'98 draft - Paul or Dirk?

[CelticG1]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances. 

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

Does it matter that the Mavs underperformed in several of those playoffs?

Also is there a direct correlation between matchups during the regular season and playoffs?

I can't believe we are talking about the Mavs pretty much being a dynasty in the east when they have pretty much been the laughing stock of the playoffs this past decade up until now

1 trip to the Finals, 1 trip to the Western Conference Finals, 4 second round losses, 4 first round losses.

10 straight 50-win seasons. Zero times missing the playoffs in those 10 years.

THose 4 first round losses are tough to swallow, but really only the losses to Golden State and New Orleans stand out to me. Everyone knew who the Mavs were than, and they weren't as good as those Kings, or last season's Spurs (although that was close, and went 6 games).

I think laughingstock is pretty over the top.

Ok I'll soften it up....how about the most disappointing playoff team in the last decade. Besides this year which seems to be an anomaly they were always a top seed that was likely to lose in the playoffs.

I mean were you really going to be surprised if they lost to the Blazers this year?

They are a great regular season team but wow they underperformed in the playoffs

Isn't it possible that their record is almost solely a result of Dirk.  I mean look at Cleveland.  Now I will give you that Dallas has had better teams then Cleveland, but not by that much (especially the recent cleveland teams).  Perhaps Dirk really is that good that he can make an average team have an over inflated record, and thus the seemingly under performing in the playoffs is merely a result of the over performing in the regular season.  

I mean have you actually looked at the roster of the team that won 67 games, there is no way they should have even won 55 with that roster.  Dirk, Josh Howard, Jason Terry, an old Jerry Stackhouse, a very young Devin Harris, with Erick Dampier, Devean George, Desagna Diop, and Greg Buckner essentially comprising the rotation.  That entire team is incredibly flawed, especially defensively, and never should have been anywhere near 67 wins, which is why Dirk won the MVP.  

Maybe they shouldn't have won 67 games but to lose in the first round is an embarrassment no matter how you slice it. And that team was really good. You have Dirk and Terry in their prime and Howard was pretty much a budding superstar which of course everyone forgets. A "very young" Devin Harris, he was 24 lets not get ridiculous and an "old" jerry Stackhouse who was a whopping 32.

In any case you saying that they weren't that good just further proves my point that it is ridiculous to just assume the Mavs would have had "Multiple finals appearances" if they played in the East. They were a great regular season team and a pretty terrible/underachieving playoff team.

[CelticG1]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances. 

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

  Isn't it also pretty compelling evidence that Dirk's teammates were much better than Paul's?

Dirk's teammates were better than Paul's until the 07/08 season. Paul's teammates since then have been substantially better than Dirk's have ever been.

  They have and they haven't. The 09 playoff team had a big rotation of Perk/Baby/Scal/Moore. The 2011 playoff team finished up by starting a pg without the use of his left arm.

Did both those teams have 3 or more All-Stars? Are both of your points centered around really important players getting injured during the year (which is not a fair indication of team construction)

Dirk won a Championship against a team that beat the Celtics while starting DeShawn Stevenson for a majority of the games, and playing Brian Cardinal, Ian Mahinmi, and Peja Stojakovic serious minutes.

If we're going to play the 'end of the bench' card, the Mavs aren't lacking. Jose Juan Barea? Would any other team in the NBA have started that guy in the Finals if they could've afforded it? Did anyone consider Chandler, Stevenson, or Marion an asset of a title worthy team at the end of the season last year? Marion, Stevenson, and Chandler were basically given to the Mavs for cap relief!

I'm not even advocating Dirk over Pierce but lets be realistic with these talking points, eh?

I'm a little confused at some of your points. It sounds like you are giving more credit to the coach and GM than Dirk.

I do think the coach should get a TON of the credit for this championship. He wasn't afraid to trot out anyone on the team and pretty much gave anyone a chance.

It would have been like Doc trotting out Bradley, Pav, Murphy, Wafer and random times

[indeedproceed]

Maybe they shouldn't have won 67 games but to lose in the first round is an embarrassment no matter how you slice it. And that team was really good. You have Dirk and Terry in their prime

That's true. You had a legit superstar in Dirk, and a legit starter in Jason Terry (who was not anywhere close to All-Star material).

and Howard was pretty much a budding superstar which of course everyone forgets.

Whoa whoa whoa. Budding superstar? It depends on what you want to call a 'superstar'. I call LeBron, Howard, Kobe, Wade, Williams, CP3..those guys Superstars. All-NBA guys. Josh Howard was not that. He was a very good wing player, who was having a borderline All-Star season.

