I hate to admit it but getting Howard means trading Rondo for Chris Paul

[CelticG1]

90% intangibles?


No I'd say it's more like 90% talent.

[BballTim]

90% intangibles?


No I'd say it's more like 90% talent.

  Meaning the intangibles a player brings is unrelated to their talent level?

[nickagneta]

Is everyone forgetting that Chris Paul played on the USA gold medal winning basketball team? That he led that team in assists? A team over flowing with stars who shot 55% from the floor as a team? A team of players known for having to have the ball in their hands like Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade?

It seems to me that if Rondo can efficiently run this offense with the players on this team then Chris Paul's experience in the Olympics, getting the ball to star players so they can most efficiently score, qualifies him as being able to do the job of running the Celtics offense as well as Rondo.

[BballTim]

Is everyone forgetting that Chris Paul played on the USA gold medal winning basketball team? That he led that team in assists? A team over flowing with stars who shot 55% from the floor as a team? A team of players known for having to have the ball in their hands like Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade?

It seems to me that if Rondo can efficiently run this offense with the players on this team then Chris Paul's experience in the Olympics, getting the ball to star players so they can most efficiently score, qualifies him as being able to do the job of running the Celtics offense as well as Rondo.

  Every time I see a Team USA game my first thought is "the Celts could beat the snot out of that team". Last year they won a gold having an offense that largely consisted of getting the ball to Durant. Also, if you've got a team with Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade, you're going to get a ton of transition baskets. Take those baskets out and that FG% is less impressive, considering the level of talent on that team and the level of defense they faced.

[LilRip]

in argument 1, extreme Rondo-backers will always use the argument "the whole game isn't measured in statistics" and all that, because they need to refute that CP3 has better stats. They will cite intangibles such as "grit" or "heart", as if CP3 had none of that. They will reason that Rondo has to share the ball more and doesn't have to carry as much of the offense, which is why he's not getting the same stats. They will say that Rondo knows how to run an offense and will gladly give up stats for the betterment of the team, insinuating that CP3 actually doesn't know how to run a proper offense nor will he give up stats for the betterment of the team.

  The thing is, this isn't just an argument, many people think it's the reality of the situation. Consider Rondo in 2009-2010, his first year as an all-star. He was easily among the best in the league at passing and running an offense. This year he was significantly better in both categories and it showed in how smoothly the offense was running when he was healthy. Many "extreme Rondo-backers" understand this and realize that it affects the game whether there are stats that measure it directly or not.

  Most of the people here with low(ish) opinions of Rondo can easily refute this argument (like you did) by saying that CP3 (or almost any other decent pg) can also pass the ball well and run an offense. While this is true, it ignores the fact that how well you do them impacts an offense. Intangibles exist, and they don't exist equally in all players. Many people here are very confident most people would say CP3  is a better player than Rondo. This is likely true. I'm equally confident that Rondo would be at or near the top of the list when most people were asked which nba player brings the most intangibles to a game.

intangibles do matter. I'm not refuting that. And while it's debatable who "runs a better offense" or "who passes better" or whatever, perhaps the more important question is, would the difference between them even be material? imo, they are practically equal in terms of playmaking, creativity, feistiness and selflessness.

there's more to an offense than "Rondo being brilliant". it's also about the coach's schemes and also having the proper personnel knowing what to do and having the ability to carry it out. i would wager that Pierce, Allen, and KG are among the most intelligent players in the league (and the most talented as well), up there with the Kobe's, Gasol's, Lebron's, etc. etc. Guys who just have a great knack of playing the game. Add Shaq into that list as well (though his abilities have diminished).

and i dunno if it's been said enough, but our offense works so hard to get these looks. i don't know if there's a team that works harder than us, honestly. thankfully, these are usually brilliant looks executed by brilliant players. we are the anti-Heat.

however, when Rondo's vastly superior teammates are brought up, "extreme Rondo backers" are quick to bring up his individual stellar playoff performances or how well Rondo has carried the team, or even how the Hornets' personnel is pretty close to the C's (yes, i've been told this by someone here on CB, i just forget who, but i bet the moment someone makes a thread saying "let's trade Ariza and Bellinelli for Pierce and Allen", they would get laughed off the board by likely the same people.) for me, this is unfair. they criticize CP3 for his individual efforts, but praise Rondo for it. They disregard CP3's stats and praise Rondo's lack of stats purely based on the good ol' eye test. They talk about Rondo's amazing growth and progress, as a player and as a person, when it's highly likely that they haven't watched and followed CP3 and the Hornets as closely as they watched Rondo and the C's. maybe at most they 4-8 Hornets games a year for CP3 plus whatever garbage ESPN spits out about MVP talks or whatever vs. watching every Celtics game in the playoffs and season plus Rondo's progress in the offseason and practices from almost every credible Celtics source out there. 

