Thunder turmoil, Rajon for Russell anyone?

[BballTim]

I must say - I don't quite buy this argument. It's not like as a shoot-first point guard, Westbrook is only taking jumpers rather than passing it to get extra scoring. Creating shots for yourself, whether passing or shooting, does make you susceptible to turnovers. He's attacking the rim a decent amount, which makes him more susceptible to turnovers. While he may not pass as much as Rajon, he's still only one or two assists off while scoring a whole lot more. I think turnover rate here is definitely applicable.

  Westbrook takes 5 more jumpers a game than Rondo. Take those jumpers out of the comparison and the turnover numbers will skew in the other direction.

For Jason Kidd, I think the correlation is between usage rate and turnover percentage, rather than shooting vs. passing. If you have a higher usage rate, you will likely have a higher turnover percentage.

  The opposite is true. Jason's 7 highest turnover rates came in the 7 years of his lowest usage rates.

[soap07]

  Westbrook takes 5 more jumpers a game than Rondo. Take those jumpers out of the comparison and the turnover numbers will skew in the other direction.

Either way, Westbrook is usually creating the jumpers for himself. It's not like a Ray Allen situation where he's being assisted by Rondo. The turnover potential is the same as if he was creating for someone else...but instead he's creating the shot for himself.

The opposite is true. Jason's 7 highest turnover rates came in the 7 years of his lowest usage rates.

Interesting.

I still think the turnover rates for Rondo/Westbrook are very comparable because the two aren't far off in APG.

[BballTim]

  Westbrook takes 5 more jumpers a game than Rondo. Take those jumpers out of the comparison and the turnover numbers will skew in the other direction.

Either way, Westbrook is usually creating the jumpers for himself. It's not like a Ray Allen situation where he's being assisted by Rondo. The turnover potential is the same as if he was creating for someone else...but instead he's creating the shot for himself.

  I think it's highly unlikely that taking a jump shot, even if you dribble the ball a few times first, is anywhere near as likely to produce a turnover as a pass.

The opposite is true. Jason's 7 highest turnover rates came in the 7 years of his lowest usage rates.

Interesting.

I still think the turnover rates for Rondo/Westbrook are very comparable because the two aren't far off in APG.

  But, again, turnover rates are highly dependent on the number of shots you take. I doubt if 20% of Rondo's turnovers come from the shots he takes. Double the number of shots he takes and cut down on the number of passes he attempts and his turnover rate would drop like a stone.

 

[housecall]

Durant is saying all the right things to the media but i wonder what he's really saying and thinking beyond the lockerroom when with friends/family.Russell seems to want the same amount of ecalades Durant receives and thats not good. Russell has issues that will cause problems on most teams.

[soap07]

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  I think it's highly unlikely that taking a jump shot, even if you dribble the ball a few times first, is anywhere near as likely to produce a turnover as a pass.

Well - Consider that Rondo, who is, I would guess, 90% of the time not even guarded by the opposing team on offense .... has more to room pass, to see, drive, shoot, whatever.

Compare that to Westbrook, it's not like when he "dribbles the ball a few times", he has nearly the room to do it that Rondo does. It's not easy to dribble the ball and get around your defender to create space for yourself...it is absolutely susceptible to creating turnovers.

I think the amount of space Rondo gets (because of his inability to shoot) negates any sort of advantage in the turnover department that Westbrook gets because he scores more.

[BballTim]

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  I think it's highly unlikely that taking a jump shot, even if you dribble the ball a few times first, is anywhere near as likely to produce a turnover as a pass.

Well - Consider that Rondo, who is, I would guess, 90% of the time not even guarded by the opposing team on offense .... has more to room pass, to see, drive, shoot, whatever.

Compare that to Westbrook, it's not like when he "dribbles the ball a few times", he has nearly the room to do it that Rondo does. It's not easy to dribble the ball and get around your defender to create space for yourself...it is absolutely susceptible to creating turnovers.

I think the amount of space Rondo gets (because of his inability to shoot) negates any sort of advantage in the turnover department that Westbrook gets because he scores more.

