Western Conference Semis: Blazers (2) Vs Jazz (3)

[Kane3387]

ur making an assumption, an inaccurate one at that. lowry would be better suited as a backup.  truth is, i did see lowry play...not every game, but a fair share. ur trusting lowry, based on the second half of one season....im not sold on that. plus i dont like the backup at that position....thus ur weak at the point, imo

Well you're right, I'm assuming you didn't watch Lowry play much last season, because the kid was unbelievable, and not just in the latter half of the season.

unbelievable?!  i think not.  he was good, but not great.

i think he is a binky for u and ur not seeing things objectively (which i understand bc u have a motive here....trying to sell ur team).

my original statement was about the point guard position....not just lowry.  lowry is a good back up imo. putting so much faith in him to lead a team in the second round is not wise imo.  throw in a lack of a reputable backup for him, and the pg spot is a major weakness for u, imo

Lowry is not the second coming of CP3. This guy is more like Greg Anthony. He's good but expecting him to be the PG of a title team with the talent you have, having never started a playoff game, and having never started a full season is unrealistic. You have a one All Star player who is a one player and a system player at that who is being guarded by the best defensive player at his position and arguably in the NBA.

Please, I've got 5 players who are all at or near the top of their talent pools at their respective position, and you're staking your team on a 35 (almost 36 by the time this playoff series comes around) year old PF, a 34 year old SF, a point guard who is more inconsistent than MadTV, you don't have a shooting guard that fits the role you want him to play, and you have a 1-trick pony at the Center position, who isn't even all that great at his 1-trick.

Boston lost this year because they lacked the athleticism to keep up with and defend the Miami Heat. I've got better athletes at 5 of the 5 starting positions, I've got better athletes off the bench, I've got more talent, that goes deeper, and more versatility.

Boston lost because injuries made them trade away a piece of their core. The injuries to Rondo and Shaq were also the reason. We played over half the series with a ONE ARMED Pg and still were in every game. This was because Pierce and KG played tough prideful basketball.

To say Pierce and KG's age is why we lost is a lie!   

Kg had one of his best playoff games ever against a far more superior team then yours in Miami. Pierce averaged over 20 a game against Lebron James. Lol you have Delfino...

[indeedproceed]

PLEASE look at this link and look at statistics by position. Amare is much more effective as a Center. He will be a PF here in this series.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/1727/amare-stoudemire

His best frontcourt partner was Ronny Turiaf. Andrew Bogut is the second best center in the NBA. How in god's green earth is who he played next to as a Knick relevant here?

That's like saying Al Jefferson statistically plays better as a center because he averages more points, while completely ignoring that he plays horrible team defense, isn't a terribly efficient scorer, and routinely gets abused by bigger centers.

Kevin Garnett statistically was better as a center a lot of the times in Minnesota, but that doesn't mean Boston was wrong for switching him to the 4.

This has been summed up already. Bogut will clog the lane and slow the pace down just like Shaq did in Phoenix when he had an All Star year.

Quote from: IndeedProceed on Today at 03:11:23 pm
Quote from: Who on Today at 03:06:27 pm
Quote from: Fafnir on Today at 03:02:09 pm
Quote from: action781 on Today at 02:58:14 pm
Only 1 of the other several times they played that season did Amare go off
He scored 39, 27, and 16 in the regular season. On a TS% of .594, .727, and .477.

He lit us up 2 out of 3 in the regular season. Though a part of me wonders how much of that was against KG. I do recall Doc putting Davis on him for long long stretches of those games waiting to use KG in the four quarter. I know KG fouled out in one of the Knick games...
Amare played a lot of center in those two earlier regular season contests (his big scoring nights) with NY spacing the floor with four shooters.

It's a whole different ball game to put him at PF with a big man clogging the paint. That makes Amare a much easier player to defend. His turnovers go up and his scoring efficiency goes down.

Why? Amar'e is very skilled at putting the ball on the floor and finishing in traffic. Since AL Jefferson will be playing next to KG, what's stopping Amar'e from taking KG to task early on and taking him to the rack? Stopping quick athletic frontcourt players who can put the ball on the floor seems to be KG's biggest weakness, due to his diminished lateral quickness.

Amare's athletic + skill-set advantages are far greater vs centers than power forwards.

Centers are slower and less equipped athletically to match him + are generally weaker defensively away from the basket and have a very tough time with his face up game.

