KG's career = overrated not a franchise player not a true #1 deal with it?

[CelticG1]

KG was an absolute beast in the 08 playoffs. He was extremely consistent through each round and you could definitely argue that he deserved that MVP finals trophy (same with Ray). He also hit basically a game winning lay up on a drive in game 1 or 2 of the Cavs series for those people that say he doesn't hit the big shot

[Fafnir]

Define #1. #1 offensive option? No. Best player? He was in 08.

Not in the playoffs. If you wanna talk about defensive impact, most pivotal player in changing a mindset, sure...but offense has to work in there somewhere, and he was not spectacular in 08.

EDIT: Remember how big a deal it was when he scored 20 pts in a game? KG was off in 08 during the playoffs.

(waiting for statistical argument he vaguely remembers to rain on his head)

KG was our leading scorer in the 07-08 playoffs, he was also our leading fourth quarter scorer. He also had our highest usage percentage.

He was our best player and our number one offensive option, if you want to call Paul Pierce option 1b. (as he scored only slightly less than KG) I'm okay with that.

But that's just offense, defensive he was the best player on the Celtics by far in the 07-08 playoffs both in help and man to man defense. He was also the best rebounder the Celtics had in the playoffs.

[Fafnir]

FWIW, he was literally a 20/10 player in the playoffs with a block a game.

I saw that minutes after I typed my post. Hence the edit. But, I'm sure you watched the playoffs as much as I did..and those games where you were praying that KG would take over..rarely manifested. Stats be darned (ha), I know what I saw.

KG frequently takes over. It's just more often on the defensive end. If you score 20 and neutralize your guy with your D, that's better than you scoring 30 and him scoring 20. And, yeah, as others have pointed, KG is a 20/10 guy in the postseason. Couple that with his defense, and you have a franchise guy right there.

Well its 2am, and Im about to go to sleep so I'm not going to look over the games from 2008 to contradict that..but allow me to say this: Pierce won the 2008 Finals MVP. Hence, he was Boston's Most Valuable Player in the Finals. The original comment was that KG was not a legit franchise #1. The best way to define that is with a banner, and Pierce has been the acknowledged leader in those playoffs, so it wasn't KG.

Maybe KG could've been the #1 on another team, with another cast, but he wasnt with Boston in 08.

Pierce won a media vote for Finals MVP, but Ray Allen and KG easily could have won it. Pierce won it largely because he was the career Celtic. Each of the big three had two really good games, two iffy games, and two bad games.

If you expanded the award to playoff MVP it would have been KG without a doubt.

[wdleehi]

KG was the number 1 player on the final's team.

[Spilling Green Dye]

It sounds like your friend values a high-volume shooter like Carmelo or Iverson as "#1 franchise guys". 

The fact remains that Garnett has been a #1 franchise guy for just about his entire career b/c he does all things very well, and he does them efficiently.  20/10 playoff guys is nothing to be scoffed at.  Few guys can pull that off.  Compound that with his ability to pass, and shut down not only opposing players but teams (via team defense), and you have a much better #1 franchise guy than a 1-dimensional Carmelo.

By just about every metric available, KG should have been the finals MVP in '08.  The only true edge Paul Pierce had was that Paul had been with the Celtics his entire career, and so he got the award. 

[GreenFaith1819]

This is an interesting debate and to not re-hash what's already been posted, I'd approach the fan from this angle:

Could Minnesota have advanced as far without KG as with him?

Could - say - Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell and "Player Z" have taken Minny to the WCFs and lost (unfortunately) to a Prime LA squad with Shaq and Kobe?

As great as KG, Ray Allen and Paul Pierce were in 07-08 and in the Finals that year - could they have brought home Banner 17 without KG?

I think for the answer to my last question, look no further than 08-09 playoffs, and to considerable extent look at how much a hobbled KG affected us vs LA in 09-10 Finals. He was not able to keep Gasol off the boards. That game 7 loss has been discussed a lot as far as the reasons for our loss, but I'd point to KG's lack of lift more than anything else in that series.

KG was so gifted offensively in Minny...he did in fact take over a few games, but I rarely saw the headlines where - say - he'd go off for like 50 pts. I think his career high is 44?

That was never him to take over games offensively. He did it in Minny and in Boston a few games, but that's just not him.

His highest season average was a little over 24 pts? But he also averaged roughly 12 rebs in Minny with almost 5 assists, too. And the blocks and steals were solid, too.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

But anyway to me he certainly isn't over-rated now or in Sota. To me he is a franchise player. The unfortunate thing is that he has made most of his career off of the defensive end, which we all know there is no glory in defense.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If6gb8qLgMY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqbUmBxzTKk

That last clip was a steal vs the Magic's starting guard, no less.

Slightly off-topic - if/when Lebron learns to play defense like - say KG - then he will be well on the way to achieving that next step.

 

[Moranis]

I've had this discussion a lot in recent months, and in fact have been a strong proponent that KG is not a #1 guy (I made this exact statement earlier this week in the Dirk thread).  KG is an all time great player, but he is not a player that could carry a team.  He is like Scottie Pippen.  Solid all around offensive game, excellent rebounder, all time great defender (both man and help).  There is a reason KG never had much success in Minnesota while Lebron and even Iverson took much weaker teams much further.  Those guys carried their teams.  They had those monster 45 point games and scored 15 straight points when they needed to.  That is not KG's game.  KG just doesn't have that in him.  If you have that sort of player (like Pierce) then KG is the best ever #2 to have, but KG has always needed that guy that could be a killer (Spreewell, Pierce) to have real success when it mattered most.