  The amount of time Rondo's unguarded compared to other players is grossly exaggerated on this board. Not to mention that a large number of Westbrook's jumpers are going to be from transition, spot up jump shots or because whoever is guarding him is giving him too much room. He might be guarded somewhat more closely than Rondo, but let's not kid each other. Defenders aren't draped all over him like he's Kobe or PP or Ray. Don't forget, Westbrook doesn't exactly light it up from the outside. If he's dribbling around players to find seems to take jump shots then he's more of a detriment to an offense than many would guess.

[snively]

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  I think it's highly unlikely that taking a jump shot, even if you dribble the ball a few times first, is anywhere near as likely to produce a turnover as a pass.

Well - Consider that Rondo, who is, I would guess, 90% of the time not even guarded by the opposing team on offense .... has more to room pass, to see, drive, shoot, whatever.

Compare that to Westbrook, it's not like when he "dribbles the ball a few times", he has nearly the room to do it that Rondo does. It's not easy to dribble the ball and get around your defender to create space for yourself...it is absolutely susceptible to creating turnovers.

I think the amount of space Rondo gets (because of his inability to shoot) negates any sort of advantage in the turnover department that Westbrook gets because he scores more.

You're reaching with the anecdotal conjecture.  Westbrook is given plenty of space for that broken J.  Both guys attract equal attention when they drive.  Rondo just passes more. A lot more.  His assist rate (assists relative to usage) more than doubled Westbrook's this season. 

TOV% is tied to usage, which does not account for the passer unless the pass ends the possession with a turnover.  Of course it's going to be deeply flawed when used to analyze guys who specialize in passing. 

[JoT]

Durant is saying all the right things to the media but i wonder what he's really saying and thinking beyond the lockerroom when with friends/family.Russell seems to want the same amount of ecalades Durant receives and thats not good. Russell has issues that will cause problems on most teams.

I agree Durant needs to be more aggressive. He keeps saying the right things and keeps trying to sound like the good guy but he needs to demand the ball more. He shot horrible last night, but at the end of the day he's the one I would rather take the last shot then Westbrook. That's his team and he needs to demand the ball like it's his team. He needs to tell Russell he's Robin and not Batman.
I keep hearing it, but Russell is starting to be compared to Stephon Marbury and this is starting to remind people of the KG/Marbury issue in Minnesota.
Besides that I don't think there are issues at all between them. I just don't see Durant getting mad he seems too nice to be a Kobe or Jordan on his team.

[tenn_smoothie]

Rondo for Westbrook ? Ha - wouldn't Durant love that ?

so we already traded our starting center to OKC and helped them get to the West Finals so now you want to complete the deal and ship the whole battery west so that OKC can make the Finals next year while we deal with a headcase who thinks score, first, second and third and would not have as his top priority setting up Ray, Paul and KG. in fact, those three would probably have strangled the guy by the all-star break if they hadn't done the same to Danny first for destroying their championship team !!

[CelticsGuy34]

perk stinks and thunder will  regret paying him 9 mil per year soon enough

i liked perkins but it is what it is, hes not that good no more, and they would have gotten to the western finals with Jermaine Oneal

And rondo for westbrook is a fair trade for both teams,  please dont ask for ibaka that puts it terribly in our favor

[mahonedog88]

It does look weird considering we already traded our starting center to that team.  But honestly...I do think Danny needs to seriously think about doing that trade.  I'm not saying if it doesn't happen that we're doomed.  But if you really look at both teams individual situations, it really does make sense.

Granted the Thunder lose some offense, but Rondo is still a solid offensive player...granted a completely different style, but Rondo can still get it done on the offensive end.  But Durant having Rondo I think could make him a serious MVP threat.  And then for the Celtics, it won't help them I don't think as fast as it would on the Thunder side...but you figure, if we sign back Green, it helps get Russell acclimated to the team faster since he'll already have a former teammate on there.  And then you're looking at a few building block pieces for the future with Westbrook and Green to build around.