it's lose-lose

[BballTim]

in argument 1, extreme Rondo-backers will always use the argument "the whole game isn't measured in statistics" and all that, because they need to refute that CP3 has better stats. They will cite intangibles such as "grit" or "heart", as if CP3 had none of that. They will reason that Rondo has to share the ball more and doesn't have to carry as much of the offense, which is why he's not getting the same stats. They will say that Rondo knows how to run an offense and will gladly give up stats for the betterment of the team, insinuating that CP3 actually doesn't know how to run a proper offense nor will he give up stats for the betterment of the team.

  The thing is, this isn't just an argument, many people think it's the reality of the situation. Consider Rondo in 2009-2010, his first year as an all-star. He was easily among the best in the league at passing and running an offense. This year he was significantly better in both categories and it showed in how smoothly the offense was running when he was healthy. Many "extreme Rondo-backers" understand this and realize that it affects the game whether there are stats that measure it directly or not.

  Most of the people here with low(ish) opinions of Rondo can easily refute this argument (like you did) by saying that CP3 (or almost any other decent pg) can also pass the ball well and run an offense. While this is true, it ignores the fact that how well you do them impacts an offense. Intangibles exist, and they don't exist equally in all players. Many people here are very confident most people would say CP3  is a better player than Rondo. This is likely true. I'm equally confident that Rondo would be at or near the top of the list when most people were asked which nba player brings the most intangibles to a game.

intangibles do matter. I'm not refuting that. And while it's debatable who "runs a better offense" or "who passes better" or whatever, perhaps the more important question is, would the difference between them even be material? imo, they are practically equal in terms of playmaking, creativity, feistiness and selflessness.

  Opinions vary. I'm not sold that CP3 would be a top 5 pg if he shot like Rondo from the line and the field but I'd also say that, if you ignore shooting, he has the 2nd best all-around game of all the pgs.

there's more to an offense than "Rondo being brilliant". it's also about the coach's schemes and also having the proper personnel knowing what to do and having the ability to carry it out. i would wager that Pierce, Allen, and KG are among the most intelligent players in the league (and the most talented as well), up there with the Kobe's, Gasol's, Lebron's, etc. etc. Guys who just have a great knack of playing the game. Add Shaq into that list as well (though his abilities have diminished).

  It's true that there's more to the offense than Rondo, it's also true that the offense is significantly worse when Rondo's not in the game. Paul and Ray and KG and Shaq (among others) all had the most or nearly most efficient scoring seasons of their careers last year. Rondo's a big part of that. He's better at spotting open players and hitting them with the right pass at the right time than anyone else in the league.

however, when Rondo's vastly superior teammates are brought up, "extreme Rondo backers" are quick to bring up his individual stellar playoff performances or how well Rondo has carried the team, or even how the Hornets' personnel is pretty close to the C's (yes, i've been told this by someone here on CB, i just forget who, but i bet the moment someone makes a thread saying "let's trade Ariza and Bellinelli for Pierce and Allen", they would get laughed off the board by likely the same people.) for me, this is unfair. they criticize CP3 for his individual efforts, but praise Rondo for it. They disregard CP3's stats and praise Rondo's lack of stats purely based on the good ol' eye test.

  You're doing a fairly poor job of condensing other people's arguments. You're also missing the one about how Rondo's superior teammates limit his overall production. Put him on a team like NO and he'll be a bigger part of the offense  and control the ball more. Clearly we've seen that he's fully capable of scoring more than he does, but his lack of scoring is the biggest knock against him.

  They talk about Rondo's amazing growth and progress, as a player and as a person, when it's highly likely that they haven't watched and followed CP3 and the Hornets as closely as they watched Rondo and the C's. maybe at most they 4-8 Hornets games a year for CP3 plus whatever garbage ESPN spits out about MVP talks or whatever vs. watching every Celtics game in the playoffs and season plus Rondo's progress in the offseason and practices from almost every credible Celtics source out there. 