Power forwards are quicker and defend his face up game much better.

-------------------------------------------------

Kevin Garnett was the second best defensive big man in the league last year and was, by a large margin, the best defensive PF around.

Baby was on Stoudemire most of the game because he could not guard one of the quicker perimeter players. Only KG had the ability to do that.

Andrew Bogut and Shaq are not the same player. For one, Bogut is better now than Shaq was then.

But, you're missing a very crucial point here. Shaq demanded the ball. His ego was bigger than his game, and it showed when he played. He demanded the touches everytime that things started stalling or going wrong, and for Shaq to get the touches, he's gonna camp out like a boy scout memorial day weekend.

Bogut doesn't have that ego. If he's gotta clear out the lane to allow Amar'e room to work, he can. If he's directed to take his possessions and kill Big Al with his 60% shooting, he can. Its not a problem with him. When dealing with Shaq when he still saw himself as a franchise player, its a different story.

Baby was on Stoudemire most of the game because he could not guard one of the quicker perimeter players. Only KG had the ability to do that.

Wrong. Plain and simple incorrect. Ronny Turiaf played 29 minutes in that game, Amar'e played 39, and KG played 34.

Now, besides Stoudemire, who was KG gonna cover in those 34 minutes? Jared 'The Jumpshooter" Jefferies? KG was on Amare almost the entire game. I watched it.

And the idea that KG's masterful defense 'denied' Stat the ball down the stretch is just as silly. Melo just wouldn't stop trying to be a hero while the game was close. D'Antoni admitted as much.

[KCattheStripe]

Al jeff is the wrong center to bring against Amar'e and Bogut. Not quick enough to check amar'e and not good enough defensively in the low post to check Bogut. Blazers just flat out own the Jazz in the middle.

[indeedproceed]

Please, I've got 5 players who are all at or near the top of their talent pools at their respective position,

i like harden, but lumping him in with that statement is beyond inaccurate

James Harden is not near the top of the talent pool at SG's? Disagree. He's top 10 in the league right now, and he's not even reached his ceiling. How is that not top-10 in terms of talent?

Maybe you're thinking I'm meaning something I didn't mean.

[Fafnir]

I think KG will contribute more with his team defense and rebounding than limiting Amar'e's scoring and efficiency. I just don't think based on his performance last year that he'll able to do that consistently in a series.

[KCattheStripe]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

[Kane3387]

Al jeff is the wrong center to bring against Amar'e and Bogut. Not quick enough to check amar'e and not good enough defensively in the low post to check Bogut. Blazers just flat out own the Jazz in the middle.

Minute Rotation

PG) Davis 34 min, Crawford 14 min,
SG) Butler 8 min, Crawford 14 min, Thabo 26 min
SF) Pierce 38 min, Butler 10 min,
PF) Garnett 34 min, Jefferson 10 min, Maxiell 3 min
C) Jefferson 20 min, Haywood 28 min

Jefferson is playing 20 mpg at center. Haywood is getting time. Jefferson will bring his offense to the table in the playoffs anyways. I looked up numbers since 2007-08 and Jefferson has held his own against Bogut. He has never played with another defender like KG...

Kevin Love, Perk (pre-KG), and Milsap are nothing close to KG as a help defender.

[dark_lord]

Please, I've got 5 players who are all at or near the top of their talent pools at their respective position,

i like harden, but lumping him in with that statement is beyond inaccurate

James Harden is not near the top of the talent pool at SG's? Disagree. He's top 10 in the league right now, and he's not even reached his ceiling. How is that not top-10 in terms of talent?

Maybe you're thinking I'm meaning something I didn't mean.

he is ur top 10, but not mine.  i think that statement is a stretch to sell ur team, imo

[Kane3387]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

Jefferson rebounds pretty much as good as Bogut. Haywood is not shabby either.

My front court can play with theirs... A SF is part of a front court anyways and they fall WAY off in that field.

[Fafnir]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

Jefferson rebounds pretty much as good as Bogut. Haywood is not shabby either.

This isn't true.

Big Al 16.3 RR at C
Bogut 18.3 RR at C
Haywood 16.5 RR at C

18 is top tier of rebounding Cs
16 is around average

Qualitatively I'll also add that Big Al gets his own boards, but is a terrible team rebounder. His lack of drive and committment to boxing out lets the other team get offensive boards that could have been prevented. The Jazz became a much worse defensive rebounding team with him instead of Boozer, much worse than his personal rebounding stats would lead you to believe.

