names in the first place. 

Portland sold out for how many years in a row while the names and faces changed?  Fans will still come out.

Like I said, maybe its semantics here but that's how I see it. 

See this is where you're wrong though, because if the product was the sport of basketball, the NBA would not be unique. There are lots of other semi-pro leagues in the US, and even other pro leagues around the world.

But none of them compare to the level of talent the NBA possesses, and that's what people come out to see, so the product is the players.

That's fine, and I guess this is where this becomes a circular and kind of pointless argument.

Sure, if the players were replaced with semi-pro players, the league would suffer.  But that would never happen, because the league still has the structure and assets to pay more than any other league in the world (on average anyways).  So, even if a few of the top players don't come back, there is no way all of the players would refuse to return, because otherwise, they would just be either out of the job, or making significantly less money.

To me, the bottom line is that the product is NBA basketball.  A huge part of it are the individual players.  However, another huge part of it is the rest of the league.  The arenas are part of the product.  The consessions are part of the product.  The teams and history is part of the product

I don't pay to see basketball players, I pay to see basketball players play NBA basketball, and more importantly to play for the Celtics. 

[indeedproceed]

The product is the game of basketball.

I think someone might have already said this but that's not true, if it was the owners could hire scabs and continue playing.  Our league has the best players on the planet, including some of the world's top athletes, it always has.  That's what the NBA is.

That's what people want to see, not Europeans or college players doing the same thing.  Without these players you've got absolutely nothing.

The players are playing the sport of basketball.  Without basketball, there is absolutely nothing there. 

It might be semantics or subjective but these guys excel at the sport of basketball. 

The names and faces change but year after year the fans come.
The names are often the draw but its their performance at basketball is what established them as names in the first place. 

Portland sold out for how many years in a row while the names and faces changed?  Fans will still come out.

Like I said, maybe its semantics here but that's how I see it. 

See this is where you're wrong though, because if the product was the sport of basketball, the NBA would not be unique. There are lots of other semi-pro leagues in the US, and even other pro leagues around the world.

But none of them compare to the level of talent the NBA possesses, and that's what people come out to see, so the product is the players.

That's a valid point but what are these players playing?  What are people watching them perform? An exceptionally high level of basketball.  That's the product.

To me, the fact that people come out year after year to these games while the names and faces change means its more than just the players.  People still go to Bulls games (even during the early 00s) over a decade after Jordan left.

Its like with Broadway though (no, seriously, follow me here).

There are thousands of off-broadway plays that cover the country, and they all sell a product (a play) that is likely on broadway, or was at some point.

But everyone knows the best actors and the best productions are by and large on Broadway. The NBA is the broadway of professional basketball, and with inferior players all you have is a play that should be running in Pooghkipsee NY, running under really expensive lights and seats.

I think Chris was on to something here:

To me, the bottom line is that the product is NBA basketball.  A huge part of it are the individual players.  However, another huge part of it is the rest of the league.  The arenas are part of the product.  The consessions are part of the product.  The teams and history is part of the product

I think that's a lot more accurate than either of our statements.

[mgent]

The product is the game of basketball.

I think someone might have already said this but that's not true, if it was the owners could hire scabs and continue playing.  Our league has the best players on the planet, including some of the world's top athletes, it always has.  That's what the NBA is.

That's what people want to see, not Europeans or college players doing the same thing.  Without these players you've got absolutely nothing.

The players are playing the sport of basketball.  Without basketball, there is absolutely nothing there.  

It might be semantics or subjective but these guys excel at the sport of basketball.  

The names and faces change but year after year the fans come.
The names are often the draw but its their performance at basketball is what established them as names in the first place.  

Portland sold out for how many years in a row while the names and faces changed?  Fans will still come out.

Like I said, maybe its semantics here but that's how I see it.  

See this is where you're wrong though, because if the product was the sport of basketball, the NBA would not be unique. There are lots of other semi-pro leagues in the US, and even other pro leagues around the world.

But none of them compare to the level of talent the NBA possesses, and that's what people come out to see, so the product is the players.

That's a valid point but what are these players playing?  What are people watching them perform? An exceptionally high level of basketball.  That's the product.

To me, the fact that people come out year after year to these games while the names and faces change means its more than just the players.  People still go to Bulls games (even during the early 00s) over a decade after Jordan left.

Yes, the names and faces change, but that's still what people are tuning in for.  Just because they're new names and faces doesn't mean they aren't still the draw.  It's even easier for people to follow different players in basketball because they don't wear helmets.  Shaq is probably the most recognizable athlete in the world.  It's that recognition of the players that keeps people tuning in.

If it was the sport then you'd see more people following college, Euroleague, WNBA, FIBA, HS, etc.  Yes, you have the people that turn on an NBA game just because they're a fan of the game (me) and those people will watch any league regardless of the players.  But the majority of the people that watch the NBA exclusively, do so because [Dwight Howard] is their favorite player and they like to watch him dunk on people.

Obviously you're right, without basketball you've got 10 guys standing on hardwood, but it's the same the other way around.  Without the players all you've got is a ball and two circles.  Also, without basketball, you've gotta figure that guys like LeBron, Iguodala, Josh Smith all grew up playing football and people would still be following those same names/faces in a different league.

Bottom-line is that entertainment is what people are looking for, and the players are the entertainers.  If you go to a Blink 182 concert, aren't they the product?  You're not paying to go listen to music, you're paying to watch them perform.  Why do you think Bird and Magic saved the league when they started playing?  Did people just suddenly discover basketball, or did the product improve and thus more people were attracted to it?

[mgent]

Also, I hate to single them out, but what about chicks?  I once read a post on here from a guy that lives in Cleveland who heard a girl at work say "LeBron's not playing tonight, I'm not even going to bother watching the game."  For some reason, these types of fans make up a decent amount of sales.

How many women do you see at games, wearing Paul Pierce jerseys, cheering when he scores?  How many of them do you think know what a clear path or 8 second violation is?

[PosImpos]

the teams are the product.  this includes the players, but half of what brings out many of the fans, whether die-hard or casual, is the connection that they have to the teams.  players come and go, but the teams (for the most part) stay, and that's what keeps fans coming back even when their favorite players have retired.


without the teams, we'd just have a bunch of tall athletic guys playing pick up games on TV.  that would be entertaining, but it wouldn't be anything close to the real NBA that we love.

[wdleehi]

Also, I hate to single them out, but what about chicks?  I once read a post on here from a guy that lives in Cleveland who heard a girl at work say "LeBron's not playing tonight, I'm not even going to bother watching the game."  For some reason, these types of fans make up a decent amount of sales.

How many women do you see at games, wearing Paul Pierce jerseys, cheering when he scores?  How many of them do you think know what a clear path or 8 second violation is?

You can say this about a lot of the male fans as well.