2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Moranis]

I dont hate the LeBron pick
But as with Timmy I can think on others
who I am not allowed to pick that worth more than
LeDiva a in this kind of drafts.

Its not only about personal domination

True, but how many players in NBA History would have taken the 06/07 Cavs to the NBA Finals when swapped with Lebron.  That team was terrible.  Drew Gooden was the starting PF, Eric Snow and Boobie Gibsen were the PG tandem, Larry Hughes was the starting SG, with Big Z in the middle.  The bench was Marshall (at the end of his career), Varejao and Pavlovic (at the beginning), and Damon Jones.  Not terrible, but certainly nothing to write home about.  Lebron James single handedly took that awful team to the NBA Finals and I don't know how many people in NBA history could have (I would think Bird and Jordan could have, but I wouldn't bet on anyone else being able to).  Also should be noted Lebron was just 22 when that happened.  

People act like single players can just win championships, it just doesn't work that way.  Great players need great teams to win titles.  Lebron is finally on a great team and I fully expect the Heat to win a title this year.

[mgent]

Here's how I think the list goes based on pure talent

The top 7 are set in stone in my opinion:

1. MJ (although Russell is the best of all time if you put position into consideration)
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Big O

Rest is a little more subjective but I'd go

8.
9. Hakeem
10. Shaq

On pure talent? Gotta throw Lebron in that group, too. He is quickly approaching the "I can do anything I want", stage, as far as talent.

All he is missing is a Dream Shake or a Sky Hook.

Add a Title or Two to validate himself. The Green in me is wishing against that, though.

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

I agree with you on Larry and Magic - because they could post up. Carmelo posts up, too. But Durant? I think I've seen Lebron post up more this year that Durant has.

I also agree with you on the sealing off the paint statement - Lebron has posted up more this season, but he has room for improvement.

But passing wise? Rebounding? Yes - Lebron James is the total package...and deservingly so for his selection at number 12. I would've picked someone different, but I cannot disagree with the logic of the choice, though.

And Defensively he is better than Carmelo and Durant, at least from mine own eyes. Statistically that may be debatable, but until then I have to go with what I see.

My ONLY concern with Lebron over the years has been what's between his ears.....but that comes with maturity.

As a passer and a defender Lebron destroys those 2, and he even has a slight advantage in rebounding.

But I'd say a guy who can score from anywhere on the court, rather than a guy who relies so much on getting into the lane and is thus much easier to defend, would fit into the "I can do anything I want anytime I want" category better.

[Moranis]

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

Michael Jordan career 3PT% is 32.7
Lebron James career 3PT% is 32.9
Larry Bird career 3PT% is 37.6

Perception is not reality when it comes to Lebron.

[StartOrien]

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

Michael Jordan career 3PT% is 32.7
Lebron James career 3PT% is 32.9
Larry Bird career 3PT% is 37.6

Perception is not reality when it comes to Lebron.

Michael Jordan career 3 point attempts per game: 1.7
Larry Bird career 3 point attempts per game: 1.9
Lebron James career 3 point attempts per game: 4.2

[Donoghus]

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

Michael Jordan career 3PT% is 32.7
Lebron James career 3PT% is 32.9
Larry Bird career 3PT% is 37.6

Perception is not reality when it comes to Lebron.

Except that Lebron hasn't come close to reaching the peaks that those two have yet. 

Eyeball test.

[Moranis]

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

Michael Jordan career 3PT% is 32.7
Lebron James career 3PT% is 32.9
Larry Bird career 3PT% is 37.6

Perception is not reality when it comes to Lebron.

Michael Jordan career 3 point attempts per game: 1.7
Larry Bird career 3 point attempts per game: 1.9
Lebron James career 3 point attempts per game: 4.2

sure, but if anything that negates the point that was being made. 

[Moranis]

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

Michael Jordan career 3PT% is 32.7
Lebron James career 3PT% is 32.9
Larry Bird career 3PT% is 37.6

Perception is not reality when it comes to Lebron.

Except that Lebron hasn't come close to reaching the peaks that those two have yet. 

Eyeball test.

so you are faulting Lebron for being consistent (though his last 3 seasons have all been above his career average) while Jordan was all over the place constantly going up and down.  Seems a bit harsh and unrealistic. 

[StartOrien]

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

Michael Jordan career 3PT% is 32.7
Lebron James career 3PT% is 32.9
Larry Bird career 3PT% is 37.6

Perception is not reality when it comes to Lebron.

Michael Jordan career 3 point attempts per game: 1.7
Larry Bird career 3 point attempts per game: 1.9
Lebron James career 3 point attempts per game: 4.2

sure, but if anything that negates the point that was being made. 

I think it illustrates a different point - despite how incredibly talented he is as a player, arguably his biggest weakness is that he frequently is setting for shots he shouldn't be taking.