[Kane3387]

Please, I've got 5 players who are all at or near the top of their talent pools at their respective position,

i like harden, but lumping him in with that statement is beyond inaccurate

James Harden is not near the top of the talent pool at SG's? Disagree. He's top 10 in the league right now, and he's not even reached his ceiling. How is that not top-10 in terms of talent?

Maybe you're thinking I'm meaning something I didn't mean.

he is ur top 10, but not mine.  i think that statement is a stretch to sell ur team, imo

What?! Come on man...

Wade, Bryant, Ray, Joe Johnson, Tyreke, J Rich, Kevin Martin, Stephen Jackson, Ginobli, Igoudala, Eric Gordon, OJ Mayo, Jason Terry, Ellis, Rip... There are others you could argue are better who have been consistently productive as well.

Oh yeah Thabo. He is the starter after all.

[Kane3387]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

Jefferson rebounds pretty much as good as Bogut. Haywood is not shabby either.

This isn't true.

Big Al 16.3 RR at C
Bogut 18.3 RR at C
Haywood 16.5 RR at C

18 is top tier of rebounding Cs
16 is around average

Qualitatively I'll also add that Big Al gets his own boards, but is a terrible team rebounder. His lack of drive and committment to boxing out lets the other team get offensive boards that could have been prevented. The Jazz became a much worse defensive rebounding team with him instead of Boozer, much worse than his personal rebounding stats would lead you to believe.

I guess you assume being around KG won't help for a full season and training camp? That has to be factored in.

[indeedproceed]

Boston lost because injuries made them trade away a piece of their core. The injuries to Rondo and Shaq were also the reason. We played over half the series with a ONE ARMED Pg and still were in every game. This was because Pierce and KG played tough prideful basketball.

To say Pierce and KG's age is why we lost is a lie!  

Kg had one of his best playoff games ever against a far more superior team then yours in Miami. Pierce averaged over 20 a game against Lebron James. Lol you have Delfino...

This is a separate debate..but Boston lost because of a lack in athleticism and tough defense inside. They lacked the explosiveness Rondo brought them when healthy, and the defense Perkins and Shaq brought them..although I think we as a fan collective might have overrated how wonderful Shaq was.

Funny thing is, you're lacking the same stuff. Jefferson isn't any better defensively than Nenad Krstic or Jermaine O'Neal..in fact he's worse than JO to a certitude. And not only is Baron Davis nowhere near as good as Rajon Rondo when healthy, he was shut down by Kyle Lowry the two times they met last year. While Lowry started..for 71 games the past season.

On top of that, you don't have a guy near Ray Allen's caliber as guard to pair next to Pierce. Caron Butler is a good player, but a SG he ain't. He can't defend that. ANd without a solid defensive frontcourt, that deficiency is going to get exposed. Pierce won't have the help, Davis won't have the help, Butler won't have the help, just like with the actual Celtics.

So yeah, it was Rondo's injury and Shaq's injury that exposed a lack of athleticism. But that's what it was.

[Who]

I have James Harden in my top ten SGs too.

[indeedproceed]

I have the Garnett vs Amare matchup in Utah's favour.

I think KG's defense, rebounding and passing exceeds Amare's superior scoring.

I think that's true when Amr'e is playing next to Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, Danillo Gallinari or Shawne Williams. But next to Bogut, I don't thinK KG is that dominant on D or on the boards to make up for Amar'es scoring AND Bogut's D and rebounding.

Jefferson rebounds pretty much as good as Bogut. Haywood is not shabby either.

This isn't true.

Big Al 16.3 RR at C
Bogut 18.3 RR at C
Haywood 16.5 RR at C

18 is top tier of rebounding Cs
16 is around average

Qualitatively I'll also add that Big Al gets his own boards, but is a terrible team rebounder. His lack of drive and committment to boxing out lets the other team get offensive boards that could have been prevented. The Jazz became a much worse defensive rebounding team with him instead of Boozer, much worse than his personal rebounding stats would lead you to believe.

I guess you assume being around KG won't help for a full season and training camp? That has to be factored in.

Worked for Patty O'Bryant, right?