2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Roy H.]

Ray Allen has already proved he's okay scoring 16 or 17 points a night, and that's good. Stockton is another strong character guy who won't be troubles by losing a few assists and FGA's because Kobe is taking some of his touches.

I don't know if the Ray Allen just coming off the set of "He Got Game" would be ready to accept that role.

Give me your take on this (and this applies to several players):

In this "league", literally all the players are superstars compared to their peers of the time.  However, judged against each other, they're not.  Rather, there will still be some stars (Wilt, MJ, Larry), but some other guys who used to be stars will now be role players.  However, I think a lot of guys would adjust to that, who otherwise might not in the modern league.

I'm not explaining well, but think of it like this:  [Player X] was coddled his entire life because he's a "star".  Let's imagine, though, that he entered a world where his basketball skills were only average relative to his peers.  Would he still be a jerk, making demands?  If he's the 4th or 5th best player on his team, would he have still demanded to be the #1 option, or would circumstances have required him to accept a bench role?

Under my theory, nobody can be a "coach killer", because there's always a player to put you in your place who is better than you, and a player almost as good right behind you hoping to take your spot.  Under those specific circumstances, maybe [Player X] could have grown into a very good "microwave" type of player or otherwise adapt to a non-starring role.

[indeedproceed]

Ray Allen has already proved he's okay scoring 16 or 17 points a night, and that's good. Stockton is another strong character guy who won't be troubles by losing a few assists and FGA's because Kobe is taking some of his touches.

I don't know if the Ray Allen just coming off the set of "He Got Game" would be ready to accept that role.

Give me your take on this (and this applies to several players):

In this "league", literally all the players are superstars compared to their peers of the time.  However, judged against each other, they're not.  Rather, there will still be some stars (Wilt, MJ, Larry), but some other guys who used to be stars will now be role players.  However, I think a lot of guys would adjust to that, who otherwise might not in the modern league.

I'm not explaining well, but think of it like this:  [Player X] was coddled his entire life because he's a "star".  Let's imagine, though, that he entered a world where his basketball skills were only average relative to his peers.  Would he still be a jerk, making demands?  If he's the 4th or 5th best player on his team, would he have still demanded to be the #1 option, or would circumstances have required him to accept a bench role?

Under my theory, nobody can be a "coach killer", because there's always a player to put you in your place who is better than you, and a player almost as good right behind you hoping to take your spot.  Under those specific circumstances, maybe [Player X] could have grown into a very good "microwave" type of player or otherwise adapt to a non-starring role.

I think that generalization is just as flawed as saying that all the guys who were #1 options would not be able to tailor their games to be #3 options, or bench players.

Take the Kobe-Malone-Allen love triangle we got goin on here.

Kobe is obviously the dominant personality. Malone was no pushover, but he didn't have the need to dominant on a personal level Kobe had/has.

Ray Allen has never been a primadonna, but I imagine he will buck a bit if being told that he's a catch and shoot guy only now, especially if he's 28 years old and still one of the top 2 or 3 scorers in the league.

In the end though, I see them settling into a hierarchy of Kobe>Malone>Allen>Everyone else.

I don't have a degree in rocket appliances, but that's just how I see it.

[WeMadeIt17]

Ray Allen has already proved he's okay scoring 16 or 17 points a night, and that's good. Stockton is another strong character guy who won't be troubles by losing a few assists and FGA's because Kobe is taking some of his touches.

I don't know if the Ray Allen just coming off the set of "He Got Game" would be ready to accept that role.

Give me your take on this (and this applies to several players):

In this "league", literally all the players are superstars compared to their peers of the time.  However, judged against each other, they're not.  Rather, there will still be some stars (Wilt, MJ, Larry), but some other guys who used to be stars will now be role players.  However, I think a lot of guys would adjust to that, who otherwise might not in the modern league.

I'm not explaining well, but think of it like this:  [Player X] was coddled his entire life because he's a "star".  Let's imagine, though, that he entered a world where his basketball skills were only average relative to his peers.  Would he still be a jerk, making demands?  If he's the 4th or 5th best player on his team, would he have still demanded to be the #1 option, or would circumstances have required him to accept a bench role?

Under my theory, nobody can be a "coach killer", because there's always a player to put you in your place who is better than you, and a player almost as good right behind you hoping to take your spot.  Under those specific circumstances, maybe [Player X] could have grown into a very good "microwave" type of player or otherwise adapt to a non-starring role.

I think that generalization is just as flawed as saying that all the guys who were #1 options would not be able to tailor their games to be #3 options, or bench players.

Take the Kobe-Malone-Allen love triangle we got goin on here.

Kobe is obviously the dominant personality. Malone was no pushover, but he didn't have the need to dominant on a personal level Kobe had/has.