I know you can argue somewhat that we don't know the circumstance, but at his size and speed, why is he floating around the arc enough to be shooting over 4 3's a game?

[Redz]

3 point stats from the eras are really tough to compare

[Moranis]

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

Michael Jordan career 3PT% is 32.7
Lebron James career 3PT% is 32.9
Larry Bird career 3PT% is 37.6

Perception is not reality when it comes to Lebron.

Michael Jordan career 3 point attempts per game: 1.7
Larry Bird career 3 point attempts per game: 1.9
Lebron James career 3 point attempts per game: 4.2

sure, but if anything that negates the point that was being made. 

I think it illustrates a different point - despite how incredibly talented he is as a player, arguably his biggest weakness is that he frequently is setting for shots he shouldn't be taking.

I know you can argue somewhat that we don't know the circumstance, but at his size and speed, why is he floating around the arc enough to be shooting over 4 3's a game?

The game is different today then it was when Jordan and especially Bird played.  Bird absolutely would have been bombing threes at a similar clip to Lebron if he played today (look at Dirk, who was at close to 4 his first 8 seasons.  The game is just played differently now.

[GreenFaith1819]

Here's how I think the list goes based on pure talent

The top 7 are set in stone in my opinion:

1. MJ (although Russell is the best of all time if you put position into consideration)
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Big O

Rest is a little more subjective but I'd go

8.
9. Hakeem
10. Shaq

On pure talent? Gotta throw Lebron in that group, too. He is quickly approaching the "I can do anything I want", stage, as far as talent.

All he is missing is a Dream Shake or a Sky Hook.

Add a Title or Two to validate himself. The Green in me is wishing against that, though.

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

I agree with you on Larry and Magic - because they could post up. Carmelo posts up, too. But Durant? I think I've seen Lebron post up more this year that Durant has.

I also agree with you on the sealing off the paint statement - Lebron has posted up more this season, but he has room for improvement.

But passing wise? Rebounding? Yes - Lebron James is the total package...and deservingly so for his selection at number 12. I would've picked someone different, but I cannot disagree with the logic of the choice, though.

And Defensively he is better than Carmelo and Durant, at least from mine own eyes. Statistically that may be debatable, but until then I have to go with what I see.

My ONLY concern with Lebron over the years has been what's between his ears.....but that comes with maturity.

As a passer and a defender Lebron destroys those 2, and he even has a slight advantage in rebounding.

But I'd say a guy who can score from anywhere on the court, rather than a guy who relies so much on getting into the lane and is thus much easier to defend, would fit into the "I can do anything I want anytime I want" category better.

So are you mentioning Lebron as a pure shooter or scorer? He is certainly approaching the Elite Level, if he is not already there. Just trying to understand the debate a little better.

Just in the case of that Magic game this year where he scored 50..he was doing it from all over, if I remember correctly.

Like some who have mentioned here...Lebron has not reached his potential, yet, which is a little scary. That is what makes this pick at #12 so bold, and I applaud Moranis for it.

I think there is great potential to have a potent team around him in this draft, too. Still a lot of good choices left.

[Donoghus]

Disagree.  I don't know if LeBron will ever reach "I can do anything I want" because he struggles against defenses that can seal off the paint.  He doesn't have the shooting ability to make defenders pay for giving him the tiniest bit of space.  Without that he will never be as unstoppable scoring-wise as MJ or Bird, or even Melo or Durant.

Michael Jordan career 3PT% is 32.7
Lebron James career 3PT% is 32.9
Larry Bird career 3PT% is 37.6

Perception is not reality when it comes to Lebron.

Except that Lebron hasn't come close to reaching the peaks that those two have yet. 

Eyeball test.

so you are faulting Lebron for being consistent (though his last 3 seasons have all been above his career average) while Jordan was all over the place constantly going up and down.  Seems a bit harsh and unrealistic. 

Not really.

I just don't consider him on par with Bird & Jordan yet. He has the potential to be but he's not there yet and you can even argue he might never get there now with the supporting cast he has in Miami.  Just watching the way he plays the game right now when stacked up with what I've seen out of Bird & Jordan.  Jordan more so.  Its a case where there is more to the story than just numbers.  

If he was, he would've gone a heckuva lot earlier than pick #12 which leads me to believe I'm not the only one who feels this way. I don't fault you for pumping up the guy, though.  I would too if I drafted him.  And I do think where he was drafted was right on target.  

[StartOrien]

3 point stats from the eras are really tough to compare

But even comparing against his peers in a modern era, nobody shooting .32 from behind the line should be shooting over 4 3's a game.

[Edgar]

I think LeBron already picked, hes at his pick, mark this.

[StartOrien]

What I'm saying is that the reason he's not perceived as a guy who could 'score from anywhere' is because of the volume of shots he's taking at a lower percentage.

His superstar peers in the modern era are both shooting at a higher percentage, as well as less per game.