The Nuclear Option: Moving Rondo and Pierce

[birdwatcher]

The OP put some nice ideas out there, but it seems like LA would be giving up a lot. Rondo is worth a good chunk, where he's one of the top what, 3-5 PG in the league and has a great contract. Pierce's contract length alone would probably scare them away, as I feel if Pierce is going anywhere, he'd be going to a place that is key one piece away from a title (not that it would happen, but to a place like Orlando or Portland).

I don't want to see either of them go, personally. I think Pierce will be one of the most productive players in his age group and is still an upgrade over many guys who are younger than him. He's been so durable, I often scoff at people wanting to bring him off the bench. Maybe in another year or two...

[Moranis]

The following assumes similar CBA
------------------------------------
Pierce and Rondo to LAC
Kamen, Gordon, Bledsoe, Aminu, Min #1 to BOS

The Clippers are instant favorites in the West. Rondo-Whoever-Pierce-Griffin-Jordan with Williams-Foye-Gomes of the bench is a sick team.

Boston's 2011-2012 offseason contract commitment: $12 million

That is enough cap to offer three $14 million deals. Chris Paul, Kevin Love and Dwight Howard.

Paul - Gordon - Aminu - Love - Howard

Bledsoe, Bradley and the kids from Purdue do not make the most impressive bench, but add some vet minimum guys AND A TOP 5 DRAFT PICK...

Lets also not rule out the posibility of KG and Ray coming back for one or two more rings on tiny contracts...

  What if you don't sign the three max contract players? then you've traded PP and Rondo for a chance to be the TWolves or the Kings.

  Plus, won't DH and CP get more than $14M? They both make more than that now. They'd probably combine for $33M or so in the first year of their deals.

Well, from a pure value standpoint, I actually think that package is an absolute steal for the C's, even if they don't get those free agents...which is why I don't think the Clippers touch it.

You get a potentially high lottery pick in a loaded draft, a guy who looked like a star in the making (Gordon), a quality center on an expiring contract, and 2 highly thought of prospects.

That is a TON to give up for an aging star and a second tier PG.  

While it certainly would be taking a step back for the C's, that deal would put them in tremendous position to rebuild on the fly, whether it is with Howard and Paul or not.  

But again, even the Clippers would never consider it.  

  If the Clippers think Rondo is a second tier pg then they'd never consider it. If they see him as one of the top pgs in the league like many others do they'd have a different take on the situation. You give up a shot at the title for Kaman, a player who's not as good as Rondo, a couple of decent prospects and a draft pick. it closes our window without giving us a great future.

You forgot cap space, a huge asset in this league. Exhibit A: Miami Heat

  Exhibit B: the 5-6 teams with cap space that *didn't* get LeBron.

well the Knicks got Amare and the Bulls got Boozer.  Not exactly a terrible usage of cap space (though Boozer is looking more debateable).

  So you'd give up another shot at the title for Eric Gordon, a draft pick and a Boozer-level player?

The Celtics are not winning the title next year without making moves. 

  Obviously they'll make some moves. Do you expect them to enter the season with no changes to our current roster?

no, but adding a F.A. or two to a one year contract for the MLE or less is not going to get the Celtics to the title.  They need to make a major move or they will not win a title.

[BballTim]

The following assumes similar CBA
------------------------------------
Pierce and Rondo to LAC
Kamen, Gordon, Bledsoe, Aminu, Min #1 to BOS

The Clippers are instant favorites in the West. Rondo-Whoever-Pierce-Griffin-Jordan with Williams-Foye-Gomes of the bench is a sick team.

Boston's 2011-2012 offseason contract commitment: $12 million

That is enough cap to offer three $14 million deals. Chris Paul, Kevin Love and Dwight Howard.

Paul - Gordon - Aminu - Love - Howard

Bledsoe, Bradley and the kids from Purdue do not make the most impressive bench, but add some vet minimum guys AND A TOP 5 DRAFT PICK...

Lets also not rule out the posibility of KG and Ray coming back for one or two more rings on tiny contracts...