Ray Allen has never been a primadonna, but I imagine he will buck a bit if being told that he's a catch and shoot guy only now, especially if he's 28 years old and still one of the top 2 or 3 scorers in the league.

In the end though, I see them settling into a hierarchy of Kobe>Malone>Allen>Everyone else.

I don't have a degree in rocket appliances, but that's just how I see it.

Thats the way i look at it. Let Kobe be the main scorer and everyone else falls in line. Ray has proven he doesn't need the ball in his hands to play well. And someone made the point of Kobe setting screens for Ray and that not happening.. It wont because I dont want Kobe screening off the ball, I will rely on Ray beating defenders with his quick moves and screens coming from Malone and my Center. Other then that everyone seems pretty mixed on my team.

[StartOrien]

Ray Allen has already proved he's okay scoring 16 or 17 points a night, and that's good. Stockton is another strong character guy who won't be troubles by losing a few assists and FGA's because Kobe is taking some of his touches.

I don't know if the Ray Allen just coming off the set of "He Got Game" would be ready to accept that role.

Give me your take on this (and this applies to several players):

In this "league", literally all the players are superstars compared to their peers of the time.  However, judged against each other, they're not.  Rather, there will still be some stars (Wilt, MJ, Larry), but some other guys who used to be stars will now be role players.  However, I think a lot of guys would adjust to that, who otherwise might not in the modern league.

I'm not explaining well, but think of it like this:  [Player X] was coddled his entire life because he's a "star".  Let's imagine, though, that he entered a world where his basketball skills were only average relative to his peers.  Would he still be a jerk, making demands?  If he's the 4th or 5th best player on his team, would he have still demanded to be the #1 option, or would circumstances have required him to accept a bench role?

Under my theory, nobody can be a "coach killer", because there's always a player to put you in your place who is better than you, and a player almost as good right behind you hoping to take your spot.  Under those specific circumstances, maybe [Player X] could have grown into a very good "microwave" type of player or otherwise adapt to a non-starring role.

I'm taking the mental, maturity thing completely out of it and just simply looking at a look at overall skill-set and how that'd gel. I don't want to really consider ego's, maturity level because, besides being infinitely less fun, is just too hard to judge and too open to different interpretations.

In the example above, I'd have to imagine that the offense would require Ray to be more of a corner 3 shooter (I don't buy into him running off screens b/c the offense doesn't allow for it). It's not necessarily "his game" but I think theres enough evidence to support he's fully capable of doing this (though I'd argue in favor of a few other lesser shooters who've proven that this is what they do).

Long story short: I'm treating it like a video game. This is their attribute, this is how good they are at them, make a team out of it.

[mgent]

Ray Allen has already proved he's okay scoring 16 or 17 points a night, and that's good. Stockton is another strong character guy who won't be troubles by losing a few assists and FGA's because Kobe is taking some of his touches.

I don't know if the Ray Allen just coming off the set of "He Got Game" would be ready to accept that role.

Give me your take on this (and this applies to several players):

In this "league", literally all the players are superstars compared to their peers of the time.  However, judged against each other, they're not.  Rather, there will still be some stars (Wilt, MJ, Larry), but some other guys who used to be stars will now be role players.  However, I think a lot of guys would adjust to that, who otherwise might not in the modern league.

I'm not explaining well, but think of it like this:  [Player X] was coddled his entire life because he's a "star".  Let's imagine, though, that he entered a world where his basketball skills were only average relative to his peers.  Would he still be a jerk, making demands?  If he's the 4th or 5th best player on his team, would he have still demanded to be the #1 option, or would circumstances have required him to accept a bench role?

Under my theory, nobody can be a "coach killer", because there's always a player to put you in your place who is better than you, and a player almost as good right behind you hoping to take your spot.  Under those specific circumstances, maybe [Player X] could have grown into a very good "microwave" type of player or otherwise adapt to a non-starring role.

If we're talking about all these guys in the same world, wouldn't you have to throw out all the MVPs, DPOY, All-NBA teams?  All those wouldn't matter right, I mean how is Dirk an MVP if he's in the same time period as Jordan, Wilt, and Russel?

[Donoghus]

People are overanalyzing the heck out of this right now.

Paralysis by overanalysis. 

[StartOrien]

People are overanalyzing the heck out of this right now.

Paralysis by overanalysis. 

I don't know. I think these are interesting questions with some interesting responses. As long as everyones civil, I don't see the downside.

[GreenFaith1819]

Teams will have a tough time stopping Kobe, then the pick and roll, then Ray Ray from downtown. Good luck. I couldn't imagine ray running off screens with stockton with the ball and when you wanna colapse on Kobe dropping 50 on your head he kicks it to ray ray. Then you think ok We got ray covered then that leaves the lane for the pick and roll or kobe to do work. I think I've done a good job so far. I would like to read some thoughts on my team if yall don't mind.