  You're pretty much right about this. I watch some non-Celts games but I don't watch nearly as many games of CP3 or Rose or Williams or Westbrook or anyone else as I do of Rondo. I watch most of the Celts games and at least 3-4 times a week I'll see Rondo make a play that I won't see from any other guard all year, and I base my opinions on that. But I also think that a lot of people who see Rondo play all the time just assume that other players can do what he does. I don't think that's the case.


 

[Celtics18]

in argument 1, extreme Rondo-backers will always use the argument "the whole game isn't measured in statistics" and all that, because they need to refute that CP3 has better stats. They will cite intangibles such as "grit" or "heart", as if CP3 had none of that. They will reason that Rondo has to share the ball more and doesn't have to carry as much of the offense, which is why he's not getting the same stats. They will say that Rondo knows how to run an offense and will gladly give up stats for the betterment of the team, insinuating that CP3 actually doesn't know how to run a proper offense nor will he give up stats for the betterment of the team.

  The thing is, this isn't just an argument, many people think it's the reality of the situation. Consider Rondo in 2009-2010, his first year as an all-star. He was easily among the best in the league at passing and running an offense. This year he was significantly better in both categories and it showed in how smoothly the offense was running when he was healthy. Many "extreme Rondo-backers" understand this and realize that it affects the game whether there are stats that measure it directly or not.

  Most of the people here with low(ish) opinions of Rondo can easily refute this argument (like you did) by saying that CP3 (or almost any other decent pg) can also pass the ball well and run an offense. While this is true, it ignores the fact that how well you do them impacts an offense. Intangibles exist, and they don't exist equally in all players. Many people here are very confident most people would say CP3  is a better player than Rondo. This is likely true. I'm equally confident that Rondo would be at or near the top of the list when most people were asked which nba player brings the most intangibles to a game.

intangibles do matter. I'm not refuting that. And while it's debatable who "runs a better offense" or "who passes better" or whatever, perhaps the more important question is, would the difference between them even be material? imo, they are practically equal in terms of playmaking, creativity, feistiness and selflessness.

there's more to an offense than "Rondo being brilliant". it's also about the coach's schemes and also having the proper personnel knowing what to do and having the ability to carry it out. i would wager that Pierce, Allen, and KG are among the most intelligent players in the league (and the most talented as well), up there with the Kobe's, Gasol's, Lebron's, etc. etc. Guys who just have a great knack of playing the game. Add Shaq into that list as well (though his abilities have diminished).

and i dunno if it's been said enough, but our offense works so hard to get these looks. i don't know if there's a team that works harder than us, honestly. thankfully, these are usually brilliant looks executed by brilliant players. we are the anti-Heat.

however, when Rondo's vastly superior teammates are brought up, "extreme Rondo backers" are quick to bring up his individual stellar playoff performances or how well Rondo has carried the team, or even how the Hornets' personnel is pretty close to the C's (yes, i've been told this by someone here on CB, i just forget who, but i bet the moment someone makes a thread saying "let's trade Ariza and Bellinelli for Pierce and Allen", they would get laughed off the board by likely the same people.) for me, this is unfair. they criticize CP3 for his individual efforts, but praise Rondo for it. They disregard CP3's stats and praise Rondo's lack of stats purely based on the good ol' eye test. They talk about Rondo's amazing growth and progress, as a player and as a person, when it's highly likely that they haven't watched and followed CP3 and the Hornets as closely as they watched Rondo and the C's. maybe at most they 4-8 Hornets games a year for CP3 plus whatever garbage ESPN spits out about MVP talks or whatever vs. watching every Celtics game in the playoffs and season plus Rondo's progress in the offseason and practices from almost every credible Celtics source out there. 

it's lose-lose

I don't doubt that playing with the likes of Pierce, Garnett, and Allen have contributed to making Rondo a better basketball player.  I see that as a plus for him.  I think his time alongside those guys will serve him well throughout his career.  He's learned some of the lessons about being a winner, a team player and a professional that a lot of players take much longer to learn or never learn.

A common argument seems to be that playing alongside the big three counts as a mark against Rondo.  Do we think that everything that Rondo has learned about how to be the quarterback of a championship team will just disappear once the big three eventually fade off into the sunset?

I don't think so.  I think he's absolutely lucky to have started his NBA career in the environment he's been in, and it will be a part of what makes him one of the best floor leaders in the game for the duration of his playing career.    

[boscel33]

i've been a big supporter of rondo since day 1!  that said, if I can make a trade and wind up with paul, then howard as a free agent, sign me up....

