Doc Rivers is overrated

[nickagneta]

In truth though, Doc, the coaching staff and our players have always felt that it was all about how we played.

If things weren't going well it was because we were not running our stuff well.

This is why Doc doesn't do adjustments much.

He feels like "it wasn't more of what they did, but what we didn't do" in the game.

The thing is, it may be true...when we are healthy and have a complete roster.

If we are hurt and fatigued, we can't possibly expect us to correct our mistakes....this is when you have to make adjustments.

TP. Doc does kind of have a Vince Lombardi approach to coaching which is, our system is great and players for the system also great. If we run our stuff and run it right, no one can beat us.

That said:
- I hate his systematic approach to substitutions of having 4 or 5 bench players on the floor at one time for long stretches(end of the 1st period into the mid 2nd period and end of the 3rd period into the mid 4th period). Too many leads have disappeared during these stretches over the last three years of having poor benches to not recognize if the bench isn't solid then this type of substitution pattern is not going to work.
- His use of timeouts during games can frustrate the ever living hell out of me as he seems to call his timeouts at least 1-2 minutes to late to stem off surges by the other team. He has so much faith in this unit that sometimes he just expects them to stem the tide of emotion flowing the other way with good execution and he misses the perfect opportunity to stop the tide from turning the other way completely.
- He overuses Ray and Paul. Its just that simple. Granted, Danny hasn't done a stellar job of managing to find good players that can stay healthy behind these guys but he still overuses them.
- His love of some players when they go bad can be awful. Baby since February, Sam Cassell after he arrived, Eddie House for a good portion of last year, Mikki Moore in every game he played here, are some prime examples. Granted sometimes injuries dictate who gets played and who doesn't but this is definitely a bad trait of his. Tito Francona has the same problem with the Red Sox. Funny that they are good friends.

Overall though, Doc is a great coach. His defensive coaching and system are excellent. His motivational abilities might be the best in the game. His management of personalities and the press are exceptional. His young player development skills are tremendous. He is phenomenal at out of timeout play making. And the players on this team adore him as do most around the league. Doc is right now one of the three best coaches in the game and we are lucky to have him

[Celtics18]

As I said in my post, I do commend Doc on winning a title. But like I said, a number of coaches in this league would have won at least one title with this group.

Again, as I said in my post, these 5+ minute periods without a single good look at the basket are inexcusable, and reflect on Doc. A great coach wouldn't let that happen so often.

Tell me about a recent 5+ minute stretch of basketball where the Celtics didn't get a single good look.  

I hope your not referring to the end of game five against the Heat where we had two missed layups, a great look at a three by Ray Allen, and a good post up play by KG where he unfortunately didn't establish quite deep enough position.  

You're right, Game 5 of the Heat series isn't the best example, and that's why I referred to his entire tenure here in Boston, especially since KG and Killer Ray arrived. Off the top of my head...overtime of game 4, several times during the first two games of the Heat series, at least once in 3 of the games against the Knicks, Game 7 of the finals last year, Game 6 of the finals last year, and about 2,527 other times (in the regular season and the playoffs) that I can't specifically pinpoint off the top of my head. Especially over the past two years. Not sure this is even debatable.

I'll look at overtime of game 4 a little later to see what happened in that one.  All teams have offensive droughts. Of course, as Celtics fans when other teams go into droughts against us it's because of our defense.  Yet, when we go into droughts it's because Doc's a lousy coach.  

I happen to think we have one of the most beautiful, diversified, intelligent offenses in the league.  Unfortunately, sometimes over the course of the last 4 seasons it's been off it's rhythm.

That doesn't make Doc a terrible coach.
 

 

[kozlodoev]

Krstic - 23 minutes a game, 9.1 pts, 5.3 rebs, 53% shooting, PER 14.8
Baby - 29.5 minutes a game, 11.7 pts, 5.4 rebs, 45% shooting, PER 12.8

You are simply wrong.

Unlike Krstic, Davis actually understands and is able to execute the team defense. At the very least, he is a significantly more competent.

Uh, you've never seen Baby blow a defensive assignment?  You've never seen Baby helpless as a taller player simply shoots over him?  You've never seen Baby's man kill him on the offensive boards?  'Cause I've seen all of those things.

Jeff Green certainly wasn't any better when it came to team defense than Krstic, yet his minutes didn't completely vanish in the playoffs.