[KungPoweChicken]

It does look weird considering we already traded our starting center to that team.  But honestly...I do think Danny needs to seriously think about doing that trade.  I'm not saying if it doesn't happen that we're doomed.  But if you really look at both teams individual situations, it really does make sense.

Granted the Thunder lose some offense, but Rondo is still a solid offensive player...granted a completely different style, but Rondo can still get it done on the offensive end.  But Durant having Rondo I think could make him a serious MVP threat.  And then for the Celtics, it won't help them I don't think as fast as it would on the Thunder side...but you figure, if we sign back Green, it helps get Russell acclimated to the team faster since he'll already have a former teammate on there.  And then you're looking at a few building block pieces for the future with Westbrook and Green to build around.

I really don't think Rondo would help Durant's game that much since KD still largely creates his own offense and really hasn't learned to play without the ball yet. The reason why Rondo is successful in Boston is because Garnett, Allen, and Pierce are too old and slow to create their own shots, so they rely on Rondo to get the their shots. Shortly, Durant doesn't need anyone getting him shots. He just needs someone to get him the ball. Any point guard could do this. I don't see any special magic happening between Durant and Rondo.

[Surferdad]

It does look weird considering we already traded our starting center to that team.  But honestly...I do think Danny needs to seriously think about doing that trade.  I'm not saying if it doesn't happen that we're doomed.  But if you really look at both teams individual situations, it really does make sense.

Granted the Thunder lose some offense, but Rondo is still a solid offensive player...granted a completely different style, but Rondo can still get it done on the offensive end.  But Durant having Rondo I think could make him a serious MVP threat.  And then for the Celtics, it won't help them I don't think as fast as it would on the Thunder side...but you figure, if we sign back Green, it helps get Russell acclimated to the team faster since he'll already have a former teammate on there.  And then you're looking at a few building block pieces for the future with Westbrook and Green to build around.

I really don't think Rondo would help Durant's game that much since KD still largely creates his own offense and really hasn't learned to play without the ball yet. The reason why Rondo is successful in Boston is because Garnett, Allen, and Pierce are too old and slow to create their own shots, so they rely on Rondo to get the their shots. Shortly, Durant doesn't need anyone getting him shots. He just needs someone to get him the ball. Any point guard could do this. I don't see any special magic happening between Durant and Rondo.

You're on the right track here, but I would disagree with one subtle point.  The Big Three are NOT too old to create their own shots.  All 3 are capable at any time of doing that, but it's just not the C's game plan on the offensive end.  Doc uses a ball movement offense which is perfect foe a true PG like Rondo.  That said, I agree that Rondo would not help Durant very much for the reason you state.

[2short]

I think Rondo would help in one way, he'd get better looks for the other thunder which might open up the game a little more for durant. 
no way would i trade rondo for anyone but chris paul and before possible attitude issues deron williams

[BballTim]

It does look weird considering we already traded our starting center to that team.  But honestly...I do think Danny needs to seriously think about doing that trade.  I'm not saying if it doesn't happen that we're doomed.  But if you really look at both teams individual situations, it really does make sense.

Granted the Thunder lose some offense, but Rondo is still a solid offensive player...granted a completely different style, but Rondo can still get it done on the offensive end.  But Durant having Rondo I think could make him a serious MVP threat.  And then for the Celtics, it won't help them I don't think as fast as it would on the Thunder side...but you figure, if we sign back Green, it helps get Russell acclimated to the team faster since he'll already have a former teammate on there.  And then you're looking at a few building block pieces for the future with Westbrook and Green to build around.

I really don't think Rondo would help Durant's game that much since KD still largely creates his own offense and really hasn't learned to play without the ball yet. The reason why Rondo is successful in Boston is because Garnett, Allen, and Pierce are too old and slow to create their own shots, so they rely on Rondo to get the their shots. Shortly, Durant doesn't need anyone getting him shots. He just needs someone to get him the ball. Any point guard could do this. I don't see any special magic happening between Durant and Rondo.

  I think most if not all scorers in the league would benefit at least somewhat if they get easier looks at the basket. It would help not just KD but the rest of the team as well.