  What if you don't sign the three max contract players? then you've traded PP and Rondo for a chance to be the TWolves or the Kings.

  Plus, won't DH and CP get more than $14M? They both make more than that now. They'd probably combine for $33M or so in the first year of their deals.

Well, from a pure value standpoint, I actually think that package is an absolute steal for the C's, even if they don't get those free agents...which is why I don't think the Clippers touch it.

You get a potentially high lottery pick in a loaded draft, a guy who looked like a star in the making (Gordon), a quality center on an expiring contract, and 2 highly thought of prospects.

That is a TON to give up for an aging star and a second tier PG.  

While it certainly would be taking a step back for the C's, that deal would put them in tremendous position to rebuild on the fly, whether it is with Howard and Paul or not.  

But again, even the Clippers would never consider it.  

  If the Clippers think Rondo is a second tier pg then they'd never consider it. If they see him as one of the top pgs in the league like many others do they'd have a different take on the situation. You give up a shot at the title for Kaman, a player who's not as good as Rondo, a couple of decent prospects and a draft pick. it closes our window without giving us a great future.

You forgot cap space, a huge asset in this league. Exhibit A: Miami Heat

  Exhibit B: the 5-6 teams with cap space that *didn't* get LeBron.

well the Knicks got Amare and the Bulls got Boozer.  Not exactly a terrible usage of cap space (though Boozer is looking more debateable).

  So you'd give up another shot at the title for Eric Gordon, a draft pick and a Boozer-level player?

The Celtics are not winning the title next year without making moves. 

  Obviously they'll make some moves. Do you expect them to enter the season with no changes to our current roster?

no, but adding a F.A. or two to a one year contract for the MLE or less is not going to get the Celtics to the title.  They need to make a major move or they will not win a title.

  Disagree. They were title contenders last year and they're returning the same core.

[Moranis]

The following assumes similar CBA
------------------------------------
Pierce and Rondo to LAC
Kamen, Gordon, Bledsoe, Aminu, Min #1 to BOS

The Clippers are instant favorites in the West. Rondo-Whoever-Pierce-Griffin-Jordan with Williams-Foye-Gomes of the bench is a sick team.

Boston's 2011-2012 offseason contract commitment: $12 million

That is enough cap to offer three $14 million deals. Chris Paul, Kevin Love and Dwight Howard.

Paul - Gordon - Aminu - Love - Howard

Bledsoe, Bradley and the kids from Purdue do not make the most impressive bench, but add some vet minimum guys AND A TOP 5 DRAFT PICK...

Lets also not rule out the posibility of KG and Ray coming back for one or two more rings on tiny contracts...

  What if you don't sign the three max contract players? then you've traded PP and Rondo for a chance to be the TWolves or the Kings.

  Plus, won't DH and CP get more than $14M? They both make more than that now. They'd probably combine for $33M or so in the first year of their deals.

Well, from a pure value standpoint, I actually think that package is an absolute steal for the C's, even if they don't get those free agents...which is why I don't think the Clippers touch it.

You get a potentially high lottery pick in a loaded draft, a guy who looked like a star in the making (Gordon), a quality center on an expiring contract, and 2 highly thought of prospects.

That is a TON to give up for an aging star and a second tier PG.  

While it certainly would be taking a step back for the C's, that deal would put them in tremendous position to rebuild on the fly, whether it is with Howard and Paul or not.  

But again, even the Clippers would never consider it.  

  If the Clippers think Rondo is a second tier pg then they'd never consider it. If they see him as one of the top pgs in the league like many others do they'd have a different take on the situation. You give up a shot at the title for Kaman, a player who's not as good as Rondo, a couple of decent prospects and a draft pick. it closes our window without giving us a great future.

You forgot cap space, a huge asset in this league. Exhibit A: Miami Heat

  Exhibit B: the 5-6 teams with cap space that *didn't* get LeBron.

well the Knicks got Amare and the Bulls got Boozer.  Not exactly a terrible usage of cap space (though Boozer is looking more debateable).

