One more win to prove all the Miami doubters right?

[Fafnir]

I guess if you're still calling the Heat successful I'm not sure what the "doubters" were right about.

Oh, little things like how getting a better PG and a better center was more important than tying up all your available cap space on a back up wing, a back up and undersized power forward and Joel Anthony.  Or maybe about how LeBron and Wade, while very good passers for their positions, do not have the skill set to run teams like point guards.  You know, stuff like that.

Mike

Yet they've gotten reasonably adequete play out of the PG positon most nights. Also Haslem now that he's been playing has been a part of most of their best 5 man units. Bosh playing the C position has been their best option all year long and would have been no matter what FA they would have signed with their cap space.

Given James Jones injury having Miller to provide wing depth has also been important for them.

Yes, and if Miami had something better than "reasonably adequate" play at PG and something better at center than Bosh (who you do realize is a power forward?), there's no possible way that could have made the Heat a better team.  Nope.  Riley abo****ely needed to lock in Miller, Haslem and Joel Antony with long term deals and make it extremely difficult to do anything else with his roster.

Mike

Who exactly should he have gotten to play the PG/C positions? How would that have made them better? I'm aware that Bosh is a PF, but he can play C very effectively and has done so often for the Heat.

They were going to be over the cap no matter what, assuming the owner doesn't mind the luxury tax then Haslem/Anthony/Miller doesn't hurt them under the current system.

[Roy H.]

However, I think the fact that they're in the Finals and two wins away does, in fact, show that Riley's plan was a viable one. 

I guess it depends on what you mean by "Riley's plan".  There are plenty of players that could have been thrown together with Bron, Wade and Bosh and the team could just have easily wound up exactly where they are now.

To me, Riley's plan was to basically forget about PG and center and pair the Not Yet Big 3 with Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem as the unit that would ultimately win games at the end.  Now, maybe they just need more time together and better health, but I look at that lineup and see an overall small team that's not terribly athletic at 3 out of 5 positions and is without anyone who can run a team like a PG.

Mike

I guess the question for me is, who were the better options?

As wdleehi mentioned, Haslem and Miller signed for discounted contracts, and were widely pursued by other teams.  The Heat offered JO a discounted deal, but he turned it down.

Were there other quality big men -- better than Haslem -- that could have been signed for what he agreed to?  Miller has been a bust, but what was the better alternative there, as well?

[Fafnir]

Were there other quality big men -- better than Haslem -- that could have been signed for what he agreed to?  Miller has been a bust, but what was the better alternative there, as well?

Plus its hard to separate his injury from his lack luster play. He's had some very solid playoff games, a healthy year with this team and he could turn it around very quickly.

[Bankshot]

In Dirk We Trust.

+1....and hope you have 80 TPs soon!!!

+2... you don't know how hard I'm rooting for Dirk. lol  I would be sick if Miami wins.  Don't blow this, Dallas!

[MBunge]

I guess if you're still calling the Heat successful I'm not sure what the "doubters" were right about.

Oh, little things like how getting a better PG and a better center was more important than tying up all your available cap space on a back up wing, a back up and undersized power forward and Joel Anthony.  Or maybe about how LeBron and Wade, while very good passers for their positions, do not have the skill set to run teams like point guards.  You know, stuff like that.

Mike

Yet they've gotten reasonably adequete play out of the PG positon most nights. Also Haslem now that he's been playing has been a part of most of their best 5 man units. Bosh playing the C position has been their best option all year long and would have been no matter what FA they would have signed with their cap space.

Given James Jones injury having Miller to provide wing depth has also been important for them.

Yes, and if Miami had something better than "reasonably adequate" play at PG and something better at center than Bosh (who you do realize is a power forward?), there's no possible way that could have made the Heat a better team.  Nope.  Riley abo****ely needed to lock in Miller, Haslem and Joel Antony with long term deals and make it extremely difficult to do anything else with his roster.

Mike

He got them under market value.  What three players that are better could he have gotten for under market value?

It's not a question of market value.  It's that he went after Miller, who plays the 2/3, and Haslem, who plays the 4, after already investing hundreds of millions of dollars at those positions, leaving him with nothing but scraps at the 1 and 5.

Now, there's a decent argument to be made that there wasn't much to choose from when it came to bigs, justifying the Haslem signing.  But while he's had some moments in the playoffs, I don't think there's any excuse for Riley tying up Joel Anthony for 5 years.

When it comes to Miller, though, focusing on him and not even (as far as we know) looking at someone like Raymond Felton has turned out to be a pretty questionable move.

Mike

[wdleehi]

I guess if you're still calling the Heat successful I'm not sure what the "doubters" were right about.

