I hate to admit it but getting Howard means trading Rondo for Chris Paul

[BballTim]

Anybody that argues against trading Rondo for CP3 truly has no idea how good Chris Paul really is

Handles:  even
Passing:  barely Rondo
Speed:  even
Rebounding:  barely Rondo
Defense:  barely Rondo
Running an offense:  about even
Shooting:  Paul
Scoring:  Paul
Free Throw Shooting: Paul
Clutch Outside Shooting: Paul
Ability to not have their defender sag off them because of their atrocious shooting: Paul
Ability to go to the basket late because they aren't afraid of being fouled: Paul
Ability to single handedly carry a team if needed: Paul

Here I fixed that for you.

  You left out "led an offense that was near the bottom of the league in inside scoring" (Paul). And Rondo carried the team past the Cavs in 09, I'm pretty sure that matches the number of playoff series CP3's carried a team through. Unless "single-handedly carry a team" meant "carry a team to a loss" or "if needed" excluded the playoffs.

[BballTim]

Anybody that argues against trading Rondo for CP3 truly has no idea how good Chris Paul really is

Handles:  even
Passing:  barely Rondo
Speed:  even
Rebounding:  barely Rondo
Defense:  barely Rondo
Running an offense:  about even
Shooting:  Paul
Scoring:  Paul
Free Throw Shooting: Paul
Clutch Outside Shooting: Paul
Ability to not have their defender sag off them because of their atrocious shooting: Paul
Ability to go to the basket late because they aren't afraid of being fouled: Paul
Ability to single handedly carry a team if needed: Paul

Here I fixed that for you.

Paul is a better passer.

  No he isn't.

[nickagneta]

Anybody that argues against trading Rondo for CP3 truly has no idea how good Chris Paul really is

Handles:  even
Passing:  barely Rondo
Speed:  even
Rebounding:  barely Rondo
Defense:  barely Rondo
Running an offense:  about even
Shooting:  Paul
Scoring:  Paul
Free Throw Shooting: Paul
Clutch Outside Shooting: Paul
Ability to not have their defender sag off them because of their atrocious shooting: Paul
Ability to go to the basket late because they aren't afraid of being fouled: Paul
Ability to single handedly carry a team if needed: Paul

Here I fixed that for you.

  You left out "led an offense that was near the bottom of the league in inside scoring" (Paul). And Rondo carried the team past the Cavs in 09, I'm pretty sure that matches the number of playoff series CP3's carried a team through. Unless "single-handedly carry a team" meant "carry a team to a loss" or "if needed" excluded the playoffs.

I know how you love twisting the meaning of things but here's a fact, Chris Paul has had more 20+ point/10+assist games in the last two years than Rondo has his whole career. Chris Paul had more 30+ points scoring in 2009-10 than Rondo has his whole career. This all well being an excellent defender, same as Rondo.

That's single handedly carry a team.

That's also while averaging over 40 games won a season while having not one single player even close to the caliber of Ray Allen never mind having to play with a trio of players the caliber of Garnett, Pierce and Allen.

Twist my words all you want, Rondo hasn't the shown the ability to consistently carry a team when they need it the way Paul has in fourth quarters of games or winning games pretty much by themselves with little to no help.

I love Rondo. I think very little people here at this site can show the history of defending and telling people how good Rondo is at this site as I can. That said, if I had to trade Rondo for anyone, the only PG in this league I would trade him for is Paul. He's just a better all around player.

[BballTim]

Anybody that argues against trading Rondo for CP3 truly has no idea how good Chris Paul really is

Handles:  even
Passing:  barely Rondo
Speed:  even
Rebounding:  barely Rondo
Defense:  barely Rondo
Running an offense:  about even
Shooting:  Paul
Scoring:  Paul
Free Throw Shooting: Paul
Clutch Outside Shooting: Paul
Ability to not have their defender sag off them because of their atrocious shooting: Paul
Ability to go to the basket late because they aren't afraid of being fouled: Paul
Ability to single handedly carry a team if needed: Paul

Here I fixed that for you.

  You left out "led an offense that was near the bottom of the league in inside scoring" (Paul). And Rondo carried the team past the Cavs in 09, I'm pretty sure that matches the number of playoff series CP3's carried a team through. Unless "single-handedly carry a team" meant "carry a team to a loss" or "if needed" excluded the playoffs.