And according to the stats, Krstic was +55 in his +/- rating while Baby was +139.  However, Baby played 4 times as many minutes as Krstic did with Boston.  If Krstic simply maintained the same production (which koz derides) and played as many minutes as Baby, Krstic would have a +/- of +220 or so.

Again, you're simply wrong.

Mike

I may have seen Davis doing this on some possessions. I have definitely seen Krstic doing it on nearly _all_ possessions by the time he wasn't playing anymore.

Jeff Green has primarily been a wing for us, not a big. Wing defense is different -- you mostly guard on the ball, rather than off. And even if we assume he "hasn't been much better than Krstic" (which isn't really true), he plays a position of need. As in, his alternative is Sasha Pavlovic.

[MBunge]

Krstic - 23 minutes a game, 9.1 pts, 5.3 rebs, 53% shooting, PER 14.8
Baby - 29.5 minutes a game, 11.7 pts, 5.4 rebs, 45% shooting, PER 12.8

You are simply wrong.

Unlike Krstic, Davis actually understands and is able to execute the team defense. At the very least, he is a significantly more competent.

Uh, you've never seen Baby blow a defensive assignment?  You've never seen Baby helpless as a taller player simply shoots over him?  You've never seen Baby's man kill him on the offensive boards?  'Cause I've seen all of those things.

Jeff Green certainly wasn't any better when it came to team defense than Krstic, yet his minutes didn't completely vanish in the playoffs.

And according to the stats, Krstic was +55 in his +/- rating while Baby was +139.  However, Baby played 4 times as many minutes as Krstic did with Boston.  If Krstic simply maintained the same production (which koz derides) and played as many minutes as Baby, Krstic would have a +/- of +220 or so.

Again, you're simply wrong.

Mike

I may have seen Davis doing this on some possessions. I have definitely seen Krstic doing it on nearly _all_ possessions by the time he wasn't playing anymore.

The only time Krstic wasn't playing anyone was the playoffs.  In March, here are how many minutes Krstic played in each game.

21, 26, 29, 38, 34, 27, 19, 26, 13, 27, 26, 25, 17, 10.

If Doc was p---ed off at Krstic's defense, it either took him a long time to figure it out or he had a funny way of showing it.

And by the way, Jermaine O'Neal only played about 120 minutes less for Boston this year than Krstic did but while Nenad had an overall +/- of 55, Jermaine's +/- was 15.

And if you want to talk about Krstic missing defensive rotations, let's also talk about the way the team almost totally ignored Krstic on offense.  How many times did Krstic ever get the ball in the post to try and score?  How many times did Rondo or Ray or Paul or anyone run a pick-and-pop with Krstic?

Mike

[MBunge]

Jeff Green has primarily been a wing for us, not a big. Wing defense is different -- you mostly guard on the ball, rather than off. And even if we assume he "hasn't been much better than Krstic" (which isn't really true), he plays a position of need. As in, his alternative is Sasha Pavlovic.

And the alternative to Krstic was not KG.  It was Big Baby, who couldn't have played any worse against both NY and Miami if you'd cut off one of his feet.

Mike

[kozlodoev]

Jeff Green has primarily been a wing for us, not a big. Wing defense is different -- you mostly guard on the ball, rather than off. And even if we assume he "hasn't been much better than Krstic" (which isn't really true), he plays a position of need. As in, his alternative is Sasha Pavlovic.

And the alternative to Krstic was not KG.  It was Big Baby, who couldn't have played any worse against both NY and Miami if you'd cut off one of his feet.

I guess we just can agree to disagree.

It was pretty evident to me that Krstic won't be part of the playoff rotation when he started botching up virtually every single defensive rotation. I don't see much point arguing with you if you missed that -- we'll just waste tons of bandwidth with little results.

[MBunge]

Jeff Green has primarily been a wing for us, not a big. Wing defense is different -- you mostly guard on the ball, rather than off. And even if we assume he "hasn't been much better than Krstic" (which isn't really true), he plays a position of need. As in, his alternative is Sasha Pavlovic.

And the alternative to Krstic was not KG.  It was Big Baby, who couldn't have played any worse against both NY and Miami if you'd cut off one of his feet.

I guess we just can agree to disagree.

It was pretty evident to me that Krstic won't be part of the playoff rotation when he started botching up virtually every single defensive rotation. I don't see much point arguing with you if you missed that -- we'll just waste tons of bandwidth with little results.

