KG's career = overrated not a franchise player not a true #1 deal with it?

[wdleehi]

He almost won championship with scrubs like Sprewell,Cassell, and Olawakandi. KG was a franchise player, still great, but aging like the rest of his era

Had that Twolves team not been injury plagued in the post season, they could've won it all. Add in the LA Super Friends team of Payton,Kobe,Malone and Shaq. Pistons won it all, but healthy Twolves team would've won with KG leading the way

Spree and Cassell were not scrubs.


Spree was likely the best player that got the Knicks to the title series. 

But Spree on the Twolves was not as good as Ray Allen in 08. Nor was Cassell as good as Pierce at his own position. Both were good players, but look where KG took that team. Remember the bench? : Hoidberg, Troy Hudson, Szerbiak, Blount....seriously . KG is a franchise player and made his mark accordingly.   And when put with a couple of stars, won a ring. What'd Lebron do again with 2 stars in their prime?

I agree.


But a healthy Spree and Cassell would have been enough for KG to win a title. 

[GreenFaith1819]

He almost won championship with scrubs like Sprewell,Cassell, and Olawakandi. KG was a franchise player, still great, but aging like the rest of his era

Had that Twolves team not been injury plagued in the post season, they could've won it all. Add in the LA Super Friends team of Payton,Kobe,Malone and Shaq. Pistons won it all, but healthy Twolves team would've won with KG leading the way

Spree and Cassell were not scrubs.


Spree was likely the best player that got the Knicks to the title series. 

But Spree on the Twolves was not as good as Ray Allen in 08. Nor was Cassell as good as Pierce at his own position. Both were good players, but look where KG took that team. Remember the bench? : Hoidberg, Troy Hudson, Szerbiak, Blount....seriously . KG is a franchise player and made his mark accordingly.   And when put with a couple of stars, won a ring. What'd Lebron do again with 2 stars in their prime?

I agree.


But a healthy Spree and Cassell would have been enough for KG to win a title. 

But the Spree that landed in Minny was not Prime Spree.

[droopdog7]

FWIW, he was literally a 20/10 player in the playoffs with a block a game.

I saw that minutes after I typed my post. Hence the edit. But, I'm sure you watched the playoffs as much as I did..and those games where you were praying that KG would take over..rarely manifested. Stats be darned (ha), I know what I saw.

KG frequently takes over. It's just more often on the defensive end. If you score 20 and neutralize your guy with your D, that's better than you scoring 30 and him scoring 20. And, yeah, as others have pointed, KG is a 20/10 guy in the postseason. Couple that with his defense, and you have a franchise guy right there.

Well its 2am, and Im about to go to sleep so I'm not going to look over the games from 2008 to contradict that..but allow me to say this: Pierce won the 2008 Finals MVP. Hence, he was Boston's Most Valuable Player in the Finals. The original comment was that KG was not a legit franchise #1. The best way to define that is with a banner, and Pierce has been the acknowledged leader in those playoffs, so it wasn't KG.

Maybe KG could've been the #1 on another team, with another cast, but he wasnt with Boston in 08.

Pierce won a media vote for Finals MVP, but Ray Allen and KG easily could have won it. Pierce won it largely because he was the career Celtic. Each of the big three had two really good games, two iffy games, and two bad games.

If you expanded the award to playoff MVP it would have been KG without a doubt.

Way late to this conversation but PP largely won the MVP because he was being guarded by Vladmir Radmonivic and Luke Walton.

The premise of this thread is absurd.

[wdleehi]

He almost won championship with scrubs like Sprewell,Cassell, and Olawakandi. KG was a franchise player, still great, but aging like the rest of his era

Had that Twolves team not been injury plagued in the post season, they could've won it all. Add in the LA Super Friends team of Payton,Kobe,Malone and Shaq. Pistons won it all, but healthy Twolves team would've won with KG leading the way

Spree and Cassell were not scrubs.


Spree was likely the best player that got the Knicks to the title series. 

But Spree on the Twolves was not as good as Ray Allen in 08. Nor was Cassell as good as Pierce at his own position. Both were good players, but look where KG took that team. Remember the bench? : Hoidberg, Troy Hudson, Szerbiak, Blount....seriously . KG is a franchise player and made his mark accordingly.   And when put with a couple of stars, won a ring. What'd Lebron do again with 2 stars in their prime?