  So you'd give up another shot at the title for Eric Gordon, a draft pick and a Boozer-level player?

The Celtics are not winning the title next year without making moves. 

  Obviously they'll make some moves. Do you expect them to enter the season with no changes to our current roster?

no, but adding a F.A. or two to a one year contract for the MLE or less is not going to get the Celtics to the title.  They need to make a major move or they will not win a title.

  Disagree. They were title contenders last year and they're returning the same core.

The Celtics lost to a younger better team in the second round of the playoffs.  They are not getting by the Heat with the team that they have.  It just isn't going to happen.

[tenn_smoothie]

I think we didn't have a bad Rondo trade idea yesterday, so thank goodness we are back on track today.   We have possibly the best young talent in the league, in Rondo, and one of the best vets in the league, PP, and all folks wanna do is trade them away. 

It's really very perverse. 

Both should be untouchable.  Period.  And if you really wand DH, we may have a better chance of landing him WITH Rondo, arguably the best assist man in the league.

thank you, paul.


has anyone on this board ever played team sports - have you ever heard of team chemistry ?
you don't just throw shiny parts together and automatically have a smooth running machine.

[BballTim]

  Disagree. They were title contenders last year and they're returning the same core.

The Celtics lost to a younger better team in the second round of the playoffs.  They are not getting by the Heat with the team that they have.  It just isn't going to happen.

  They won't get by the Heat next year if Rondo's playing with one arm. Otherwise it's a tossup.

[Moranis]

  Disagree. They were title contenders last year and they're returning the same core.

The Celtics lost to a younger better team in the second round of the playoffs.  They are not getting by the Heat with the team that they have.  It just isn't going to happen.

  They won't get by the Heat next year if Rondo's playing with one arm. Otherwise it's a tossup.

No it isn't.  The Heat are just better.  As evident by the first two games, when Rondo had two arms.  If anything the injury was the spark the team needed to win just one game. 

[BballTim]

  Disagree. They were title contenders last year and they're returning the same core.

The Celtics lost to a younger better team in the second round of the playoffs.  They are not getting by the Heat with the team that they have.  It just isn't going to happen.

  They won't get by the Heat next year if Rondo's playing with one arm. Otherwise it's a tossup.

No it isn't.  The Heat are just better.  As evident by the first two games, when Rondo had two arms.  If anything the injury was the spark the team needed to win just one game. 

  Yes, if the Dallas series showed us anything it's that the Heat are invincible with a 2-1 series lead.

  If Rondo were healthy we'd have gone back to Miami tied 2-2 and they'd have folded like they did a few weeks later.

[CoachBo]

  Disagree. They were title contenders last year and they're returning the same core.

The Celtics lost to a younger better team in the second round of the playoffs.  They are not getting by the Heat with the team that they have.  It just isn't going to happen.

  They won't get by the Heat next year if Rondo's playing with one arm. Otherwise it's a tossup.

No it isn't.  The Heat are just better.  As evident by the first two games, when Rondo had two arms.  If anything the injury was the spark the team needed to win just one game. 

Correct. If it's summer, it must again be time for people to again forget that Rondo's a below average scorer.

[BballTim]

  Disagree. They were title contenders last year and they're returning the same core.

The Celtics lost to a younger better team in the second round of the playoffs.  They are not getting by the Heat with the team that they have.  It just isn't going to happen.

  They won't get by the Heat next year if Rondo's playing with one arm. Otherwise it's a tossup.

No it isn't.  The Heat are just better.  As evident by the first two games, when Rondo had two arms.  If anything the injury was the spark the team needed to win just one game. 

Correct. If it's summer, it must again be time for people to again forget that Rondo's a below average scorer.

  More likely it's time for his detractors to exaggerate his shortcomings or forget about all of the things he does besides scoring to help the Celts win, assuming they noticed in the first place.