I know how you love twisting the meaning of things but here's a fact, Chris Paul has had more 20+ point/10+assist games in the last two years than Rondo has his whole career. Chris Paul had more 30+ points scoring in 2009-10 than Rondo has his whole career. This all well being an excellent defender, same as Rondo.

That's single handedly carry a team.

  Haha. When someone goes on about how a player single handedly carried his team, pointing out that he didn't carry them anywhere isn't twisting their words. It's pointing out the obvious.

That's also while averaging over 40 games won a season while having not one single player even close to the caliber of Ray Allen never mind having to play with a trio of players the caliber of Garnett, Pierce and Allen.

Twist my words all you want, Rondo hasn't the shown the ability to consistently carry a team when they need it the way Paul has in fourth quarters of games or winning games pretty much by themselves with little to no help.

  I don't think it's at all accurate to say David West is nowhere near the caliber of Ray Allen. Rondo's never had to carry a team on offense, just like Chris Paul has never shown that he can effectively run an offense with three other scorers. But Rondo averaged 16/10/10 in the 09 playoffs with no KG despite battling ankle sprains throughout, so I think the rush to say he's incapable of stepping up his game is premature.

I love Rondo. I think very little people here at this site can show the history of defending and telling people how good Rondo is at this site as I can. That said, if I had to trade Rondo for anyone, the only PG in this league I would trade him for is Paul. He's just a better all around player.

  Based on this thread, I'd say you're not a hater but not among his biggest supporters. FWIW, I don't think I'm near the top in this thread either.

[Celtics4ever]

Rondo has taken over a playoff series for us and won it.   I think he did so very ORL and CLE last year.  Has Paul ever done that.   I think most of Rondo's gifts are in between his ears.   I think Paul has more skills than Rajon but Rondo has more grit and heart in spades.  I do not think we'd be seeing Paul play if his elbow was delocated.   Rondo is more of a warrior.  I do think Paul is the better player overall but a lot of Rondo's gifts are intangibles. 

Stats are not everything just ask LeBron James.   They should have won but they did not.  Paul would need the ball more than Rondo and would take away from the Big Three in that regard.  Other teams would have to play us honest though and it might negate that.

[nickagneta]

  Haha. When someone goes on about how a player single handedly carried his team, pointing out that he didn't carry them anywhere isn't twisting their words. It's pointing out the obvious.

Yes, that's twisting my words. Here's what I said:

Ability to single handedly carry a team if needed: Paul

Ability to. Did I say he led them singlehandedly to a world championship or something? No.

As a matter of fact who ever has led their team singlehandedly to a title? MJ, Hakeem...........That's about it. So I guess your definition of carrying a team singlehandedly somewhere starts and stops with two players in the entire history of the NBA.

Me? I see that definition as something different.

  Based on this thread, I'd say you're not a hater but not among his biggest supporters. FWIW, I don't think I'm near the top in this thread either.

I can support a player to the hilt but when I feel another player is better than him I will say so. Just because you want to tunnel vision your view of my statement to this thread doesn't mean that its not true. I love Rondo. I want no other PG running this team. Except one. The guy I think is a better player than Rondo and the guy I would guess that 95% of the rest of the world(besides Celtics fans) thinks is a better basketball player than Rondo, Chris Paul.

BTW is everyone forgetting the 2007-08 season Paul had where he led his supporting cast of David West(not sure he was even a top 35 player in the league even back then), Tyson Chandler(who wasn't playing nearly the defense he did this year), Peja Stojakovic(yikes that was the Hornets third best player?), Bonzi Wells(nif said) and nothing else to a 2nd seed in the West, a playoff series win over the Mavs and to 7 games against the 56 win Spurs of Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Bowen, Finley, Horry, and Thomas.

Chris Paul has single handedly carried a team somewhere before.

I won't even comment on the running a team with three scorers comment as I am guessing people are forgetting the 2008 gold medal winning USA Olympic basketball team.

[BballTim]

  Haha. When someone goes on about how a player single handedly carried his team, pointing out that he didn't carry them anywhere isn't twisting their words. It's pointing out the obvious.

Yes, that's twisting my words. Here's what I said:

Ability to single handedly carry a team if needed: Paul

Ability to. Did I say he led them singlehandedly to a world championship or something? No.

  I see. So you were saying that he "could" single handedly lead a team somewhere, not that he has? That's practically Clinton-esque.