[Tai]

Is everyone forgetting that Chris Paul played on the USA gold medal winning basketball team? That he led that team in assists? A team over flowing with stars who shot 55% from the floor as a team? A team of players known for having to have the ball in their hands like Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade?

It seems to me that if Rondo can efficiently run this offense with the players on this team then Chris Paul's experience in the Olympics, getting the ball to star players so they can most efficiently score, qualifies him as being able to do the job of running the Celtics offense as well as Rondo.

  Every time I see a Team USA game my first thought is "the Celts could beat the snot out of that team". Last year they won a gold having an offense that largely consisted of getting the ball to Durant. Also, if you've got a team with Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade, you're going to get a ton of transition baskets. Take those baskets out and that FG% is less impressive, considering the level of talent on that team and the level of defense they faced.

This is too much of a stretch; no doubt you're just downplaying all of CP3's accomplishments while exaggerating Rondo's at this point.

[BballTim]

Is everyone forgetting that Chris Paul played on the USA gold medal winning basketball team? That he led that team in assists? A team over flowing with stars who shot 55% from the floor as a team? A team of players known for having to have the ball in their hands like Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade?

It seems to me that if Rondo can efficiently run this offense with the players on this team then Chris Paul's experience in the Olympics, getting the ball to star players so they can most efficiently score, qualifies him as being able to do the job of running the Celtics offense as well as Rondo.

  Every time I see a Team USA game my first thought is "the Celts could beat the snot out of that team". Last year they won a gold having an offense that largely consisted of getting the ball to Durant. Also, if you've got a team with Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade, you're going to get a ton of transition baskets. Take those baskets out and that FG% is less impressive, considering the level of talent on that team and the level of defense they faced.

This is too much of a stretch; no doubt you're just downplaying all of CP3's accomplishments while exaggerating Rondo's at this point.

  Too much of a stretch how? I don't see how anybody can watch Team USA and be truly impressed by their half court offense. A healthy Celts starting five would easily dispatch them.

[RAcker]

Is everyone forgetting that Chris Paul played on the USA gold medal winning basketball team? That he led that team in assists? A team over flowing with stars who shot 55% from the floor as a team? A team of players known for having to have the ball in their hands like Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade?

It seems to me that if Rondo can efficiently run this offense with the players on this team then Chris Paul's experience in the Olympics, getting the ball to star players so they can most efficiently score, qualifies him as being able to do the job of running the Celtics offense as well as Rondo.

I agree with this completely.  There is nothing to indicate to me that Chris Paul couldn't step right in with this current Celtics' core and make an immediate impact similar to Rondo's with improved shooting as a bonus.  This is of course assuming that all things are equal in terms of their respective health.

[Tai]

Is everyone forgetting that Chris Paul played on the USA gold medal winning basketball team? That he led that team in assists? A team over flowing with stars who shot 55% from the floor as a team? A team of players known for having to have the ball in their hands like Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade?

It seems to me that if Rondo can efficiently run this offense with the players on this team then Chris Paul's experience in the Olympics, getting the ball to star players so they can most efficiently score, qualifies him as being able to do the job of running the Celtics offense as well as Rondo.

  Every time I see a Team USA game my first thought is "the Celts could beat the snot out of that team". Last year they won a gold having an offense that largely consisted of getting the ball to Durant. Also, if you've got a team with Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade, you're going to get a ton of transition baskets. Take those baskets out and that FG% is less impressive, considering the level of talent on that team and the level of defense they faced.

This is too much of a stretch; no doubt you're just downplaying all of CP3's accomplishments while exaggerating Rondo's at this point.

  Too much of a stretch how? I don't see how anybody can watch Team USA and be truly impressed by their half court offense. A healthy Celts starting five would easily dispatch them.

The one with Durant? Probably.

The one with CP3/Kobe/Lebron/Melo/Howard with Wade off the bench? With a TRUE PG on it, unlike the Heat?

You're only making a case for the Celtics over that Team USA to make Rondo look better than CP3, but either way, there's no point in me trying to fathom the Celtics as favorites.

[ms.ball]

Is everyone forgetting that Chris Paul played on the USA gold medal winning basketball team? That he led that team in assists? A team over flowing with stars who shot 55% from the floor as a team? A team of players known for having to have the ball in their hands like Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade?

It seems to me that if Rondo can efficiently run this offense with the players on this team then Chris Paul's experience in the Olympics, getting the ball to star players so they can most efficiently score, qualifies him as being able to do the job of running the Celtics offense as well as Rondo.