[tenn_smoothie]

With a team not emotionally torn by a stupid trade - we have homecourt advantage in that series - we also have a solid starting center who has a very good backup and hopefully a late-addition extra wing to come off the bench who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty.

you add a healthy Rondo to that mix, the Celtics win that series vs Miami - and going ino the ECF vs an exhausted Bulls team and a possible finals vs Dallas, we are even money at that point to win the title.

[Moranis]

 Disagree. They were title contenders last year and they're returning the same core.

The Celtics lost to a younger better team in the second round of the playoffs.  They are not getting by the Heat with the team that they have.  It just isn't going to happen.

  They won't get by the Heat next year if Rondo's playing with one arm. Otherwise it's a tossup.

No it isn't.  The Heat are just better.  As evident by the first two games, when Rondo had two arms.  If anything the injury was the spark the team needed to win just one game.  

  Yes, if the Dallas series showed us anything it's that the Heat are invincible with a 2-1 series lead.

  If Rondo were healthy we'd have gone back to Miami tied 2-2 and they'd have folded like they did a few weeks later.

Who said anything about Dallas?  Miami is a better team then Boston and just matches up well with them.  The only way the Celtics (with just minor moves) make the finals next year is if someone else beats the Heat which is highly unlikely.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to make excuses, but Rondo's arm isn't the reason the Celtics lost.  The Heat are just better and the Heat are going to be significantly better the next time the NBA takes the floor.  It is going to add pieces and they are going to figure out how to play together.  Last year was the Celtics only shot at better the Heat with the current core, and they lost in 5.  The core's time for winning a title is done. 

[BballTim]

 Disagree. They were title contenders last year and they're returning the same core.

The Celtics lost to a younger better team in the second round of the playoffs.  They are not getting by the Heat with the team that they have.  It just isn't going to happen.

  They won't get by the Heat next year if Rondo's playing with one arm. Otherwise it's a tossup.

No it isn't.  The Heat are just better.  As evident by the first two games, when Rondo had two arms.  If anything the injury was the spark the team needed to win just one game.  

  Yes, if the Dallas series showed us anything it's that the Heat are invincible with a 2-1 series lead.

  If Rondo were healthy we'd have gone back to Miami tied 2-2 and they'd have folded like they did a few weeks later.

Who said anything about Dallas?  Miami is a better team then Boston and just matches up well with them.  The only way the Celtics (with just minor moves) make the finals next year is if someone else beats the Heat which is highly unlikely.

  Yes, that must be why we handled them three times during the season and were a missed layup away from being 2-2 in the playoffs. *Clearly* that shows what an impossible task beating Miami will be.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to make excuses, but Rondo's arm isn't the reason the Celtics lost.  The Heat are just better and the Heat are going to be significantly better the next time the NBA takes the floor.  It is going to add pieces and they are going to figure out how to play together.  Last year was the Celtics only shot at better the Heat with the current core, and they lost in 5.  The core's time for winning a title is done. 

  Haha. Some people trip over themselves in their rush to give up on the Celts as early as possible. I've been seeing it every summer since KG hurt his knee, aka "when the Celts ceased to be contenders". I guess it's a method of somehow inoculating from having any hopes dashed if they don't win the title. Sooner or later your crowd will be right, but after enough misses to have a stopped clock feel to it.

  There's also no guarantee that the Heat will get better, and chances are very low that they'll be "significantly better". James and Wade are both ball dominant players and them and Bosh are the majority of the Heat offense. That will be the same no matter who they bring in.

  Changing the 4th or 5th best player on your team when he's going to play a small role on offense rarely leads to significant improvement. That's assuming that they bring in better players than Mike Miller, who was seen as a great find for them, and asusuming that whoever they bring in adjusts well to being an afterthought on offense. People talk about bringing in a good point guard, I guess so they can have someone better than Bibby stand around and watch Dwayne and LeBron run the offense?

  And it's not a matter of figuring out how to play together, it's a matter of players who don't have skill sets that complement each other playing together. Wade or James need to change the way they play basketball for them to "figure it out" and that's not happening.