As a matter of fact who ever has led their team singlehandedly to a title? MJ, Hakeem...........That's about it. So I guess your definition of carrying a team singlehandedly somewhere starts and stops with two players in the entire history of the NBA.

  Did I give that definition  of carrying a team single handedly? Clearly not. You're twisting my words, and I don't even need to amend my comments to make that claim like you did.

  Based on this thread, I'd say you're not a hater but not among his biggest supporters. FWIW, I don't think I'm near the top in this thread either.

I can support a player to the hilt but when I feel another player is better than him I will say so. Just because you want to tunnel vision your view of my statement to this thread doesn't mean that its not true. I love Rondo. I want no other PG running this team. Except one. The guy I think is a better player than Rondo and the guy I would guess that 95% of the rest of the world(besides Celtics fans) thinks is a better basketball player than Rondo, Chris Paul.

  That's why Rondo never makes the all-star team or gets a good number of votes for the all-nba team and never gets thrown into the conversation of possible mvp candidates or best point guards? I think most people who talk about what low regard non Celts fans hold Rondo in need to rethink their positions.

BTW is everyone forgetting the 2007-08 season Paul had where he led his supporting cast of David West(not sure he was even a top 35 player in the league even back then), Tyson Chandler(who wasn't playing nearly the defense he did this year), Peja Stojakovic(yikes that was the Hornets third best player?), Bonzi Wells(nif said) and nothing else to a 2nd seed in the West, a playoff series win over the Mavs and to 7 games against the 56 win Spurs of Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Bowen, Finley, Horry, and Thomas.

Chris Paul has single handedly carried a team somewhere before.

  If we go back to *your* definition of carrying a team, Paul had 12 games of 30+ points in 07-08 and 1 last year. He had 31 games of 20+points/10+ assists in 07-08 and 14 last year. Instead of getting the 2nd seed, they were 7th seed and a first round loss to a Lakers team that sucked at the end of the season and was swept in the 2nd round.

  Maybe when you said "Ability to carry a team" you meant "had" and not "has".

[FallGuy]

Again. Nobody in the league thinks Rondo is better than Chris Paul other than a few errant Celtics fans.

[BballTim]

Again. Nobody in the league thinks Rondo is better than Chris Paul other than a few errant Celtics fans.

  That might mean something if you could show it to be true.

[nickagneta]

Again. Nobody in the league thinks Rondo is better than Chris Paul other than a few errant Celtics fans.

  That might mean something if you could show it to be true.

The same way anyone who has an opinion that Rondo is better than Paul might have an opinion that might mean something because they can't prove their point either.

But, statistics do give a good indication of how to judge players as well as taking a consensus of various polls and best of lists. And those things point towards Paul being better than Rondo.

[bfrombleacher]

Yes, Paul is better than Rondo but it's not a straight up one for one trade.

Rondo costs much less and he knows Doc. The smart thing to do I think is to keep Rondo and get a lot of solid players. Rondo is as good as the players around him are. Try for Dwight Howard and if that doesn't work, there are a few other solid centers in the FA and the trading block in 2012. If we nab some big names like Josh Smith (Rondo can create a shot for him so I'm really not worried about him burping shots) and OJ Mayo, Dwight might be interested. Both players have expressed interest in Boston.

If he's not interested, we wouldn't be stuck with an upgraded Rondo and a disassembled roster to accommodate him. We'd lose some first rounders and probably Jeff Green getting Chris Paul.

If we get Howard and Chris Paul, we'd have Howard and Chris Paul and scrubs. So...the Magic in the past few years but with a much better point guard? Is Dwight really interested in doing that again?

So I guess the answer is...no. I don't think getting Dwight has to involve losing Rondo. Sure, Paul is a big name and would increase our chances of getting Howard but there are other means that are less cap space intensive and would allow us to keep our assets like draft picks and our players.

[mgent]

That's also while averaging over 40 games won a season while having not one single player even close to the caliber of Ray Allen never mind having to play with a trio of players the caliber of Garnett, Pierce and Allen.

David West has scored more than all the big 3 for the past 4 years.  He's an all-star caliber player, and brings more consistent offense than any of the big 3 do night in and night out.  I hate it when people just disregard him and try to equate what Chris Paul is doing with the Hornets to what Allen Iverson did with the 6ers.  THAT was somebody single-handedly carrying a team on their back.

