Western Conference Semis: Blazers (2) Vs Jazz (3)

[Fafnir]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

Jefferson rebounds pretty much as good as Bogut. Haywood is not shabby either.

This isn't true.

Big Al 16.3 RR at C
Bogut 18.3 RR at C
Haywood 16.5 RR at C

18 is top tier of rebounding Cs
16 is around average

Qualitatively I'll also add that Big Al gets his own boards, but is a terrible team rebounder. His lack of drive and committment to boxing out lets the other team get offensive boards that could have been prevented. The Jazz became a much worse defensive rebounding team with him instead of Boozer, much worse than his personal rebounding stats would lead you to believe.

I guess you assume being around KG won't help for a full season and training camp? That has to be factored in.

Not really, I if Jerry Sloan and Milsap can't get a better effort out of Big Al I don't expect KG to.

[Kane3387]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

Jefferson rebounds pretty much as good as Bogut. Haywood is not shabby either.

This isn't true.

Big Al 16.3 RR at C
Bogut 18.3 RR at C
Haywood 16.5 RR at C

18 is top tier of rebounding Cs
16 is around average

Qualitatively I'll also add that Big Al gets his own boards, but is a terrible team rebounder. His lack of drive and committment to boxing out lets the other team get offensive boards that could have been prevented. The Jazz became a much worse defensive rebounding team with him instead of Boozer, much worse than his personal rebounding stats would lead you to believe.

There is also not a lot of good Centers for him to better then... Is he a better Center then Big Al? Sure. Enough to say he dominates that match up? No. Look at the H2H. Big Al produces against him. Look at their matchup last year when Big AL got to play with Deron Williams and for Jerry Sloan before the team went into disarray.

In that game their numbers were both good against one another. But Big Al was a + 21 and Bogut was like - 15. It's not that one sided...

Also Bogut's regular season numbers are irrelevant here. Hionestly most players are. The only numbers that really matter are how guys play against their counter parts because that is who they are playing for 4-7 games. Bogut doesn't dominate Big Al by any stretch of the imagination and won't in this series.

Now Pierce on Delfino... That's different.

[indeedproceed]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

Jefferson rebounds pretty much as good as Bogut. Haywood is not shabby either.

This isn't true.

Big Al 16.3 RR at C
Bogut 18.3 RR at C
Haywood 16.5 RR at C

18 is top tier of rebounding Cs
16 is around average

Qualitatively I'll also add that Big Al gets his own boards, but is a terrible team rebounder. His lack of drive and committment to boxing out lets the other team get offensive boards that could have been prevented. The Jazz became a much worse defensive rebounding team with him instead of Boozer, much worse than his personal rebounding stats would lead you to believe.

There is also not a lot of good Centers for him to better then... Is he a better Center then Big Al? Sure. Enough to say he dominates that match up? No. Look at the H2H. Big Al produces against him. Look at their matchup last year when Big AL got to play with Deron Williams and for Jerry Sloan before the team went into disarray.

In that game their numbers were both good against one another. But Big Al was a + 21 and Bogut was like - 15. It's not that one sided...

Also Bogut's regular season numbers are irrelevant here. Hionestly most players are. The only numbers that really matter are how guys play against their counter parts because that is who they are playing for 4-7 games. Bogut doesn't dominate Big Al by any stretch of the imagination and won't in this series.

Now Pierce on Delfino... That's different.

Al Jefferson is a career 44% shooter against Andrew Bogut. The last time they met, Bogut scored more on less shots, while still bringing everything else he brings that isn't listed on the stat sheet. To represent them as marginally close is just plain wrong. Not even remotely correct.

And, that 47% Al Jefferson shot against Bogut the last time was his best mark in over a year. Two H2H's prior to that he shot 25% and 36% from the field, respectively.

[indeedproceed]

Now Pierce on Delfino... That's different.

Pierce is a far better player than Delfino, I've never maintained that Delfino could contain him the entire series.

My point was that Delfino is good enough to limit Pierce, at least in spurts. Pierce's shooting against Delfino since Delfino has been starting in Milwaukee hasn't been a domination by any means.