Oh, little things like how getting a better PG and a better center was more important than tying up all your available cap space on a back up wing, a back up and undersized power forward and Joel Anthony.  Or maybe about how LeBron and Wade, while very good passers for their positions, do not have the skill set to run teams like point guards.  You know, stuff like that.

Mike

Yet they've gotten reasonably adequete play out of the PG positon most nights. Also Haslem now that he's been playing has been a part of most of their best 5 man units. Bosh playing the C position has been their best option all year long and would have been no matter what FA they would have signed with their cap space.

Given James Jones injury having Miller to provide wing depth has also been important for them.

Yes, and if Miami had something better than "reasonably adequate" play at PG and something better at center than Bosh (who you do realize is a power forward?), there's no possible way that could have made the Heat a better team.  Nope.  Riley abo****ely needed to lock in Miller, Haslem and Joel Antony with long term deals and make it extremely difficult to do anything else with his roster.

Mike

He got them under market value.  What three players that are better could he have gotten for under market value?

It's not a question of market value.  It's that he went after Miller, who plays the 2/3, and Haslem, who plays the 4, after already investing hundreds of millions of dollars at those positions, leaving him with nothing but scraps at the 1 and 5.

Now, there's a decent argument to be made that there wasn't much to choose from when it came to bigs, justifying the Haslem signing.  But while he's had some moments in the playoffs, I don't think there's any excuse for Riley tying up Joel Anthony for 5 years.

When it comes to Miller, though, focusing on him and not even (as far as we know) looking at someone like Raymond Felton has turned out to be a pretty questionable move.

Mike

He could look at Felton all he wanted to.  They didn't have the ability to add him. 

[MBunge]

I guess if you're still calling the Heat successful I'm not sure what the "doubters" were right about.

Oh, little things like how getting a better PG and a better center was more important than tying up all your available cap space on a back up wing, a back up and undersized power forward and Joel Anthony.  Or maybe about how LeBron and Wade, while very good passers for their positions, do not have the skill set to run teams like point guards.  You know, stuff like that.

Mike

Yet they've gotten reasonably adequete play out of the PG positon most nights. Also Haslem now that he's been playing has been a part of most of their best 5 man units. Bosh playing the C position has been their best option all year long and would have been no matter what FA they would have signed with their cap space.

Given James Jones injury having Miller to provide wing depth has also been important for them.

Yes, and if Miami had something better than "reasonably adequate" play at PG and something better at center than Bosh (who you do realize is a power forward?), there's no possible way that could have made the Heat a better team.  Nope.  Riley abo****ely needed to lock in Miller, Haslem and Joel Antony with long term deals and make it extremely difficult to do anything else with his roster.

Mike

Who exactly should he have gotten to play the PG/C positions? How would that have made them better? I'm aware that Bosh is a PF, but he can play C very effectively and has done so often for the Heat.

They were going to be over the cap no matter what, assuming the owner doesn't mind the luxury tax then Haslem/Anthony/Miller doesn't hurt them under the current system.

At point guard, Raymond Felton.

At center, Louis Amundson, Amir Johnson and Brendan Haywood.  You might argue for Haslem over those guys, but not Joel Anthony.

Mike

[MBunge]

I guess if you're still calling the Heat successful I'm not sure what the "doubters" were right about.

Oh, little things like how getting a better PG and a better center was more important than tying up all your available cap space on a back up wing, a back up and undersized power forward and Joel Anthony.  Or maybe about how LeBron and Wade, while very good passers for their positions, do not have the skill set to run teams like point guards.  You know, stuff like that.

Mike

Yet they've gotten reasonably adequete play out of the PG positon most nights. Also Haslem now that he's been playing has been a part of most of their best 5 man units. Bosh playing the C position has been their best option all year long and would have been no matter what FA they would have signed with their cap space.

Given James Jones injury having Miller to provide wing depth has also been important for them.

Yes, and if Miami had something better than "reasonably adequate" play at PG and something better at center than Bosh (who you do realize is a power forward?), there's no possible way that could have made the Heat a better team.  Nope.  Riley abo****ely needed to lock in Miller, Haslem and Joel Antony with long term deals and make it extremely difficult to do anything else with his roster.

Mike

He got them under market value.  What three players that are better could he have gotten for under market value?

It's not a question of market value.  It's that he went after Miller, who plays the 2/3, and Haslem, who plays the 4, after already investing hundreds of millions of dollars at those positions, leaving him with nothing but scraps at the 1 and 5.

