Does this year's playoffs show that Rondo is (at least) on par with Rose?

[BballTim]

I keep seeing people talk about RR being hurt (dislocated elbow was ONLY 2 1/2 games)... you say that as if Rose wasn't injured either. Rose sprained the same ankle twice during the playoffs. Who knows what other injuries he had... you guys know about RR's injuries b/c you follow his team... whos to say Rose wasn't as injured as RR this season but played through it (I mean before his dislocation)? I don't care who is better, I know I like what we have and I'll just hope our guy does what we need at any given moment!

  You didn't have to follow the team to know about Rondo's elbow or his plantar fasciitis  or his hamstring but you probably did to know about his foot/ankle problems in the spring or his hand problems or his bad back in the playoffs or the various other ailments he had. You could see from watching Rondo play that his health was limiting his movements. I didn't see a ton of that watching Rose.

[PosImpos]

In response to the title of the original post --


No.

[BballTim]

I learned in my accounting classes that statistics can be manipulated to prove almost anything: So I wont compare the assist statistics of both players. I dint watch any of the Bulls games this season except those when the Celtics beat the Bulls. But I saw a lot of plays where Rondo went by himself on a fastbreak and all he had to do was put the ball in the basket cause he was all by himself. Instead he waited for another Celtic to arrive and he fed him the ball and gotan assist for that.

  First of all it's not that unusual that players on a fast break pass the ball to someone else and let them score. The only thing unusual is a player frequently attacked for doing something that happens all the time because of some imagined nefarious motivation. Honestly, if Rondo were interested in padding his stats he'd go for the points, that would improve his reputation among the fans who's main way to rate players is by how much they score.

 Ricky Davis once missed a layup by himself and then rebounded the ball and put it back and got a rebound for a triple assist. He missed on purpose. Then the Ricky haters could not have enough space in here to really go after Ricky for his selfish style. Never saw anybody in here criticize Rondo for padding an assist when good basketball practice dictated that if you are all alone and can put the ball in the hole, PUT IT! But then C'est la vie.!

  Ricky Davis purposefully missed a shot at the opponent's basket to get a rebound for a triple double. The fact that you're comparing that play to Rondo giving the ball to Paul or Ray to let them score is pretty bizarre.

[soap07]

 Aside from, let's start the list, DWS, Drtg, opponents ppp, opponent's assists allowed, opponent's rebounds allowed, steals, defensive rebounds all favor Rondo over Rose. Those are all objective statistical measures, you must have missed them somehow.

Sigh....Here is what I said that you are taking a ridiculous amount of umbrage to.

"Come on man, seriously? I'd understand putting Rondo ahead of Rose (even though, every objective statistical measure puts Rose on par if not better than Rose defensively) because of Rondo's rep. But Westbrook, Kidd, and Wall? "


I should be more specific and say...MANY objective measures since you feel the need to nitpick about every single Rondo post.

 I'll just cite an earlier post from IndeedProceed...

I feel betrayed by just believing numbers when people post them.

Rondo: 100 points allowed per 100 poss, 4.8 DWS
Rose: 103 points allowed per 100 poss, 4.8 DWS

From Synergy Sports:

Rondo PPP: .79
Rose PPP: .78

Rondo Defending Iso Plays: .67 PPP
Rose Defending Iso Plays: .64 PPP

Numbers bear out that they're pretty equal.

....ON PAR.

Opponents PER? About the same.
DWS? Same.
Iso plays points per possession? About the same.
dRTG? About the same.
Opposing points per game per 48? A marginal difference in Rose's favor.

Most of the other stats you cite (opponents assists, rebounds) are based on the teammates you play with it as well. The stats I cited above are as close to individual defensive measures as one can get - and it can reasonably be surmised that Rondo and Rose are close, if not equal defensively.


Besides, the post you are freaking out about for no apparent reason was arguing the point that there is no way Russell Westbrook or Jason Kidd are better defensive points than Rondo.

[soap07]

I keep seeing people talk about RR being hurt (dislocated elbow was ONLY 2 1/2 games)... you say that as if Rose wasn't injured either. Rose sprained the same ankle twice during the playoffs. Who knows what other injuries he had... you guys know about RR's injuries b/c you follow his team... whos to say Rose wasn't as injured as RR this season but played through it (I mean before his dislocation)?