[Fafnir]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

Jefferson rebounds pretty much as good as Bogut. Haywood is not shabby either.

This isn't true.

Big Al 16.3 RR at C
Bogut 18.3 RR at C
Haywood 16.5 RR at C

18 is top tier of rebounding Cs
16 is around average

Qualitatively I'll also add that Big Al gets his own boards, but is a terrible team rebounder. His lack of drive and committment to boxing out lets the other team get offensive boards that could have been prevented. The Jazz became a much worse defensive rebounding team with him instead of Boozer, much worse than his personal rebounding stats would lead you to believe.

There is also not a lot of good Centers for him to better then... Is he a better Center then Big Al? Sure. Enough to say he dominates that match up? No. Look at the H2H. Big Al produces against him. Look at their matchup last year when Big AL got to play with Deron Williams and for Jerry Sloan before the team went into disarray.

In that game their numbers were both good against one another. But Big Al was a + 21 and Bogut was like - 15. It's not that one sided...

Also Bogut's regular season numbers are irrelevant here. Hionestly most players are. The only numbers that really matter are how guys play against their counter parts because that is who they are playing for 4-7 games. Bogut doesn't dominate Big Al by any stretch of the imagination and won't in this series.

Now Pierce on Delfino... That's different.

So a single game where they had even rebound rates means that Bogut won't build a large board advantage of Big Al in a playoff series?

But then regular season numbers don't matter?

I don't understand your argument here.

[Kane3387]

Anyways enough about the 4 and the 5 IP. Is that all you can debate on?

Let's focus on the 1,2,3 and the bench. This is where I clearly win.

Baron has the strength to not be bullied by Lowry. As my rankings show Baron did not hurt my "old" team so he must be buying in and be in pretty good shape. Something that didn't take place for the rebuilding Clippers and the worst coach in the NBA in Del Negro.

He goes to Byron Scott and an even worse team in Cleveland and they glow about him. He's healthier and happier. He is more appreciated and his role is not that of carrying the team.

Baron against Lowry in the playoffs is an advantage for utah. He is more experienced and plays better in the playoffs.

Butler and Thabo are better then Harden and Morrow. Thabo can shut down both of those guys and starts on his real team over Harden. Butler will be able to produce for the 18 mpg he is in there. Derrick William has never played in an NBA game let alone a playoff game with KG barking at him. KG will take this rookie out of the game mentally. My whole TEAM will be talking and your inexperience and youth will show.

Jamal Crawford is by far the best bench player in this series and the best SG in this series.

Pierce destroys Delfino.

Haywood is the best back-up big man in this series.

[Who]

Utah should start Thabo against Harden. Use Caron as the main wing off the bench.

[Kane3387]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

Jefferson rebounds pretty much as good as Bogut. Haywood is not shabby either.

This isn't true.

Big Al 16.3 RR at C
Bogut 18.3 RR at C
Haywood 16.5 RR at C

18 is top tier of rebounding Cs
16 is around average

Qualitatively I'll also add that Big Al gets his own boards, but is a terrible team rebounder. His lack of drive and committment to boxing out lets the other team get offensive boards that could have been prevented. The Jazz became a much worse defensive rebounding team with him instead of Boozer, much worse than his personal rebounding stats would lead you to believe.

There is also not a lot of good Centers for him to better then... Is he a better Center then Big Al? Sure. Enough to say he dominates that match up? No. Look at the H2H. Big Al produces against him. Look at their matchup last year when Big AL got to play with Deron Williams and for Jerry Sloan before the team went into disarray.

In that game their numbers were both good against one another. But Big Al was a + 21 and Bogut was like - 15. It's not that one sided...

Also Bogut's regular season numbers are irrelevant here. Hionestly most players are. The only numbers that really matter are how guys play against their counter parts because that is who they are playing for 4-7 games. Bogut doesn't dominate Big Al by any stretch of the imagination and won't in this series.

Now Pierce on Delfino... That's different.