Now, there's a decent argument to be made that there wasn't much to choose from when it came to bigs, justifying the Haslem signing.  But while he's had some moments in the playoffs, I don't think there's any excuse for Riley tying up Joel Anthony for 5 years.

When it comes to Miller, though, focusing on him and not even (as far as we know) looking at someone like Raymond Felton has turned out to be a pretty questionable move.

Mike

He could look at Felton all he wanted to.  They didn't have the ability to add him. 

Did he even try?  If Miller and Haslem took less money, who's to say Felton wouldn't have if Riley went after him?

My point is that Riley WENT AFTER Miler, Haslem and Joel Anthony to the exclusion (as far as I could see) of any other possibility.  That's what makes the decisions questionable.

Mike

[wdleehi]

I guess if you're still calling the Heat successful I'm not sure what the "doubters" were right about.

Oh, little things like how getting a better PG and a better center was more important than tying up all your available cap space on a back up wing, a back up and undersized power forward and Joel Anthony.  Or maybe about how LeBron and Wade, while very good passers for their positions, do not have the skill set to run teams like point guards.  You know, stuff like that.

Mike

Yet they've gotten reasonably adequete play out of the PG positon most nights. Also Haslem now that he's been playing has been a part of most of their best 5 man units. Bosh playing the C position has been their best option all year long and would have been no matter what FA they would have signed with their cap space.

Given James Jones injury having Miller to provide wing depth has also been important for them.

Yes, and if Miami had something better than "reasonably adequate" play at PG and something better at center than Bosh (who you do realize is a power forward?), there's no possible way that could have made the Heat a better team.  Nope.  Riley abo****ely needed to lock in Miller, Haslem and Joel Antony with long term deals and make it extremely difficult to do anything else with his roster.

Mike

Who exactly should he have gotten to play the PG/C positions? How would that have made them better? I'm aware that Bosh is a PF, but he can play C very effectively and has done so often for the Heat.

They were going to be over the cap no matter what, assuming the owner doesn't mind the luxury tax then Haslem/Anthony/Miller doesn't hurt them under the current system.

At point guard, Raymond Felton.

At center, Louis Amundson, Amir Johnson and Brendan Haywood.  You might argue for Haslem over those guys, but not Joel Anthony.

Mike

Felton was given 7 million and a chance to star in NY.


Miller was given 5 million


Why would Felton take less money at this point in his career?  Especially with the new CBA coming up? 


Haywood is making 6.9 million on the other team in the finals.

Haslem is better then the other players you list (and they are PFs, not Cs)

[Roy H.]

My point is that Riley WENT AFTER Miler, Haslem and Joel Anthony to the exclusion (as far as I could see) of any other possibility.  That's what makes the decisions questionable.

Haslem brought a lot of chemistry and continuity to the team, though.  It's hard to find a better player for $3.5 million.  Also, I know it was reported at the time that Wade specifically gave back money so that his good friend Haslem could come back.  Would he have done the same for a different player?

As for who Riley pursued, we have no idea.  We do know that he attempted to resign JO, who declined to sign.  Maybe he did go after other guys.

Now, in a perfect world where we can use hindsight, it's easy to see what Riley should do:  he uses the combined $13 million given to Haslem, Miller, and Anthony and he signs Felton, Dorrell Wright, Ben Wallace, and Kurt Thomas.  However, based upon the resources he had at the time, I think it's remarkable that Riley put together as strong of a team as he did.

[MBunge]

I guess if you're still calling the Heat successful I'm not sure what the "doubters" were right about.

Oh, little things like how getting a better PG and a better center was more important than tying up all your available cap space on a back up wing, a back up and undersized power forward and Joel Anthony.  Or maybe about how LeBron and Wade, while very good passers for their positions, do not have the skill set to run teams like point guards.  You know, stuff like that.

Mike

Yet they've gotten reasonably adequete play out of the PG positon most nights. Also Haslem now that he's been playing has been a part of most of their best 5 man units. Bosh playing the C position has been their best option all year long and would have been no matter what FA they would have signed with their cap space.

Given James Jones injury having Miller to provide wing depth has also been important for them.

Yes, and if Miami had something better than "reasonably adequate" play at PG and something better at center than Bosh (who you do realize is a power forward?), there's no possible way that could have made the Heat a better team.  Nope.  Riley abo****ely needed to lock in Miller, Haslem and Joel Antony with long term deals and make it extremely difficult to do anything else with his roster.

Mike

Who exactly should he have gotten to play the PG/C positions? How would that have made them better? I'm aware that Bosh is a PF, but he can play C very effectively and has done so often for the Heat.