[Moranis]

Haha. Some people trip over themselves in their rush to give up on the Celts as early as possible. I've been seeing it every summer since KG hurt his knee, aka "when the Celts ceased to be contenders". I guess it's a method of somehow inoculating from having any hopes dashed if they don't win the title. Sooner or later your crowd will be right, but after enough misses to have a stopped clock feel to it.

  There's also no guarantee that the Heat will get better, and chances are very low that they'll be "significantly better". James and Wade are both ball dominant players and them and Bosh are the majority of the Heat offense. That will be the same no matter who they bring in.

  Changing the 4th or 5th best player on your team when he's going to play a small role on offense rarely leads to significant improvement. That's assuming that they bring in better players than Mike Miller, who was seen as a great find for them, and asusuming that whoever they bring in adjusts well to being an afterthought on offense. People talk about bringing in a good point guard, I guess so they can have someone better than Bibby stand around and watch Dwayne and LeBron run the offense?

  And it's not a matter of figuring out how to play together, it's a matter of players who don't have skill sets that complement each other playing together. Wade or James need to change the way they play basketball for them to "figure it out" and that's not happening.

The Celtics were given a 3 or 4 year window when they were brought together for a reason.  Next year is year 5.  You don't get better as you age, you get older.  The Celtics core will not be able to play enough minutes during the season or during the playoffs to beat a team comprised of better players in their prime.  The C's just wore down against the Heat in every single game except game 3 (and game 1 which was a blow out).  In the games that mattered, the Heat dominated the 4th quarter and OT.  That just isn't going to get better next year.

I fully expect the Heat to add defensive minded role players at both center and PG.  I expect Dalembert to end up there.  Not sure about the PG, but perhaps they just turn it over to Chalmers who is better then Bibby.  Let's also not forget that Haslem and Miller played a combined 31 minutes or so in the 5 games (Haslem played exactly 2:45).  Even just having those two guys remotely healthy and the Heat get a lot better.  We Celtic fans only focus on the Rondo, Shaq, and JO injuries, but the Heat also got virtually nothing from their 4th and 5th best players. 

The Heat are just better then the Celtics and they will be next year as well (barring an injury to Lebron or Wade).

[paulcowens]

I think we didn't have a bad Rondo trade idea yesterday, so thank goodness we are back on track today.   We have possibly the best young talent in the league, in Rondo, and one of the best vets in the league, PP, and all folks wanna do is trade them away. 

It's really very perverse. 

Both should be untouchable.  Period.  And if you really wand DH, we may have a better chance of landing him WITH Rondo, arguably the best assist man in the league.

thank you, paul.


has anyone on this board ever played team sports - have you ever heard of team chemistry ?
you don't just throw shiny parts together and automatically have a smooth running machine.

Thankyou, man.  That's so well said.


Again today Rondo Trade threads seem to be dominating the forum.   I just can't get over it.   What other team, coming off yet another strong season, has a fandom that obsesses endlessly about trading the team's best player?   I mean, I can't say I survey other fandoms on a regular basis, but I just can't believe that this is the norm.    To me, it's truly weird.  It's like Boston Fans are in the Twilight Zone.    Their answer to the question 'how do we make our team better next year' is 'trade our best  player!'.

The perversity of this is just unfathomable, especially when one considers that most of the anxiety people feel about this team has to do with its AGE.  So that means our best move is to trade our best YOUNG player?   !!

Then again, this is the same fandom where it's now conventional wisdom that The Heat beat us because they are just plain better.  Ok, wait.  Do any of you folks who say this remember The Trade?  Do you think that might possibly have had something to do with it, that it might have wrecked our team cohesion, especially on defense, making our age and relative lack of athleticism FAR MORE APPARENT?

And do you think having the other team take out our best player might have had something to do with them beating us?   Criminy, don't you folks get it that Wade and Lebron clearly saw Rondo as the key to the Cs chances?

What folks need to do, in my opinion is 1) stop panicking and 2) stop throwing Rondo to the wolves.  We are lucky to have Rondo.  We need to build the future of the team around him.