I agree.


But a healthy Spree and Cassell would have been enough for KG to win a title. 

But the Spree that landed in Minny was not Prime Spree.

He averaged 17 as the third option in the regular season and it jumped up to 20 points a game in the playoffs. 


That was more then good enough.

[GreenFaith1819]

He almost won championship with scrubs like Sprewell,Cassell, and Olawakandi. KG was a franchise player, still great, but aging like the rest of his era

Had that Twolves team not been injury plagued in the post season, they could've won it all. Add in the LA Super Friends team of Payton,Kobe,Malone and Shaq. Pistons won it all, but healthy Twolves team would've won with KG leading the way

Spree and Cassell were not scrubs.


Spree was likely the best player that got the Knicks to the title series. 

But Spree on the Twolves was not as good as Ray Allen in 08. Nor was Cassell as good as Pierce at his own position. Both were good players, but look where KG took that team. Remember the bench? : Hoidberg, Troy Hudson, Szerbiak, Blount....seriously . KG is a franchise player and made his mark accordingly.   And when put with a couple of stars, won a ring. What'd Lebron do again with 2 stars in their prime?

I agree.


But a healthy Spree and Cassell would have been enough for KG to win a title. 

But the Spree that landed in Minny was not Prime Spree.

He averaged 17 as the third option in the regular season and it jumped up to 20 points a game in the playoffs. 


That was more then good enough.

Yeah....Spree and Sam, as well as Wally - were very good.

But....David Robinson?

The Admiral?

[GreenFaith1819]

At the end of the day, my spin on it is that yes - Tim Duncan was great - and he will remain at the top of my list of All-Time Great PFs, with KG not far behind at all.

But Teammate to Teammate who will have the most HOFers?

David Robinson is already in..Ginobili will surely get in, as will Parker, eventually?

KG? Not sure if Spree or Sam will get in.

[Chris]

At the end of the day, my spin on it is that yes - Tim Duncan was great - and he will remain at the top of my list of All-Time Great PFs, with KG not far behind at all.

But Teammate to Teammate who will have the most HOFers?

David Robinson is already in..Ginobili will surely get in, as will Parker, eventually?

KG? Not sure if Spree or Sam will get in.

I don't think Ginobili or Parker are anywhere near hall of famers.  Unless they win a lot more in the next few years anyways...

[GreenFaith1819]

At the end of the day, my spin on it is that yes - Tim Duncan was great - and he will remain at the top of my list of All-Time Great PFs, with KG not far behind at all.

But Teammate to Teammate who will have the most HOFers?

David Robinson is already in..Ginobili will surely get in, as will Parker, eventually?

KG? Not sure if Spree or Sam will get in.

I don't think Ginobili or Parker are anywhere near hall of famers.  Unless they win a lot more in the next few years anyways...

Most definitely Manu..he's very popular with his Argentinan Basketball team overseas. And I think Parker will have a small case, too.

Manu's 3 rings, 6th man award, several all-star games as well as a few All-NBA teams gets him in for sure. But the biggest clincher for him in the HOF will be Argentina.

EDIT: - I am mostly focused on the earlier part of KG's career. I'm sure that Ray and Paul will get into the HOF as well, with Rondo not far behind.

[drza44]

When the Spurs won their first title TD was the main guy for the Spurs down the stretch in close games. He made a ton of key plays and was a go-to guy when they needed hoops.

Similarly, when the Spurs won their first title KG was the main guy for the Celtics down the stretch in close games.  He made a ton of key plays and was a go-to guy when they needed hoops.

I disagree with this.  Pierce was much more the go-to guy for the C's. 

  If you look at their "clutch" scoring in those playoffs from 82games, PP scored a total of 27 points in those late game situations compared to 24 for KG (and 20 for Ray). Pretty close all around.

RE: The "closer" for the 2008 Celtics. You can take it further, though.  If you look closely at the 82games.com crunch-time data, you can see HOW those points were scored.  To whit, in crunchtime during the 2007-08 playoffs:

KG made 9 of 21 shots, drew 3 shooting fouls, and was fouled twice intentionally at the end of close games.  He also had 0 assists and 1 turnover total in those minutes.

Ray made 5 of 15 shots, drew 2 shooting fouls, and was fouled twice intentionally at the end of close games.  He also had 3 assists and 1 TO.