Because he only missed 1 game of the season? I mean, he was probably banged up just like every other NBA player in the league, but he couldn't have been that hurt (unlike Rondo, who missed about 15 games due to injuries). If Rose had plantar fasciitis, hamstring injuries, or a sprained pinky, I'm sure we would hear about it on ESPN or any other media outlet the very next day.

He sprained the ankle at the end of the season and during the first round against Indiana (or Atlanta, I can't remember, but it was at the end of the game on a useless foul).

[XxSMSxX]

  I also think Iverson is one of the more over rated players in the ESPN era.  Sure he got a team to the Finals but it was in the worst era of the Eastern Conference in recent memory, possibly ever.  There were probably 8 or 9 teams in the Western Conference that season who were better then the 76ers of Iverson.

  My comparison of the two was mostly from these playoffs.  He forced way to many bad shots which is very much like Iverson.  He scored a whole lot of points but took way to many shots to score them,  Also very Iverson like.  He just quit looking for his teammates which again is very much like Iverson.

   I do believe provided enough consistent help that he could count on Rose would be more of a facilitator, something Iverson never quite got.  Rose also by all reports is a great team guy and leader, something Iverson failed at miserably during his career.

Allen Iverson carried a great defensive squad but a horrid offensive team to the finals and managed to take game 1 by him self against the Lakers who lost only 1 playoff game that season, everyone loves to talk about how Lebron carried a squad to the finals but the only "good" team they beat were the Pistons.

Iverson wasn't a chucker, at least in the sense that he forced alot of shots. He had to score and have the ball in his hands all the time because literally no one else could create their own offense consistently on that team. The fact that he did this while only being 5'11 and playing his prime mostly in an era where you were handchecked all the way to the rim proves at least to me that he's nowhere near overrated.

Besides he played really good being a second option to Carmelo on the Nuggets. Put up some of his best numbers while being very efficient because he no longer had to play nearly 41 minutes a game and have to score + create all of his teams offense.

Comparing Rose to Iverson IS underrating Iverson. He had no where near the offensive options that Rose has right now on top of Rose conviently having probably the best defensive squad in the L.

[CelticsFanNC]

  If Iverson were that good or even close to being a player who's game was conducive to winning he'd still be playing in the NBA.

  I find it almost comical that people still defend this guy.  He was a coach killer and a team cancer.  He continually put his needs and desires above the teams.  During his time in Philly they brought in All-Star level talent or close to All-Star level talent to play alongside of him and those players left Philly with their careers in shambles(Coleman, Robinson, VanHorn).

  He was one of a long line of post Jordan era players who thought they could "be like Mike" and dominate the basketball and win NBA titles but the fact is the only guy in NBA history who could win multiple championships while dominating the basketball was Jordan.  None of them were as good as Jordan and the main reason Jordan could be as successful as he was on a team level while dominating the ball was because his own era was watered down by a huge amount of expansion to the league during that time.

[BballTim]

 Aside from, let's start the list, DWS, Drtg, opponents ppp, opponent's assists allowed, opponent's rebounds allowed, steals, defensive rebounds all favor Rondo over Rose. Those are all objective statistical measures, you must have missed them somehow.

Sigh....Here is what I said that you are taking a ridiculous amount of umbrage to.

"Come on man, seriously? I'd understand putting Rondo ahead of Rose (even though, every objective statistical measure puts Rose on par if not better than Rose defensively) because of Rondo's rep. But Westbrook, Kidd, and Wall? "


I should be more specific and say...MANY objective measures since you feel the need to nitpick about every single Rondo post.

 I'll just cite an earlier post from IndeedProceed...

I feel betrayed by just believing numbers when people post them.

Rondo: 100 points allowed per 100 poss, 4.8 DWS
Rose: 103 points allowed per 100 poss, 4.8 DWS

From Synergy Sports:

Rondo PPP: .79
Rose PPP: .78

Rondo Defending Iso Plays: .67 PPP
Rose Defending Iso Plays: .64 PPP

Numbers bear out that they're pretty equal.

....ON PAR.

Opponents PER? About the same.
DWS? Same.
Iso plays points per possession? About the same.
dRTG? About the same.
Opposing points per game per 48? A marginal difference in Rose's favor.

Most of the other stats you cite (opponents assists, rebounds) are based on the teammates you play with it as well. The stats I cited above are as close to individual defensive measures as one can get - and it can reasonably be surmised that Rondo and Rose are close, if not equal defensively.