Krstic played significant minutes on Thunder team that pushed the Lakers to 6 games last year.  He played significant minutes for Boston, until disappearing onto the bench in the playoffs.  The guy playing in Krstic's place stunk on ice.  But Doc had absolutely NO OTHER CHOICE but to do what he did.  Just like he had absolutely NO OTHER CHOICE than to play his rookie point guard only 23 minutes a game on a team that went 24-58, even though he was clearly the best PG on the roster.  Yup.  Absolutely no other possible decision could have been made there by Doc or anyone else.

Mike

[nickagneta]

Krstic played significant minutes towards the end of the year because the Celtics bigs rotation was down to Krstic, KG and Big Baby. Both O'Neals were out. When they came back Krstic was pushed down the bench each time.

Why does anyone think that is?

Its because his defense, which this team prides itself and any and all of its chances of winning a title on, was abysmal. Kov is 100% right about this. The only time I saw Krstic playing good defense all year was in Game 5 versus the Heat. Don't let the last thing he did become what he was doing all year.

BTW, +/- stats as defensive proof of a player's defensive capability is a notoriously horrendous and misleading statistic.

[Celtics18]

Krstic played significant minutes towards the end of the year because the Celtics bigs rotation was down to Krstic, KG and Big Baby. Both O'Neals were out. When they came back Krstic was pushed down the bench each time.

Why does anyone think that is?

Its because his defense, which this team prides itself and any and all of its chances of winning a title on, was abysmal. Kov is 100% right about this. The only time I saw Krstic playing good defense all year was in Game 5 versus the Heat. Don't let the last thing he did become what he was doing all year.

BTW, +/- stats as defensive proof of a player's defensive capability is a notoriously horrendous and misleading statistic.

I just have to step in defense of Nenad's defense.  He's no Perk, but his defense has been way too maligned around here. 

I always felt like his defense was solid in the minutes he got.  I actually thought he hedged and recovered on pick and rolls well, rotated well, and ran the floor well.  He's a big guy, but not an overwhelming physical presence.  Like everyone, he makes mistakes, but he's not as horrible a defender as he's portrayed around here. 

It's unfair to Curly.  A couple of loud voices proclaiming him "the worst defender in the league" somehow made it a truth on CelticsBlog.  I'm here to tell you it's not an absolute truth.

[nickagneta]

Krstic played significant minutes towards the end of the year because the Celtics bigs rotation was down to Krstic, KG and Big Baby. Both O'Neals were out. When they came back Krstic was pushed down the bench each time.

Why does anyone think that is?

Its because his defense, which this team prides itself and any and all of its chances of winning a title on, was abysmal. Kov is 100% right about this. The only time I saw Krstic playing good defense all year was in Game 5 versus the Heat. Don't let the last thing he did become what he was doing all year.

BTW, +/- stats as defensive proof of a player's defensive capability is a notoriously horrendous and misleading statistic.

I just have to step in defense of Nenad's defense.  He's no Perk, but his defense has been way too maligned around here. 

I always felt like his defense was solid in the minutes he got.  I actually thought he hedged and recovered on pick and rolls well, rotated well, and ran the floor well.  He's a big guy, but not an overwhelming physical presence.  Like everyone, he makes mistakes, but he's not as horrible a defender as he's portrayed around here. 

It's unfair to Curly.  A couple of loud voices proclaiming him "the worst defender in the league" somehow made it a truth on CelticsBlog.  I'm here to tell you it's not an absolute truth.

His defense, in other systems, is mediocre at best. In this system with its complicated rolling and switching, he was lost for most of the year. His size and length made up for some of what he didn't get but he was very very slow on rotations or just plain didn't make them, just not physical enough in his man defense denying position, bad at the blitz on the pick and roll up top and he was an average defensive rebounder at best especially given his size.

Is he the worst defender in the world? No. But in less complex defenses he's not average and in this defense he's not good.

[birdwatcher]

Krstic played significant minutes towards the end of the year because the Celtics bigs rotation was down to Krstic, KG and Big Baby. Both O'Neals were out. When they came back Krstic was pushed down the bench each time.

Why does anyone think that is?

Its because his defense, which this team prides itself and any and all of its chances of winning a title on, was abysmal. Kov is 100% right about this. The only time I saw Krstic playing good defense all year was in Game 5 versus the Heat. Don't let the last thing he did become what he was doing all year.