A "very young" Devin Harris, he was 24 lets not get ridiculous

3rd year in the league, first year as a starter, it was a young Devin Harris.

and an "old" jerry Stackhouse who was a whopping 32.

I'll give you that. Past his prime, but still really efficient, and played a critical role on that team.

[BballTim]

 They have and they haven't. The 09 playoff team had a big rotation of Perk/Baby/Scal/Moore. The 2011 playoff team finished up by starting a pg without the use of his left arm.

Did both those teams have 3 or more All-Stars? Are both of your points centered around really important players getting injured during the year (which is not a fair indication of team construction)

Dirk won a Championship against a team that beat the Celtics while starting DeShawn Stevenson for a majority of the games, and playing Brian Cardinal, Ian Mahinmi, and Peja Stojakovic serious minutes.

If we're going to play the 'end of the bench' card, the Mavs aren't lacking. Jose Juan Barea? Would any other team in the NBA have started that guy in the Finals if they could've afforded it? Did anyone consider Chandler, Stevenson, or Marion an asset of a title worthy team at the end of the season last year? Marion, Stevenson, and Chandler were basically given to the Mavs for cap relief!

I'm not even advocating Dirk over Pierce but lets be realistic with these talking points, eh?

  Realistic? Wow. I can't believe you're seriously going there. I'm not talking about end of the bench guys, I'm talking about actual rotations. I'm not talking about injuries during the season, but in the playoffs. In 08 PP had the better team and won the title while the Mavs flamed out in the first round. in 10 PP had the better team and they went to game 7 of the finals while the Mavs flamed out in the first round.

  In 09 the top 7 besides PP were Rondo, Allen, Perk, Baby, Scal, House and Marbury. The Celts lost a game 7 to the Magic. Dirk had Kidd, Terry, Josh Howard, Dampier, JJ, Brandon Bass and Antoine Wright and they lost 4-1 to the Nuggets in round 2.

[indeedproceed]

I'm a little confused at some of your points. It sounds like you are giving more credit to the coach and GM than Dirk.

Tim shifted the argument to say that the Celtics have not been substantially better than the Mavericks in terms of team construction over the last 4 years. I countered. It was a tangential argument, and I can see why you would be confused.

[LB3533]

That 67 win Mavs team wasn't that good.

Avery Johnson already stated this during his news conference after they were ousted in the playoffs.

That Mavs team went something like 14-2 with games decided by 3 points or less. (Record was most likely better if it was 6 points or less).

[BballTim]

I'm a little confused at some of your points. It sounds like you are giving more credit to the coach and GM than Dirk.

Tim shifted the argument to say that the Celtics have not been substantially better than the Mavericks in terms of team construction over the last 4 years. I countered. It was a tangential argument, and I can see why you would be confused.

  No, I was clearly talking about the actual members of the teams that participated in the playoffs. I never said anything about teams in terms of construction, you just added that to my statement to bolster your argument.

[indeedproceed]

I'm a little confused at some of your points. It sounds like you are giving more credit to the coach and GM than Dirk.

Tim shifted the argument to say that the Celtics have not been substantially better than the Mavericks in terms of team construction over the last 4 years. I countered. It was a tangential argument, and I can see why you would be confused.

  No, I was clearly talking about the actual members of the teams that participated in the playoffs. I never said anything about teams in terms of construction, you just added that to my statement to bolster your argument.

What are you talking about? How are we not in a tangential conversation about which team is better constructed? Were they constructed with basketball players of 4x4's?

  They have and they haven't. The 09 playoff team had a big rotation of Perk/Baby/Scal/Moore. The 2011 playoff team finished up by starting a pg without the use of his left arm.

Did both those teams have 3 or more All-Stars? Are both of your points centered around really important players getting injured during the year (which is not a fair indication of team construction)

Dirk won a Championship against a team that beat the Celtics while starting DeShawn Stevenson for a majority of the games, and playing Brian Cardinal, Ian Mahinmi, and Peja Stojakovic serious minutes.

If we're going to play the 'end of the bench' card, the Mavs aren't lacking. Jose Juan Barea? Would any other team in the NBA have started that guy in the Finals if they could've afforded it? Did anyone consider Chandler, Stevenson, or Marion an asset of a title worthy team at the end of the season last year? Marion, Stevenson, and Chandler were basically given to the Mavs for cap relief!

I'm not even advocating Dirk over Pierce but lets be realistic with these talking points, eh?