So a single game where they had even rebound rates means that Bogut won't build a large board advantage of Big Al in a playoff series?

But then regular season numbers don't matter?

I don't understand your argument here.

H2H matters more. For example Dwight Howard is awesome in the regular season. He's superman. But against Perk he was Clark Kent. Regualr season numbers didn't matter in a playoff series against Orlando and Boston in 2010.

That's because while Dwight is ungauardable against the rest of the league, he wasn't against Perk. In short Dwights numbers in the regular season don't resemble when he plays a healthy Perk.

Enough with the 4 and the 5 though. I consent that Portland has a slight edge in regards to the starting 4 and 5. Still that's two positions... What about the BENCH???

What about the PG, the SG, and PIERCE??? What about those variables in this equation? I'm not dumb lol I know this is where my team wins the series. Utah in six at home.

[nickagneta]

Did I read that correctly?

Did IP say that Bogut was the second best center in the NBA?

Let's see:

Dwight Howard
Andrew Bynum
Marc Gasol
Pau Gasol
Tim Duncan

I would probably rate these guys better than Bogut at center

Guys about the same as Bogut:

Al Horford
Joakim Noah
Nene
Al Jefferson

Top 5 center. Probably with some debate.

2nd best. Not buying that one.

Joakim Noah

[Kane3387]

Now Pierce on Delfino... That's different.

Pierce is a far better player than Delfino, I've never maintained that Delfino could contain him the entire series.

My point was that Delfino is good enough to limit Pierce, at least in spurts. Pierce's shooting against Delfino since Delfino has been starting in Milwaukee hasn't been a domination by any means.

In a playoff series where Pierce can analyze how Delfino is guarding him to the full extent though is different. Pierce is one of the smartest players in the NBA and in Celtic's history (that's saying a lot). His footwork is some of the best for his position ever. Delfino will be exploited here. He is a weakness on your team. On a good team he is a back up wing, but that's why he starts for Milwaukee.

Pierce will dominate this match-up in a seven game series. He did it to Prince in 2008. Prince is a superior defender then to Delfino now and Pierce game has not fallen off THAT much from 2008. It really hasn't. His production is similar. Look at 2010 against Orlando. Pierce dominated that series while destroying Barnes and Pietrus. Why? Because they don't make him work on defense.

60 percent of Delfino's shots are from 3. He never drives. Pierce will be resting on defense for most of the series and using all his energy on offense.

[Fafnir]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

Jefferson rebounds pretty much as good as Bogut. Haywood is not shabby either.

This isn't true.

Big Al 16.3 RR at C
Bogut 18.3 RR at C
Haywood 16.5 RR at C

18 is top tier of rebounding Cs
16 is around average

Qualitatively I'll also add that Big Al gets his own boards, but is a terrible team rebounder. His lack of drive and committment to boxing out lets the other team get offensive boards that could have been prevented. The Jazz became a much worse defensive rebounding team with him instead of Boozer, much worse than his personal rebounding stats would lead you to believe.

There is also not a lot of good Centers for him to better then... Is he a better Center then Big Al? Sure. Enough to say he dominates that match up? No. Look at the H2H. Big Al produces against him. Look at their matchup last year when Big AL got to play with Deron Williams and for Jerry Sloan before the team went into disarray.

In that game their numbers were both good against one another. But Big Al was a + 21 and Bogut was like - 15. It's not that one sided...

Also Bogut's regular season numbers are irrelevant here. Hionestly most players are. The only numbers that really matter are how guys play against their counter parts because that is who they are playing for 4-7 games. Bogut doesn't dominate Big Al by any stretch of the imagination and won't in this series.

Now Pierce on Delfino... That's different.

So a single game where they had even rebound rates means that Bogut won't build a large board advantage of Big Al in a playoff series?

But then regular season numbers don't matter?

I don't understand your argument here.

H2H matters more. For example Dwight Howard is awesome in the regular season. He's superman. But against Perk he was Clark Kent. Regualr season numbers didn't matter in a playoff series against Orlando and Boston in 2010. That's because while Dwight is ungauardable against the rest of the league, he wasn't against Perk. In short Dwights numbers in the regular season don't resemble when he plays a healthy Perk.