  Every time I see a Team USA game my first thought is "the Celts could beat the snot out of that team". Last year they won a gold having an offense that largely consisted of getting the ball to Durant. Also, if you've got a team with Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade, you're going to get a ton of transition baskets. Take those baskets out and that FG% is less impressive, considering the level of talent on that team and the level of defense they faced.

This is too much of a stretch; no doubt you're just downplaying all of CP3's accomplishments while exaggerating Rondo's at this point.

  Too much of a stretch how? I don't see how anybody can watch Team USA and be truly impressed by their half court offense. A healthy Celts starting five would easily dispatch them.

The one with Durant? Probably.

The one with CP3/Kobe/Lebron/Melo/Howard with Wade off the bench? With a TRUE PG on it, unlike the Heat?

You're only making a case for the Celtics over that Team USA to make Rondo look better than CP3, but either way, there's no point in me trying to fathom the Celtics as favorites.

yeah but if I'm not mistaken it was Wade off the bench who carried team USA. I'm not real sure why Paul was even brought up as being the leader of that team? Team USA played mostly transition basketball, there were no constant play calling. Yes Cp3 help them, but he definitely wasn't the leader.

[BballTim]

Is everyone forgetting that Chris Paul played on the USA gold medal winning basketball team? That he led that team in assists? A team over flowing with stars who shot 55% from the floor as a team? A team of players known for having to have the ball in their hands like Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade?

It seems to me that if Rondo can efficiently run this offense with the players on this team then Chris Paul's experience in the Olympics, getting the ball to star players so they can most efficiently score, qualifies him as being able to do the job of running the Celtics offense as well as Rondo.

  Every time I see a Team USA game my first thought is "the Celts could beat the snot out of that team". Last year they won a gold having an offense that largely consisted of getting the ball to Durant. Also, if you've got a team with Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade, you're going to get a ton of transition baskets. Take those baskets out and that FG% is less impressive, considering the level of talent on that team and the level of defense they faced.

This is too much of a stretch; no doubt you're just downplaying all of CP3's accomplishments while exaggerating Rondo's at this point.

  Too much of a stretch how? I don't see how anybody can watch Team USA and be truly impressed by their half court offense. A healthy Celts starting five would easily dispatch them.

The one with Durant? Probably.

The one with CP3/Kobe/Lebron/Melo/Howard with Wade off the bench? With a TRUE PG on it, unlike the Heat?

You're only making a case for the Celtics over that Team USA to make Rondo look better than CP3, but either way, there's no point in me trying to fathom the Celtics as favorites.

  Yeah, collections of all-stars will always destroy a well built team, that's why the Heat opened last season looking like the 2008 Celts.

  Things that some people can't fathom happen every day.

[Tai]

Is everyone forgetting that Chris Paul played on the USA gold medal winning basketball team? That he led that team in assists? A team over flowing with stars who shot 55% from the floor as a team? A team of players known for having to have the ball in their hands like Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade?

It seems to me that if Rondo can efficiently run this offense with the players on this team then Chris Paul's experience in the Olympics, getting the ball to star players so they can most efficiently score, qualifies him as being able to do the job of running the Celtics offense as well as Rondo.

  Every time I see a Team USA game my first thought is "the Celts could beat the snot out of that team". Last year they won a gold having an offense that largely consisted of getting the ball to Durant. Also, if you've got a team with Melo, Lebron, Kobe, and Wade, you're going to get a ton of transition baskets. Take those baskets out and that FG% is less impressive, considering the level of talent on that team and the level of defense they faced.

This is too much of a stretch; no doubt you're just downplaying all of CP3's accomplishments while exaggerating Rondo's at this point.

  Too much of a stretch how? I don't see how anybody can watch Team USA and be truly impressed by their half court offense. A healthy Celts starting five would easily dispatch them.

The one with Durant? Probably.

The one with CP3/Kobe/Lebron/Melo/Howard with Wade off the bench? With a TRUE PG on it, unlike the Heat?

You're only making a case for the Celtics over that Team USA to make Rondo look better than CP3, but either way, there's no point in me trying to fathom the Celtics as favorites.

yeah but if I'm not mistaken it was Wade off the bench who carried team USA. I'm not real sure why Paul was even brought up as being the leader of that team? Team USA played mostly transition basketball, there were no constant play calling. Yes Cp3 help them, but he definitely wasn't the leader.

I didn't imply that CP3 was the leader, I just said he was a true PG, something that Durant's Team USA in the 2010 Worlds didn't have.