  In 09 the top 7 besides PP were Rondo, Allen, Perk, Baby, Scal, House and Marbury. The Celts lost a game 7 to the Magic.

You forgot Garnett, and Garnett makes the C's a better team, but since Garnett was injured, all the bigs moved up a spot in the playoffs.

Dirk had Kidd, Terry, Josh Howard, Dampier, JJ, Brandon Bass and Antoine Wright and they lost 4-1 to the Nuggets in round 2.

Dirk had Kidd for a half a season (if you're going to talk about the C's chemistry issues this year with trading Perkins, you have to keep that in mind here), Josh Howard was slowly recovering from injury, and where is Antoine Wright now?

You're handicapping the Celtics to make them seem worse while not giving the same benefit to the Mavs.

Plus, you talk about the Mavs 'Flaming Out'. Was that before or after they (as a 6 seed) beat the 3 seed Spurs 4-1? Or was it just when they, a 6 seed, lost to the 2nd seeded 54 win Nuggets.

Meanwhile the Celtics as defending champs (and missing KG) persevered against a 41 win Bulls team, before losing in 7to the Magic. (A magic team that likely would've lost to either the Spurs or Nuggets in the playoffs).

[BballTim]

I'm a little confused at some of your points. It sounds like you are giving more credit to the coach and GM than Dirk.

Tim shifted the argument to say that the Celtics have not been substantially better than the Mavericks in terms of team construction over the last 4 years. I countered. It was a tangential argument, and I can see why you would be confused.

  No, I was clearly talking about the actual members of the teams that participated in the playoffs. I never said anything about teams in terms of construction, you just added that to my statement to bolster your argument.

What are you talking about? How are we not in a tangential conversation about which team is better constructed? Were they constructed with basketball players of 4x4's?

  They have and they haven't. The 09 playoff team had a big rotation of Perk/Baby/Scal/Moore. The 2011 playoff team finished up by starting a pg without the use of his left arm.

Did both those teams have 3 or more All-Stars? Are both of your points centered around really important players getting injured during the year (which is not a fair indication of team construction)

Dirk won a Championship against a team that beat the Celtics while starting DeShawn Stevenson for a majority of the games, and playing Brian Cardinal, Ian Mahinmi, and Peja Stojakovic serious minutes.

If we're going to play the 'end of the bench' card, the Mavs aren't lacking. Jose Juan Barea? Would any other team in the NBA have started that guy in the Finals if they could've afforded it? Did anyone consider Chandler, Stevenson, or Marion an asset of a title worthy team at the end of the season last year? Marion, Stevenson, and Chandler were basically given to the Mavs for cap relief!

I'm not even advocating Dirk over Pierce but lets be realistic with these talking points, eh?

  In 09 the top 7 besides PP were Rondo, Allen, Perk, Baby, Scal, House and Marbury. The Celts lost a game 7 to the Magic.

You forgot Garnett, and Garnett makes the C's a better team, but since Garnett was injured, all the bigs moved up a spot in the playoffs.

Dirk had Kidd, Terry, Josh Howard, Dampier, JJ, Brandon Bass and Antoine Wright and they lost 4-1 to the Nuggets in round 2.

Dirk had Kidd for a half a season (if you're going to talk about the C's chemistry issues this year with trading Perkins, you have to keep that in mind here), Josh Howard was slowly recovering from injury, and where is Antoine Wright now?

You're handicapping the Celtics to make them seem worse while not giving the same benefit to the Mavs.

Plus, you talk about the Mavs 'Flaming Out'. Was that before or after they (as a 6 seed) beat the 3 seed Spurs 4-1? Or was it just when they, a 6 seed, lost to the 2nd seeded 54 win Nuggets.

Meanwhile the Celtics as defending champs (and missing KG) persevered against a 41 win Bulls team, before losing in 7to the Magic. (A magic team that likely would've lost to either the Spurs or Nuggets in the playoffs).

  Ok, I'm officially lost. PP has been on teams that were more talented than Dirk's teams. When the players were healthy Paul's teams were IMO significantly better. I felt that injuries during the playoffs were significant since much of the conversation has been about how well their respective teams fared. I'm not following what exactly you're disputing or what point you're trying to make.

  And when I said the Mavs flamed out I'm pretty sure I was talking about first round losses.

[indeedproceed]

  Ok, I'm officially lost. PP has been on teams that were more talented than Dirk's teams. When the players were healthy Paul's teams were IMO significantly better. I felt that injuries during the playoffs were significant since much of the conversation has been about how well their respective teams fared. I'm not following what exactly you're disputing or what point you're trying to make.