BTW, +/- stats as defensive proof of a player's defensive capability is a notoriously horrendous and misleading statistic.

I just have to step in defense of Nenad's defense.  He's no Perk, but his defense has been way too maligned around here. 

I always felt like his defense was solid in the minutes he got.  I actually thought he hedged and recovered on pick and rolls well, rotated well, and ran the floor well.  He's a big guy, but not an overwhelming physical presence.  Like everyone, he makes mistakes, but he's not as horrible a defender as he's portrayed around here. 

It's unfair to Curly.  A couple of loud voices proclaiming him "the worst defender in the league" somehow made it a truth on CelticsBlog.  I'm here to tell you it's not an absolute truth.

Like him or not, I think most people would have to agree that he was subject to some very unfair whistles. It was almost as though since he was considered the worst defender on the floor for us that the refs has to blow the whistle when someone got near him. It was like a NBA version of the board game "operation"--anytime he grazed someone's jersey the freakin' whistles would blow.

[the TRUTH]

As I said in my post, I do commend Doc on winning a title. But like I said, a number of coaches in this league would have won at least one title with this group.

Again, as I said in my post, these 5+ minute periods without a single good look at the basket are inexcusable, and reflect on Doc. A great coach wouldn't let that happen so often.

Tell me about a recent 5+ minute stretch of basketball where the Celtics didn't get a single good look.  

I hope your not referring to the end of game five against the Heat where we had two missed layups, a great look at a three by Ray Allen, and a good post up play by KG where he unfortunately didn't establish quite deep enough position.  

You're right, Game 5 of the Heat series isn't the best example, and that's why I referred to his entire tenure here in Boston, especially since KG and Killer Ray arrived. Off the top of my head...overtime of game 4, several times during the first two games of the Heat series, at least once in 3 of the games against the Knicks, Game 7 of the finals last year, Game 6 of the finals last year, and about 2,527 other times (in the regular season and the playoffs) that I can't specifically pinpoint off the top of my head. Especially over the past two years. Not sure this is even debatable.

I'll look at overtime of game 4 a little later to see what happened in that one.  All teams have offensive droughts. Of course, as Celtics fans when other teams go into droughts against us it's because of our defense.  Yet, when we go into droughts it's because Doc's a lousy coach.  

I happen to think we have one of the most beautiful, diversified, intelligent offenses in the league.  Unfortunately, sometimes over the course of the last 4 seasons it's been off it's rhythm.

That doesn't make Doc a terrible coach.
 

 

I never said Doc was a terrible coach. What I did say is that the regular offensive droughts we go on are largely his fault, that those lapses have cost us dearly the last two years, and that IMO he cannot be considered an elite NBA coach because of that.

Other teams do go through droughts, but how many of them are as talented as we are offensively? And do they suffer these droughts even against mediocre/poor defensive teams as well? Because we do. And like I said, I understand that no player or team is perfect. I'm fine with guys missing shots, as long as they're GOOD SHOTS. But we have had so many 5+ minute periods in his tenure where we don't get a single good shot, and that's on Doc. The typical pattern is: possession one - moving screen; possession two - turnover; possession three - a terrible look that misses badly or a shot clock violation; repeat for 5-8 minutes. Sound familiar to anyone?

[MBunge]

Krstic played significant minutes towards the end of the year because the Celtics bigs rotation was down to Krstic, KG and Big Baby.

Oh, for pete's sake.  Krstic played his first game for Boston on February 26th and continued to regularly play 25+ minutes a game until March 27th, after which his average minutes dropped into the teens.

In that stretch of games, the Celtics went 10-6.  Clearly, Krstic's defense was just killing the team.  He also in that stretch averaged 9.8 points and 6.1 rebounds.  Obviously, there was nothing he could have possibly contributed to the team if he'd averaged more than 6.3 minutes a game in the playoffs (5.1 minutes if you leave out the game 5 against Miami).  Nothing at all.

Mike

[MBunge]

His defense, in other systems, is mediocre at best. In this system with its complicated rolling and switching, he was lost for most of the year.

If your defensive system turns otherwise average defenders into completely unusable players...that's kind of a negative, no matter how effective it may be.

Mike

[barefacedmonk]

His defense, in other systems, is mediocre at best. In this system with its complicated rolling and switching, he was lost for most of the year.

If your defensive system turns otherwise average defenders into completely unusable players...that's kind of a negative, no matter how effective it may be.

Mike

So our defensive system is overrated?