Pierce made 1 of 14 shots, drew 3 shooting fouls, and was fouled intentionally 9 times at the end of close games.  He also had 4 assists and 6 TOs.

So while Pierce, to his credit, did a great job making those intentional foul shots to close the game, you'd be missing the forest for the trees to think he was the main scorer at crunch time in those playoffs.  You can make the case that he was more of the offense initiator than KG, and I can buy that, but when the Celtics actually went to Pierce to shoot at crunch time, he made only 1 out of his 14 shots.  If you include the 3 times he got fouled, Pierce generated a bucket 4 times in 17 attempts.  Meanwhile, if you include the times he drew fouls, Garnett generated a bucket 12 times in 24 attempts at crunchtime. 

I don't care how much people dislike stats, this is a case where it's an open-and-shut case.  When the 2007-08 Celtics needed points in crunchtime during their playoff championship run, Garnett was who they went to most often to score and he was also the one that delivered much more consistently.  If there were a "closer" for the 2007-08 championship Celtics, it was Garnett or it was nobody.

[Chris]

When the Spurs won their first title TD was the main guy for the Spurs down the stretch in close games. He made a ton of key plays and was a go-to guy when they needed hoops.

Similarly, when the Spurs won their first title KG was the main guy for the Celtics down the stretch in close games.  He made a ton of key plays and was a go-to guy when they needed hoops.

I disagree with this.  Pierce was much more the go-to guy for the C's. 

  If you look at their "clutch" scoring in those playoffs from 82games, PP scored a total of 27 points in those late game situations compared to 24 for KG (and 20 for Ray). Pretty close all around.

RE: The "closer" for the 2008 Celtics. You can take it further, though.  If you look closely at the 82games.com crunch-time data, you can see HOW those points were scored.  To whit, in crunchtime during the 2007-08 playoffs:

KG made 9 of 21 shots, drew 3 shooting fouls, and was fouled twice intentionally at the end of close games.  He also had 0 assists and 1 turnover total in those minutes.

Ray made 5 of 15 shots, drew 2 shooting fouls, and was fouled twice intentionally at the end of close games.  He also had 3 assists and 1 TO.

Pierce made 1 of 14 shots, drew 3 shooting fouls, and was fouled intentionally 9 times at the end of close games.  He also had 4 assists and 6 TOs.

So while Pierce, to his credit, did a great job making those intentional foul shots to close the game, you'd be missing the forest for the trees to think he was the main scorer at crunch time in those playoffs.  You can make the case that he was more of the offense initiator than KG, and I can buy that, but when the Celtics actually went to Pierce to shoot at crunch time, he made only 1 out of his 14 shots.  If you include the 3 times he got fouled, Pierce generated a bucket 4 times in 17 attempts.  Meanwhile, if you include the times he drew fouls, Garnett generated a bucket 12 times in 24 attempts at crunchtime. 

I don't care how much people dislike stats, this is a case where it's an open-and-shut case.  When the 2007-08 Celtics needed points in crunchtime during their playoff championship run, Garnett was who they went to most often to score and he was also the one that delivered much more consistently.  If there were a "closer" for the 2007-08 championship Celtics, it was Garnett or it was nobody.

Can you link the stats?

[CelticG1]

Didn't Doc basically say that year that whenever they needed a bucket late in the game their go to was feeding KG down low?

Pierce is known for being a crunch time player and I find it very hard to believe that people aren't just ASSUMING that it was Pierce who led the team in offense and crunch time during those playoffs.

The facts say that KG led the team in 4th quarter scoring. I guess you can try and spin it however you want and say "well he scored all his points in the first half of the 4th quarter" whatever  it's just ridiculous.

It appears people are trained to believe that KG isn't clutch and wasn't a big time scorer or NUmber 1 on this team. For people that are fans of the Celtics and KG what were you watching in 08? What have you been watching since? KG has been pretty dominant his entire career here and his first couple years he was pretty dominant on offense. He's hit game winners and several big, big shots not to mention the defense

[drza44]

When the Spurs won their first title TD was the main guy for the Spurs down the stretch in close games. He made a ton of key plays and was a go-to guy when they needed hoops.

Similarly, when the Spurs won their first title KG was the main guy for the Celtics down the stretch in close games.  He made a ton of key plays and was a go-to guy when they needed hoops.