This isn't true at all. Perkins does an admirable job single covering Dwight Howard.

But Howard still did well against the Celtics the two times they've matched up in the playoffs. His teammates were incapable of stepping up and beating the C's effectively since they didn't give their centers help against Howard.

(well they didn't in 09-10, in 08-09 they did. But then again the C's shouldn't have been in that series without KG.....)

[Fafnir]

Did I read that correctly?

Did IP say that Bogut was the second best center in the NBA?

Let's see:

Dwight Howard
Andrew Bynum
Marc Gasol
Pau Gasol
Tim Duncan

I would probably rate these guys better than Bogut at center

Guys about the same as Bogut:

Al Horford
Joakim Noah
Nene
Al Jefferson

Top 5 center. Probably with some debate.

2nd best. Not buying that one.

Joakim Noah

I have to agree with Nick on this, Bogut is not in the discussion for a top center in the league. His offensive game is too limited, he had a stretch during 09-10 before his elbow/arm/wrist injury that made him look like the 2nd best center. But he hasn't done that consistently over his career.

He is however the second best defensive C in the league, and probably the 3rd best big man defensively (behind Howard/KG)

As an aside the lesser Gasol doesn't deserve to be on that list anywhere near that high. Life is good being an average C next to Z-Bo it seems....though he did play above that against SAS.

[Kane3387]

Did I read that correctly?

Did IP say that Bogut was the second best center in the NBA?

Let's see:

Dwight Howard
Andrew Bynum
Marc Gasol
Pau Gasol
Tim Duncan

I would probably rate these guys better than Bogut at center

Guys about the same as Bogut:

Al Horford
Joakim Noah
Nene
Al Jefferson

Top 5 center. Probably with some debate.

2nd best. Not buying that one.

Joakim Noah

Look at the ALL NBA defensive teams voted by the Coaches. Not writers and reporters but guys who truly no the game..

First Team

Pos. Player, Team 1st 2nd Pts

C Dwight Howard, Orlando 27 2 56

G Rajon Rondo, Boston 16 7 39

F LeBron James, Miami 17 4 38

G Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 13 7 33

F Kevin Garnett, Boston 15 3 33

Second Team

G Tony Allen, Memphis 7 9 23

G Chris Paul, New Orleans 6 6 18

C Tyson Chandler, Dallas 3 11 17

F Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia 5 5 15

F/C Joakim Noah, Chicago 3 9 15

Bogut an unbelievable defender got ONE vote only..

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=nba&id=6514791

Other players receiving votes, with point totals (First Team votes in parentheses): Derrick Rose, Chicago, 14 (4); Dwyane Wade, Miami, 13 (3); Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City, 13 (4); Gerald Wallace, Portland, 11 (1); Grant Hill, Phoenix 11 (4); Luol Deng, Chicago 11 (4); Tim Duncan, San Antonio, 11 (3); Chuck Hayes, Houston, 10 (2); Al Horford, Atlanta 7 (3); Josh Smith, Atlanta, 7 (1); Ron Artest, Los Angeles Lakers, 7 (1); Serge Ibaka, Oklahoma City, 6 (1); Shane Battier, Memphis 5 (2); Thabo Sefolosha, Oklahoma City, 5; Wesley Matthews, Portland 4 (2), Kendrick Perkins, Oklahoma City, 3; Nicolas Batum, Portland, 3; (1); Joe Johnson, Atlanta; 2 (1); Keith Bogans, Chicago 2 (1); Kyle Lowry, Houston, 2; Lamar Odom, Los Angeles Lakers, 2; Luc Mbah a Moute, Milwaukee, 2; Manu Ginobili, San Antonio, 2 (1); Andrew Bogut, Milwaukee, 1; Andrew Bynum, Los Angeles Lakers 1; Arron Afflalo, Denver, 1; Jrue Holiday, Philadelphia 1; Kirk Hinrich, Atlanta 1; Nene, Denver, 1; Ronnie Brewer, Chicago, 1; Shawn Marion, Dallas, 1; Tayshaun Prince, Detroit, 1.

