2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Moranis]

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

Michael Jordan career 3PT% is 32.7
Lebron James career 3PT% is 32.9
Larry Bird career 3PT% is 37.6

Perception is not reality when it comes to Lebron.

Except that Lebron hasn't come close to reaching the peaks that those two have yet. 

Eyeball test.

so you are faulting Lebron for being consistent (though his last 3 seasons have all been above his career average) while Jordan was all over the place constantly going up and down.  Seems a bit harsh and unrealistic. 

Not really.

I just don't consider him on par with Bird & Jordan yet. He has the potential to be but he's not there yet and you can even argue he might never get there now with the supporting cast he has in Miami.  Just watching the way he plays the game right now when stacked up with what I've seen out of Bird & Jordan.  Jordan more so.  Its a case where there is more to the story than just numbers.  

If he was, he would've gone a heckuva lot earlier than pick #12 which leads me to believe I'm not the only one who feels this way. I don't fault you for pumping up the guy, though.  I would too if I drafted him.  And I do think where he was drafted was right on target.  

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have picked him at #1, I just think people let their dislike of him cloud their judgment.

[Donoghus]

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

Michael Jordan career 3PT% is 32.7
Lebron James career 3PT% is 32.9
Larry Bird career 3PT% is 37.6

Perception is not reality when it comes to Lebron.

Except that Lebron hasn't come close to reaching the peaks that those two have yet. 

Eyeball test.

so you are faulting Lebron for being consistent (though his last 3 seasons have all been above his career average) while Jordan was all over the place constantly going up and down.  Seems a bit harsh and unrealistic. 

Not really.

I just don't consider him on par with Bird & Jordan yet. He has the potential to be but he's not there yet and you can even argue he might never get there now with the supporting cast he has in Miami.  Just watching the way he plays the game right now when stacked up with what I've seen out of Bird & Jordan.  Jordan more so.  Its a case where there is more to the story than just numbers.  

If he was, he would've gone a heckuva lot earlier than pick #12 which leads me to believe I'm not the only one who feels this way. I don't fault you for pumping up the guy, though.  I would too if I drafted him.  And I do think where he was drafted was right on target.  

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have picked him at #1, I just think people let their dislike of him cloud their judgment.

I won't deny that, either.  There are quite a few people on this board that hate the guy and refuse to acknowledge anything positive about the guy. 

[Moranis]

What I'm saying is that the reason he's not perceived as a guy who could 'score from anywhere' is because of the volume of shots he's taking at a lower percentage.

His superstar peers in the modern era are both shooting at a higher percentage, as well as less per game.

Kobe Bryant, Derrick Rose, and Kevin Durant are in the same general range on 3PA's and % as Lebron is.

[mgent]

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

Michael Jordan career 3PT% is 32.7
Lebron James career 3PT% is 32.9
Larry Bird career 3PT% is 37.6

Perception is not reality when it comes to Lebron.

I was talking more about midrange, which LeBron has nothing on Jordan.

[StartOrien]

I've gotta run so I can't continue the debate. But before Nick loses his mind, Moranis you might wanna redact some of those players names

[WeMadeIt17]

I think Kobe not being in that top 8 is insane.. he is one of the best scorers ever plays decent D and is very clutch.. oh and a winner. If you want to go on talent alone Kobe is definitely a part of the top 8 players in NBA history

[mgent]

Yeah there's way too many mini-debates in this debate for me to really give a rebuttal, but my main point in making that statement was LeBron is too much of a one-dimensional scorer to be called an unstoppable offensive player.

LeBron and Jordan have similar 3pt percentages over their CAREERS, in different eras, and with a very different number of attempts, so what?  Jordan/Bird/Melo/Durant could do whatever they want because they can score from anywhere.  LeBron will always be forced to take jump shots.  He doesn't have free reign on the court, and thus I wouldn't say he could do anything he wants.

[Roy H.]

One clarification:  what year's rules are the teams playing under? 

[WeMadeIt17]

If I'm building a team filled w/ Hall of Famers, I'd pick Lebron over Kobe 100 times out of a 100

That's crazy kobe is a proven winner with another hall of famer in shaq you put another solid big man on my team with a pass first pg they wouldn't lose

[Donoghus]

One clarification:  what year's rules are the teams playing under? 

Was that ever established?

That's a whole new can of worms to open now.

[Who]

One clarification:  what year's rules are the teams playing under? 

Yeah, I was wondering that too. Hand-checking on the perimeter being of special interest.

[Roy H.]

One clarification:  what year's rules are the teams playing under? 

Was that ever established?

That's a whole new can of worms to open now.

Yeah, but I think we need some uniformity when evaluating teams. 

[Donoghus]

One clarification:  what year's rules are the teams playing under? 

Was that ever established?

That's a whole new can of worms to open now.

Yeah, but I think we need some uniformity when evaluating teams. 

Can you really establish it now, though?  The draft's already started.

Its something that could've influenced drafting in the first round.

[Who]

One clarification:  what year's rules are the teams playing under? 

Was that ever established?

That's a whole new can of worms to open now.

Yeah, but I think we need some uniformity when evaluating teams. 

Can you really establish it now, though?  The draft's already started.

Its something that could've influenced drafting in the first round.

I don't think it would change the first round's draft picks. I mean, which players out of those picks in the first round would you not choose for your team in favour of someone else due to the rules? 

I don't think there is anyone there that I'd change due to the rules used. Those guys selected are pretty much the top 12 players chosen no matter what rules you decide to go forward with.

It should greatly effect picks in future rounds though. It would be good to have a decision on that in place before future rounds begin.

[KCattheStripe]

If I had to pick a center [for an all-time best team], I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people.

-Michael Jordan.