They were going to be over the cap no matter what, assuming the owner doesn't mind the luxury tax then Haslem/Anthony/Miller doesn't hurt them under the current system.

At point guard, Raymond Felton.

At center, Louis Amundson, Amir Johnson and Brendan Haywood.  You might argue for Haslem over those guys, but not Joel Anthony.

Mike

Felton was given 7 million and a chance to star in NY.


Miller was given 5 million


Why would Felton take less money at this point in his career?  Especially with the new CBA coming up? 


Haywood is making 6.9 million on the other team in the finals.

Haslem is better then the other players you list (and they are PFs, not Cs)

Haslem, Miller and Anthony combined for about 11 million dollars in salary.  That's more than either Felton or Haywood got.  Would you rather have Miller and Anthony than Felton?  Haslem and Anthony than Haywood?

And we don't know what Felton or some other player might have been willing to take to play in Miami because, as far as I can recall, Riley didn't target anyone else.  He zeroed in on Miller, Haslem and Anthony to the exclusion of others.

If Riley got those guys because he couldn't get anyone better, then you really couldn't criticize him.  The criticism is that he prioritized getting those guys over other possible options.

Mike

[MBunge]

As for who Riley pursued, we have no idea.  We do know that he attempted to resign JO, who declined to sign.  Maybe he did go after other guys.

Maybe I missed it, but when did Riley try to resign JO?  I know he had to renounce the rights to JO in order to clear up space for the Not Yet Big 3.

Mike

[Roy H.]

Maybe I missed it, but when did Riley try to resign JO?  I know he had to renounce the rights to JO in order to clear up space for the Not Yet Big 3.

JO disclosed this during the season.  Much like with Haslem, you're still entitled to re-sign your own free agents even after they're renounced, so long as you have cap space left over to do so.

[Fafnir]

I guess if you're still calling the Heat successful I'm not sure what the "doubters" were right about.

Oh, little things like how getting a better PG and a better center was more important than tying up all your available cap space on a back up wing, a back up and undersized power forward and Joel Anthony.  Or maybe about how LeBron and Wade, while very good passers for their positions, do not have the skill set to run teams like point guards.  You know, stuff like that.

Mike

Yet they've gotten reasonably adequete play out of the PG positon most nights. Also Haslem now that he's been playing has been a part of most of their best 5 man units. Bosh playing the C position has been their best option all year long and would have been no matter what FA they would have signed with their cap space.

Given James Jones injury having Miller to provide wing depth has also been important for them.

Yes, and if Miami had something better than "reasonably adequate" play at PG and something better at center than Bosh (who you do realize is a power forward?), there's no possible way that could have made the Heat a better team.  Nope.  Riley abo****ely needed to lock in Miller, Haslem and Joel Antony with long term deals and make it extremely difficult to do anything else with his roster.

Mike

Who exactly should he have gotten to play the PG/C positions? How would that have made them better? I'm aware that Bosh is a PF, but he can play C very effectively and has done so often for the Heat.

They were going to be over the cap no matter what, assuming the owner doesn't mind the luxury tax then Haslem/Anthony/Miller doesn't hurt them under the current system.

At point guard, Raymond Felton.

At center, Louis Amundson, Amir Johnson and Brendan Haywood.  You might argue for Haslem over those guys, but not Joel Anthony.

Mike

Felton was given 7 million and a chance to star in NY.


Miller was given 5 million


Why would Felton take less money at this point in his career?  Especially with the new CBA coming up? 


Haywood is making 6.9 million on the other team in the finals.

Haslem is better then the other players you list (and they are PFs, not Cs)

Haslem, Miller and Anthony combined for about 11 million dollars in salary.  That's more than either Felton or Haywood got.  Would you rather have Miller and Anthony than Felton?  Haslem and Anthony than Haywood?

And we don't know what Felton or some other player might have been willing to take to play in Miami because, as far as I can recall, Riley didn't target anyone else.  He zeroed in on Miller, Haslem and Anthony to the exclusion of others.

If Riley got those guys because he couldn't get anyone better, then you really couldn't criticize him.  The criticism is that he prioritized getting those guys over other possible options.

Mike

So instead of getting three players he's supposed to sign 1?

That'd make me nervous as a GM of a team that was and is as shallow as the Heat currently are.

[Fafnir]

Maybe I missed it, but when did Riley try to resign JO?  I know he had to renounce the rights to JO in order to clear up space for the Not Yet Big 3.

JO disclosed this during the season.  Much like with Haslem, you're still entitled to re-sign your own free agents even after they're renounced, so long as you have cap space left over to do so.

It was for less money than Boston though iirc. So it wasn't going to happen.