It's completely unfair to say that Chris Paul has no help.  Okafor and West are both incredible finishers and good pick and roll partners.  They are a very big part of Chris Paul's assist numbers.

[BballTim]

Again. Nobody in the league thinks Rondo is better than Chris Paul other than a few errant Celtics fans.

  That might mean something if you could show it to be true.

The same way anyone who has an opinion that Rondo is better than Paul might have an opinion that might mean something because they can't prove their point either.

  If I say Rondo's a better defender than CP3 it's my opinion. If I say that the consensus of the coaches is that Rondo's a better defender it's probably a fact. If I say every player in the nba thinks Rondo's a better defender than CP3 then it's made up nonsense that I'm using to try and bolster my opinion.

But, statistics do give a good indication of how to judge players as well as taking a consensus of various polls and best of lists. And those things point towards Paul being better than Rondo.

  Yes, but they don't really show how much better, or how much the Celts would improve based on his replacing Rondo.

[nickagneta]

That's also while averaging over 40 games won a season while having not one single player even close to the caliber of Ray Allen never mind having to play with a trio of players the caliber of Garnett, Pierce and Allen.

David West has scored more than all the big 3 for the past 4 years.  He's an all-star caliber player, and brings more consistent offense than any of the big 3 do night in and night out.  I hate it when people just disregard him and try to equate what Chris Paul is doing with the Hornets to what Allen Iverson did with the 6ers.  THAT was somebody single-handedly carrying a team on their back.

It's completely unfair to say that Chris Paul has no help.  Okafor and West are both incredible finishers and good pick and roll partners.  They are a very big part of Chris Paul's assist numbers.

mgent, I'm disappointed that you would compare West's scoring output to those of the Big Three to infer that he is somehow better than they are. I think you know full well that if any of the Big Three were not on this particular team that they would probably be averaging in excess of 20 PPG and hence more than West.

The Big Three sacrifice for the good of the team due to the talent on the team. They sacrifice number in volume for efficiency on the offensive end. You know that.

West never has been and never will be a #1 option guy whereas all three of Garnett, Pierce and Allen have been. West is good but I not sure he's a top 40 or 50 player in the league now or ever has been.

It will be interesting to see what David West is sans Chris Paul as his PG. May guess is not as good as his Per36 scoring numbers, PER, TS%, eFG%, win shares and turnover% all took a major turn for the better once Chris Paul came on the scene.

[BballTim]

That's also while averaging over 40 games won a season while having not one single player even close to the caliber of Ray Allen never mind having to play with a trio of players the caliber of Garnett, Pierce and Allen.

David West has scored more than all the big 3 for the past 4 years.  He's an all-star caliber player, and brings more consistent offense than any of the big 3 do night in and night out.  I hate it when people just disregard him and try to equate what Chris Paul is doing with the Hornets to what Allen Iverson did with the 6ers.  THAT was somebody single-handedly carrying a team on their back.

It's completely unfair to say that Chris Paul has no help.  Okafor and West are both incredible finishers and good pick and roll partners.  They are a very big part of Chris Paul's assist numbers.

mgent, I'm disappointed that you would compare West's scoring output to those of the Big Three to infer that he is somehow better than they are. I think you know full well that if any of the Big Three were not on this particular team that they would probably be averaging in excess of 20 PPG and hence more than West.

The Big Three sacrifice for the good of the team due to the talent on the team. They sacrifice number in volume for efficiency on the offensive end. You know that.

  I agree that the Big three sacrifice stats for the good of the team, but if they were all capable of scoring in excess of 20 a game we wouldn't have so many scoring droughts and the offense would not drop off so much when Rondo came out.

West never has been and never will be a #1 option guy whereas all three of Garnett, Pierce and Allen have been. West is good but I not sure he's a top 40 or 50 player in the league now or ever has been.

  He's led the Hornets in scoring the last 2 years and in FGA for at least the last 4 years. Some would call that a #1 option.

It will be interesting to see what David West is sans Chris Paul as his PG. May guess is not as good as his Per36 scoring numbers, PER, TS%, eFG%, win shares and turnover% all took a major turn for the better once Chris Paul came on the scene.

  CP3 came on the scene during West's 3rd season. Most players see their numbers improve around then, not just CP3's teammates. Plus his numbers held pretty steady when Paul missed almost half of the 09-10 season.