I disagree with this.  Pierce was much more the go-to guy for the C's.  

  If you look at their "clutch" scoring in those playoffs from 82games, PP scored a total of 27 points in those late game situations compared to 24 for KG (and 20 for Ray). Pretty close all around.

RE: The "closer" for the 2008 Celtics. You can take it further, though.  If you look closely at the 82games.com crunch-time data, you can see HOW those points were scored.  To whit, in crunchtime during the 2007-08 playoffs:

KG made 9 of 21 shots, drew 3 shooting fouls, and was fouled twice intentionally at the end of close games.  He also had 0 assists and 1 turnover total in those minutes.

Ray made 5 of 15 shots, drew 2 shooting fouls, and was fouled twice intentionally at the end of close games.  He also had 3 assists and 1 TO.

Pierce made 1 of 14 shots, drew 3 shooting fouls, and was fouled intentionally 9 times at the end of close games.  He also had 4 assists and 6 TOs.

So while Pierce, to his credit, did a great job making those intentional foul shots to close the game, you'd be missing the forest for the trees to think he was the main scorer at crunch time in those playoffs.  You can make the case that he was more of the offense initiator than KG, and I can buy that, but when the Celtics actually went to Pierce to shoot at crunch time, he made only 1 out of his 14 shots.  If you include the 3 times he got fouled, Pierce generated a bucket 4 times in 17 attempts.  Meanwhile, if you include the times he drew fouls, Garnett generated a bucket 12 times in 24 attempts at crunchtime.  

I don't care how much people dislike stats, this is a case where it's an open-and-shut case.  When the 2007-08 Celtics needed points in crunchtime during their playoff championship run, Garnett was who they went to most often to score and he was also the one that delivered much more consistently.  If there were a "closer" for the 2007-08 championship Celtics, it was Garnett or it was nobody.

Can you link the stats?

I'll link to their 82games pages, but you'd have to do a bit of math from there to get the exact numbers I posted.  But I can describe how I did it.  First, here are the "clutch" player cards for:

KG - http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/07BOS9E.HTM
Pierce - http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/07BOS6E.HTM
Ray - http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/07BOS5E.HTM

If you follow those links you'll find all the info you need to get the numbers I did, but it's not completely straight-forward because 82games.com calculated their main stats per-48 minutes without telling us exactly how many crunch minutes were played.  But, here are some of the things you can look at to figure out the exact breakdown:

1) Under the "Free throw shooting and foul drawing" category, they list the actual total values for free throws made, free throws attempted, field goals attempted (including the times a player was fouled when shooting), and 'fouled' which counts how many times the player was fouled while shooting.

2) Similarly, in the "Passing Stats", "Rebounding", "Shot-blocking" and "Turnovers" sub-categories they also give the actual total numbers in there for assists, defensive rebounds, offensive rebounds, shots blocked, and TOs.

3) Once you have the total #s, the per-48 #s and the percentages, all it takes is some algebra to determine any info that I listed that isn't readily spelled out on the page.  I just made an Excel spreadsheet to do the math for me.  

[barefacedmonk]

To all the KG haters:

[housecall]

Didn't Doc basically say that year that whenever they needed a bucket late in the game their go to was feeding KG down low?

Pierce is known for being a crunch time player and I find it very hard to believe that people aren't just ASSUMING that it was Pierce who led the team in offense and crunch time during those playoffs.

The facts say that KG led the team in 4th quarter scoring. I guess you can try and spin it however you want and say "well he scored all his points in the first half of the 4th quarter" whatever  it's just ridiculous.

It appears people are trained to believe that KG isn't clutch and wasn't a big time scorer or NUmber 1 on this team. For people that are fans of the Celtics and KG what were you watching in 08? What have you been watching since? KG has been pretty dominant his entire career here and his first couple years he was pretty dominant on offense. He's hit game winners and several big, big shots not to mention the defense

TP,this says it all...imo

[Roy H.]

Pierce made 1 of 14 shots, drew 3 shooting fouls, and was fouled intentionally 9 times at the end of close games.

Just to quibble, but not all non-shooting fouls are intentional fouls at the end of games.  If a guy's attacking the defense and his team is in the bonus, that's a drawn foul, without necessarily being a shot attempt.