You forgot to mention Karl setting some punishing picks!

[StartOrien]

Teams will have a tough time stopping Kobe, then the pick and roll, then Ray Ray from downtown. Good luck. I couldn't imagine ray running off screens with stockton with the ball and when you wanna colapse on Kobe dropping 50 on your head he kicks it to ray ray. Then you think ok We got ray covered then that leaves the lane for the pick and roll or kobe to do work. I think I've done a good job so far. I would like to read some thoughts on my team if yall don't mind.

You forgot to mention Karl setting some punishing picks!

Big elbow comin yo way

[mgent]

People are overanalyzing the heck out of this right now.

Paralysis by overanalysis. 

Well we're kind of forced to, no?  It's not like an entire career of observation can be easily narrowed to one year of skill, mentality, and personality for each respective player.

[Roy H.]

Ray Allen has already proved he's okay scoring 16 or 17 points a night, and that's good. Stockton is another strong character guy who won't be troubles by losing a few assists and FGA's because Kobe is taking some of his touches.

I don't know if the Ray Allen just coming off the set of "He Got Game" would be ready to accept that role.

Give me your take on this (and this applies to several players):

In this "league", literally all the players are superstars compared to their peers of the time.  However, judged against each other, they're not.  Rather, there will still be some stars (Wilt, MJ, Larry), but some other guys who used to be stars will now be role players.  However, I think a lot of guys would adjust to that, who otherwise might not in the modern league.

I'm not explaining well, but think of it like this:  [Player X] was coddled his entire life because he's a "star".  Let's imagine, though, that he entered a world where his basketball skills were only average relative to his peers.  Would he still be a jerk, making demands?  If he's the 4th or 5th best player on his team, would he have still demanded to be the #1 option, or would circumstances have required him to accept a bench role?

Under my theory, nobody can be a "coach killer", because there's always a player to put you in your place who is better than you, and a player almost as good right behind you hoping to take your spot.  Under those specific circumstances, maybe [Player X] could have grown into a very good "microwave" type of player or otherwise adapt to a non-starring role.

I think that generalization is just as flawed as saying that all the guys who were #1 options would not be able to tailor their games to be #3 options, or bench players.

Take the Kobe-Malone-Allen love triangle we got goin on here.

Kobe is obviously the dominant personality. Malone was no pushover, but he didn't have the need to dominant on a personal level Kobe had/has.

Ray Allen has never been a primadonna, but I imagine he will buck a bit if being told that he's a catch and shoot guy only now, especially if he's 28 years old and still one of the top 2 or 3 scorers in the league.

In the end though, I see them settling into a hierarchy of Kobe>Malone>Allen>Everyone else.

I don't have a degree in rocket appliances, but that's just how I see it.

That's what I'm saying, though.  Ray *isn't* one of the "top 2 or 3 scorers in the league" in this exercise.  He's maybe one of the top 30 or so, in a 12 team league.

It depends on how you view things.  If we're talking about taking each of the drafted players, putting them into a time machine right before their selected season, and having them play in a league, you probably get one set of results.  If we're imagining things as if all of these players grew up in the same era, and then competed against one another with the same set of skills that they demonstrated in their selected season, that's another.

[RebusRankin]

I disagree that Isiah is not a team player. Early Isiah, no, prime Isiah, champion and team player. Oh and if anybody disagrees McHale is ready to clothesline you. 

This is like the mother of all bar discussions and we're on round 4.

[Redz]

Nate Thurmond telling Rick Barry to "Get that shot outta here"

(thank goodness they canned this idea after David Thompson tore up his knee)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuEXo7gNk6k

[nickagneta]

Interesting concepts being thrown around but, you know what, it doesn't matter.

Its a subjective game and there are three panelists....for now. The panelists will see things the way they want and vote accordingly and the results will be what they will be.

I would save some of this in depth over-analysis for the team profiles at the end and answer the questions that panelists ask then.

Because for now, let's say Roy has been the dominant voice amongst the panelists. If you start catering your team to what he is saying you might only be pleasing one third, or one fifth or one seventh of the panelists and doing yourself a disservice.

Make the team you feel most comfortable with and that you like the most and that way you will be able to discuss it most intelligently and sway all the panelists to see what you see.

Yes, this does mean I might be adding more panelists or already have some that I have not announced.

[nickagneta]

I disagree that Isiah is not a team player. Early Isiah, no, prime Isiah, champion and team player. Oh and if anybody disagrees McHale is ready to clothesline you. 

This is like the mother of all bar discussions and we're on round 4.

I agree. I don't see Isiah as a "I have to be the main man/scorer" type player. I thought he was a great team player, a natural leader and floor general and a warrior for his size.

I was really surprised to see him go after some of the PGs that went before him.