  And when I said the Mavs flamed out I'm pretty sure I was talking about first round losses.

I'm a little twisted around now too.

My point: The Celtics since the getting the Big 3 have had a better cast around Pierce than Dirk ever had in Dallas.

[BballTim]

  Ok, I'm officially lost. PP has been on teams that were more talented than Dirk's teams. When the players were healthy Paul's teams were IMO significantly better. I felt that injuries during the playoffs were significant since much of the conversation has been about how well their respective teams fared. I'm not following what exactly you're disputing or what point you're trying to make.

  And when I said the Mavs flamed out I'm pretty sure I was talking about first round losses.

I'm a little twisted around now too.

My point: The Celtics since the getting the Big 3 have had a better cast around Pierce than Dirk ever had in Dallas.

  I agree, but if the Celts had gone through the playoffs with those casts intact we'd probably be coming off of our 4th straight finals appearance and our 3rd or 4th title in that time frame. PP would have had more success with a better cast. I'm not sure exactly what that adds to the discussion though.

[Moranis]

  Ok, I'm officially lost. PP has been on teams that were more talented than Dirk's teams. When the players were healthy Paul's teams were IMO significantly better. I felt that injuries during the playoffs were significant since much of the conversation has been about how well their respective teams fared. I'm not following what exactly you're disputing or what point you're trying to make.

  And when I said the Mavs flamed out I'm pretty sure I was talking about first round losses.

I'm a little twisted around now too.

My point: The Celtics since the getting the Big 3 have had a better cast around Pierce than Dirk ever had in Dallas.

  I agree, but if the Celts had gone through the playoffs with those casts intact we'd probably be coming off of our 4th straight finals appearance and our 3rd or 4th title in that time frame. PP would have had more success with a better cast. I'm not sure exactly what that adds to the discussion though.

No one knows what might have happened, but you could certainly make a strong argument that even the cast Pierce had in the playoffs this year was a much better supporting cast then what Dirk had in the playoffs this year.  I mean unless I'm missing something, Pierce was playing with 3 current all stars. 

[get_banners]

  Ok, I'm officially lost. PP has been on teams that were more talented than Dirk's teams. When the players were healthy Paul's teams were IMO significantly better. I felt that injuries during the playoffs were significant since much of the conversation has been about how well their respective teams fared. I'm not following what exactly you're disputing or what point you're trying to make.

  And when I said the Mavs flamed out I'm pretty sure I was talking about first round losses.

I'm a little twisted around now too.

My point: The Celtics since the getting the Big 3 have had a better cast around Pierce than Dirk ever had in Dallas.

  I agree, but if the Celts had gone through the playoffs with those casts intact we'd probably be coming off of our 4th straight finals appearance and our 3rd or 4th title in that time frame. PP would have had more success with a better cast. I'm not sure exactly what that adds to the discussion though.

No one knows what might have happened, but you could certainly make a strong argument that even the cast Pierce had in the playoffs this year was a much better supporting cast then what Dirk had in the playoffs this year.  I mean unless I'm missing something, Pierce was playing with 3 current all stars. 

no way...dallas was better and deeper. if we were healthy, different story. however, we lost our starting center, had our other center playing w/ a broken wrist, a one-armed point guard (which, as far as i'm concerned, ended our playoff chances, period), and our key big off the bench playing in a different world (baby).

[Edgar]

paul over dirk any day any way~

what my boy bass said

[BballTim]

  Ok, I'm officially lost. PP has been on teams that were more talented than Dirk's teams. When the players were healthy Paul's teams were IMO significantly better. I felt that injuries during the playoffs were significant since much of the conversation has been about how well their respective teams fared. I'm not following what exactly you're disputing or what point you're trying to make.

  And when I said the Mavs flamed out I'm pretty sure I was talking about first round losses.

I'm a little twisted around now too.

My point: The Celtics since the getting the Big 3 have had a better cast around Pierce than Dirk ever had in Dallas.

  I agree, but if the Celts had gone through the playoffs with those casts intact we'd probably be coming off of our 4th straight finals appearance and our 3rd or 4th title in that time frame. PP would have had more success with a better cast. I'm not sure exactly what that adds to the discussion though.

No one knows what might have happened, but you could certainly make a strong argument that even the cast Pierce had in the playoffs this year was a much better supporting cast then what Dirk had in the playoffs this year.  I mean unless I'm missing something, Pierce was playing with 3 current all stars. 

  You're missing Rondo having his elbow dislocated, perhaps? What happens to Dallas if Terry or Chandler or even Kidd suffer a similar injury?