Bogut and Lowry didn't even get first team votes. Bogut got less votes then Howard, Noah, chandler, Duncan, Chuck Hayes, Horford, and as many as Nene.

Mbah a muote got more votes and there are on the same team.

I think the coaches know best who creates defensive havoc against their teams.

Bogut is being oversold here...

[Kane3387]

Did I read that correctly?

Did IP say that Bogut was the second best center in the NBA?

Let's see:

Dwight Howard
Andrew Bynum
Marc Gasol
Pau Gasol
Tim Duncan

I would probably rate these guys better than Bogut at center

Guys about the same as Bogut:

Al Horford
Joakim Noah
Nene
Al Jefferson

Top 5 center. Probably with some debate.

2nd best. Not buying that one.

Joakim Noah

I have to agree with Nick on this, Bogut is not in the discussion for a top center in the league. His offensive game is too limited, he had a stretch during 09-10 before his elbow/arm/wrist injury that made him look like the 2nd best center. But he hasn't done that consistently over his career.

He is however the second best defensive C in the league, and probably the 3rd best big man defensively (behind Howard/KG)

As an aside the lesser Gasol doesn't deserve to be on that list anywhere near that high. Life is good being an average C next to Z-Bo it seems....though he did play above that against SAS.

Tyson Chandler is much better then Bogut. He is not a great pick and roll defender. He is a good anchor but that is it.

PERK is better too and so is Noah. Duncan is as well. If Bogut played in a faster scheme then Skiles then he would not be as effective. Lower possession inflate his numbers.

[Kane3387]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

Jefferson rebounds pretty much as good as Bogut. Haywood is not shabby either.

This isn't true.

Big Al 16.3 RR at C
Bogut 18.3 RR at C
Haywood 16.5 RR at C

18 is top tier of rebounding Cs
16 is around average

Qualitatively I'll also add that Big Al gets his own boards, but is a terrible team rebounder. His lack of drive and committment to boxing out lets the other team get offensive boards that could have been prevented. The Jazz became a much worse defensive rebounding team with him instead of Boozer, much worse than his personal rebounding stats would lead you to believe.

There is also not a lot of good Centers for him to better then... Is he a better Center then Big Al? Sure. Enough to say he dominates that match up? No. Look at the H2H. Big Al produces against him. Look at their matchup last year when Big AL got to play with Deron Williams and for Jerry Sloan before the team went into disarray.

In that game their numbers were both good against one another. But Big Al was a + 21 and Bogut was like - 15. It's not that one sided...

Also Bogut's regular season numbers are irrelevant here. Hionestly most players are. The only numbers that really matter are how guys play against their counter parts because that is who they are playing for 4-7 games. Bogut doesn't dominate Big Al by any stretch of the imagination and won't in this series.

Now Pierce on Delfino... That's different.

So a single game where they had even rebound rates means that Bogut won't build a large board advantage of Big Al in a playoff series?

But then regular season numbers don't matter?

I don't understand your argument here.

H2H matters more. For example Dwight Howard is awesome in the regular season. He's superman. But against Perk he was Clark Kent. Regualr season numbers didn't matter in a playoff series against Orlando and Boston in 2010. That's because while Dwight is ungauardable against the rest of the league, he wasn't against Perk. In short Dwights numbers in the regular season don't resemble when he plays a healthy Perk.

This isn't true at all. Perkins does an admirable job single covering Dwight Howard.

But Howard still did well against the Celtics the two times they've matched up in the playoffs. His teammates were incapable of stepping up and beating the C's effectively since they didn't give their centers help against Howard.

(well they didn't in 09-10, in 08-09 they did. But then again the C's shouldn't have been in that series without KG.....)

Yeah and I have KG... I know I know Big Al is not Perk. Still Perk played Howard very well in 2008-09 and was insane in 2009-10. Perk plays great defense on Howard.