Besides, the post you are freaking out about for no apparent reason was arguing the point that there is no way Russell Westbrook or Jason Kidd are better defensive points than Rondo.

  Haha. I'm not sure we share the same opinion of what constitutes "a ridiculous amount of umbrage" or "freaking out about for no apparent reason". In any case, it's worth pointing out, when things depend on teammates, that Rose's teammates were better defensively than Rondo's. Also, if you look at the post you quoted, a Dtrg of 100 and 103 aren't about the same. If you look at all the guards that played more than 25 minutes a game and more than 40 games that 3 is 20% of the difference between best and worst.

  DWS accumulate over time. The more you play, the more win shares you can earn. Rondo has the same amount as Rose in 20% fewer minutes. Hence his DWS is a full 20% better than Rose's. While I agree that those synergy numbers might be as close to individual measures as you can get, that doesn't mean that it's the sole measure of a good defender. I agree with you about Westbrook and Kidd, I just think "every objective statistical measure puts Rose on par if not better" should read "most objective statistical measure show Rondo better than Rose but they are fairly equal in a few categories".

[paulcowens]

I don't understand all the fuss about Rondo passing the ball to Allen on breakaways, trading a basket for an assist.  As I see it, it's perfectly in line with the way Rondo sees his role as pg for him to do that;  he's almost dogmatic about it that his role is to set other players up.   Also, from Rondo's point of view, it makes a lot of sense to reward people for running the floor.

[paulcowens]

In response to the title of the original post --


No.

Well said.  Rondo is better.

[Celtics18]

I don't understand all the fuss about Rondo passing the ball to Allen on breakaways, trading a basket for an assist.  As I see it, it's perfectly in line with the way Rondo sees his role as pg for him to do that;  he's almost dogmatic about it that his role is to set other players up.   Also, from Rondo's point of view, it makes a lot of sense to reward people for running the floor.

Tommy Point.

Plus, it keeps guys running the floor and ready to get the ball.  Good things.

[EDWARDO]

In response to the title of the original post --


No.

Well said.  Rondo is better.

If you asked every NBA GM to pick between the two it would be 30-0 in favor of Rose. There are 20 people in the world that don't know this and they are all posting on this chat. Unbelievable.

Next, I'll read that someone wants to make Rondo a player/coach!

[EDWARDO]

OH SWEET GOD! SOMEONE IS SAYING THAT RONDO SHOULD BE A PLAYER COACH!!!

http://www.celticsblog.com/2011/5/29/2195787/rondo-as-next-coach

[BballTim]

In response to the title of the original post --


No.

Well said.  Rondo is better.

If you asked every NBA GM to pick between the two it would be 30-0 in favor of Rose. There are 20 people in the world that don't know this and they are all posting on this chat. Unbelievable.

Next, I'll read that someone wants to make Rondo a player/coach!

  If you have a link to that poll I'd love to see it. The whole "completely made up" thing takes away from your point.

[EDWARDO]

In response to the title of the original post --


No.

Well said.  Rondo is better.

If you asked every NBA GM to pick between the two it would be 30-0 in favor of Rose. There are 20 people in the world that don't know this and they are all posting on this chat. Unbelievable.

Next, I'll read that someone wants to make Rondo a player/coach!

  If you have a link to that poll I'd love to see it. The whole "completely made up" thing takes away from your point.

You are literally on the verge of "prove to me that cigarettes are bad for people" territory here, but how about this is a proxy? The fact that every single GM would take Rose is completely undoubted by everyone on the planet but the 20 of you.

Here's is a list of 121 people paid as professionals to expound on basketball and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM said Rose is more valuable than Rondo.


MVP Voting


Derrick Rose, Chicago   113   6   2   --   --   1182
Dwight Howard, Orlando   3   57   31   16   11   643
LeBron James, Miami   4   26   39   31   12   522
Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers   1   18   32   40   12   428
Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City   --   6   10   20   38   190
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas   --   5   3   11   30   113
Dwyane Wade, Miami   --   1   1   2   6   24
Manu Ginobili, San Antonio   --   2   --   --   6   20
Amar'e Stoudemire, New York   --   --   1   --   4   9
Blake Griffin, L.A. Clippers   --   --   1   --   --   5
Rajon Rondo, Boston   --   --   1   --   --   5
Tony Parker, San Antonio   --   --   --   1   --   3
Chris Paul, New Orleans   --   --   --   --   2   2