[wdleehi]

I've had this discussion a lot in recent months, and in fact have been a strong proponent that KG is not a #1 guy (I made this exact statement earlier this week in the Dirk thread).  KG is an all time great player, but he is not a player that could carry a team.  He is like Scottie Pippen.  Solid all around offensive game, excellent rebounder, all time great defender (both man and help).  There is a reason KG never had much success in Minnesota while Lebron and even Iverson took much weaker teams much further.  Those guys carried their teams.  They had those monster 45 point games and scored 15 straight points when they needed to.  That is not KG's game.  KG just doesn't have that in him.  If you have that sort of player (like Pierce) then KG is the best ever #2 to have, but KG has always needed that guy that could be a killer (Spreewell, Pierce) to have real success when it mattered most.

He couldn't get past the same teams that beat AI and Lebron in the Finals. 


There were no Lakers or Spurs in the East until Boston in 2008. 

AI's team had a cake walk for an NBA playoff run until they reached the Finals. 

[Roy H.]

KG was our leading scorer, leading 4th quarter scorer, and was #2 among rotation players in FG% during the 2008 playoffs.  I don't understand the argument that KG can't be a lead scorer on a title team; he already was once.

[Roy H.]

Define #1. #1 offensive option? No. Best player? He was in 08.

Not in the playoffs. If you wanna talk about defensive impact, most pivotal player in changing a mindset, sure...but offense has to work in there somewhere, and he was not spectacular in 08.

EDIT: Remember how big a deal it was when he scored 20 pts in a game? KG was off in 08 during the playoffs.

(waiting for statistical argument he vaguely remembers to rain on his head)

KG was our leading scorer in the 07-08 playoffs, he was also our leading fourth quarter scorer. He also had our highest usage percentage.

He was our best player and our number one offensive option, if you want to call Paul Pierce option 1b. (as he scored only slightly less than KG) I'm okay with that.

But that's just offense, defensive he was the best player on the Celtics by far in the 07-08 playoffs both in help and man to man defense. He was also the best rebounder the Celtics had in the playoffs.

Co-sign.  I'm not sure where this urban myth developed that KG couldn't score in 2008.  He was our best offensive player in the 2008 playoffs (and on a per-minute basis, was our best offensive player during the regular season, as well).

[PortCelt]

I've had this discussion a lot in recent months, and in fact have been a strong proponent that KG is not a #1 guy (I made this exact statement earlier this week in the Dirk thread).  KG is an all time great player, but he is not a player that could carry a team.  He is like Scottie Pippen.  Solid all around offensive game, excellent rebounder, all time great defender (both man and help).  There is a reason KG never had much success in Minnesota while Lebron and even Iverson took much weaker teams much further.  Those guys carried their teams.  They had those monster 45 point games and scored 15 straight points when they needed to.  That is not KG's game.  KG just doesn't have that in him.  If you have that sort of player (like Pierce) then KG is the best ever #2 to have, but KG has always needed that guy that could be a killer (Spreewell, Pierce) to have real success when it mattered most.

And a lot of why we didn't see him consistently carry the team is because of his unselfishness and commitment to Ray and PP. He probably learned the art of deferring in Minnesota. After all he had to share the rock with Starbury, Wally, and Spre. He acts more like a complementary player, but he is a #1 guy and does play with an edge that we're not seeing in Lebron.

Take him away and the defense suffers greatly. Opposing teams must pay attention to him if not double him. The true meaning of an all time great is one who makes  his teammates better. Bird did it, so did Magic, and Jordan. KG might not have been as effective in terms of championships but there's no question on his imprint. He's an all time great.

[jambr380]

This seems like a ridiculous argument to have. He was one of the best players in the NBA for over a decade, won an MVP award, and his nickname was 'The Franchise'. I know that last one doesn't really matter, but just adds to the obvious.

It's almost like some people didn't know that KG existed before he came to the Celtics. Obviously he has been solid here (and amazing in the 07-08 playoffs), but he was an absolute superstar for years in Minny. The KG vs Duncan debate always comes up and there is no doubt in anyone's mind that Duncan is a #1.

[OsirusCeltics]

Same can be said for Tim Duncan
If the criticism is on KG, Duncan should get the same

[wdleehi]

Same can be said for Tim Duncan
If the criticism is on KG, Duncan should get the same

Why? 


4 titles.  3 final's MVPs.   

[GreenEnvy]

Define #1. #1 offensive option? No. Best player? He was in 08.

Not in the playoffs. If you wanna talk about defensive impact, most pivotal player in changing a mindset, sure...but offense has to work in there somewhere, and he was not spectacular in 08.

EDIT: Remember how big a deal it was when he scored 20 pts in a game? KG was off in 08 during the playoffs.

(waiting for statistical argument he vaguely remembers to rain on his head)

Actually, KG was the C's leading scorer in the playoffs. KG 20.4 PPG, Pierce 19.7 PPG, Ray 15.6 PPG.

I never had a problem with Pierce winning Finals MVP, because I think his work on both ends of the floor against Kobe was impressive.

But KG throughout the entire playoffs was a double-double machine and anchored the defense. The key reason we didn't win last year was because of rebounding, and he was putting in work on the glass in the 2008 Playoffs. He averaged 10.5 RPG.

He scored over 20 in half the games that playoffs, and over 24 in nine of them. He took over G5 against Detroit that would have put us in a 3-2 hole if we lost going back to Detroit.



It's a true shame KG never got a halfway decent team around him in Minny during his prime. He never had anywhere near the right collection of management, coaching, or players to give him any help.