Submit Your Chris Paul Ideas Here

[wdleehi]

I think its tough to use any DPOY and All NBA defense to support an argument. It's the gold glove of the NBA.

Agreed.  I was just using it to point out the Paul get the same defensive respect that Rondo does.  

[snively]

Here's Zack Lowe of SI's - who I think most everyone agrees is one of the best out there - take on my ludicrous statement about an inability to score

• How will they score?

This is the overarching issue. Boston’s offense ranked fifth in points per possession in 2008-09, 15th in 2009-10 and 19th this season. The trend is clear: As the Big Three get older, they are less able to create consistently, and Rondo, for all his gifts, cannot lift this offense to an acceptable level on a night-to-night basis. That’s not a knock, really; Chris Paul is in the same situation in New Orleans, albeit with a far less accomplished roster.

Of the eight teams that advanced to the second round of the playoffs, only Atlanta has scored fewer points per possession in the postseason. In three of five playoff games against Miami, the Celtics put up a points-per-possession mark that would have ranked last in the NBA — by far — in the regular season, according to Hoopdata.

Granted, he does slightly knock on CP3, but he correctly points out that he has a much less talented team which I think is a big issue.

The Big 3 were pretty much the same offensively in 08/09.  Rondo was much better that year (actually hit his free throws!).  The biggest difference between that season and this one is bench production. In 08/09, we were getting elite offensive bench production from Eddie House (record setting year from behind the arc) and Leon Powe (foul-drawing machine) and even Scal (didn't play much, but had the J working that year).  This season, we got practically nothing out of West due to injury, a drastically enlarged role for Baby - our worst bench scorer and a terrible season from Nate.  The terrible bench production, combined with Rondo's deep offensive slump post ASB contributed much more to the offensive decline than any decline in the big 3.

We need a bench that can score efficiently to get back to the heights of 08/09, not necessarily a younger big 3.

[BballTim]

Chris Paul is a superior player to Rondo in every aspect of the game. If the trade presents itself, you trade Rondo in a heartbeat.

  This from a guy who thinks Delonte is a much better pg than Rondo.

OK, well, I think Rondo is a much better PG than Delonte, but I also think Chris Paul is on another level from Rondo.  If you can make that trade, then you do it. 

  I'd agree that Paul is a better player than Rondo, but certainly not better in every aspect of the game.

Fair enough.  But I am not sure that matters.  Basketball is not an individuals skill contest.  It is about who plays basketball better, and that is Chris Paul.

  I agree it's not a skills contest, but it's overall contribution that matters. Going outside the Rondo/Paul debate, people who contribute less to an offense's success than Rondo are always considered better offensive players than Rondo by many here.

While I don't necessarily disagree (we have some wide ranging opinions on this forum, just like most forums), can you give some examples (not of posters, but of players who people think are better offensive players than Rondo)?

  I'm not going to search through old posts, but off the top of my head I'd start with Delonte and Felton, Eddie House and Nate Robinson on the list of players who could, according to some, replace Rondo without any dropoff on the offensive end.

Ah, well, what I would tell you then, is to stop putting much stock in the posts of people who go to the extremes like that.

  Haha. Good advice.

[BballTim]

I think its tough to use any DPOY and All NBA defense to support an argument. It's the gold glove of the NBA.

  What would you use? DRating? Defensive win shares? Opponent's production?

[BballTim]

How is Paul a lesser player defensively?  All defense 1st team once.  2nd team twice.  Lead the league in steal all but two of his seasons. 

  Rondo's all-defense first team twice, 2nd team once in 1 less years in the league. First team both of the last 2 years, getting more votes in both years than CP3 did in his first team year. Finished higher in DPOY voting in both of the last 2 years than CP3 ever has. I'd start there with my comparison.

So we are talking about the top two defensive PGs in the league.  One just happens to play next to KG, the other not. 


Not a big difference in defense.


So

Paul better
shooter (a lot)
scorer  (a lot)
passer  (a little)

Rondo better
rebounder (little)
defender (little)



Leadership.  Paul has been the leader of his team.  Rondo has not had the opportunity. 

Clutch situations.  Ball is in Paul's hands.  Ball is not usually in Rondo's hands.


Vs. Lakers.  Rondo neutralized.  Paul destroys. 


Teammates.  Rondo has the big three.  Paul usually has West. 

  Doc and all of the big three have all talked about Rondo's leadership of our offense. That's got to be harder to pull off than leading by default because you're the best player on your team.

[StartOrien]

I think its tough to use any DPOY and All NBA defense to support an argument. It's the gold glove of the NBA.

  What would you use? DRating? Defensive win shares? Opponent's production?

My knowledge of advanced statistics is admittedly pretty limited, particularly on the defensive end of things.

I'm forced to go by what I see, and what I see tells me that Kobe Bryant isn't one of the top 2 best defensive guards in the league.

[BballTim]

I think its tough to use any DPOY and All NBA defense to support an argument. It's the gold glove of the NBA.

  What would you use? DRating? Defensive win shares? Opponent's production?

My knowledge of advanced statistics is admittedly pretty limited, particularly on the defensive end of things.

I'm forced to go by what I see, and what I see tells me that Kobe Bryant isn't one of the top 2 best defensive guards in the league.

  Maybe. What about Dwight, KG, LeBron, TA, CP3, Chandler, Noah, Iggy and Rondo? How many of them would you think don't deserve to be there?

[StartOrien]

I think its tough to use any DPOY and All NBA defense to support an argument. It's the gold glove of the NBA.

  What would you use? DRating? Defensive win shares? Opponent's production?

My knowledge of advanced statistics is admittedly pretty limited, particularly on the defensive end of things.

I'm forced to go by what I see, and what I see tells me that Kobe Bryant isn't one of the top 2 best defensive guards in the league.

  Maybe. What about Dwight, KG, LeBron, TA, CP3, Chandler, Noah, Iggy and Rondo? How many of them would you think don't deserve to be there?

One. Want to guess which one?

[BballTim]

I think its tough to use any DPOY and All NBA defense to support an argument. It's the gold glove of the NBA.

  What would you use? DRating? Defensive win shares? Opponent's production?

My knowledge of advanced statistics is admittedly pretty limited, particularly on the defensive end of things.

I'm forced to go by what I see, and what I see tells me that Kobe Bryant isn't one of the top 2 best defensive guards in the league.

  Maybe. What about Dwight, KG, LeBron, TA, CP3, Chandler, Noah, Iggy and Rondo? How many of them would you think don't deserve to be there?

One. Want to guess which one?

  Well, we can clearly rule out CP3...

 

[BballTim]

I think its tough to use any DPOY and All NBA defense to support an argument. It's the gold glove of the NBA.

Agreed.  I was just using it to point out the Paul get the same defensive respect that Rondo does.  

  The same meaning less, of course.

[StartOrien]

It's actually 2, as Noah only played in 48 games this season. But I'd take Wade over Rondo, personally.

I only pointed this out to say that I don't care for the award, not to say that I don't believe Rondo is a terrific defensive player.

But ya, I do believe that Chris Paul is a slightly better defensive player than Rondo. Though, I'd concede that if Rondo truly focused and stay disciplined he'd be the better defender.

[BballTim]

It's actually 2, as Noah only played in 48 games this season. But I'd take Wade over Rondo, personally.

I only pointed this out to say that I don't care for the award, not to say that I don't believe Rondo is a terrific defensive player.

But ya, I do believe that Chris Paul is a slightly better defensive player than Rondo. Though, I'd concede that if Rondo truly focused and stay disciplined he'd be the better defender.

  How many Hornets games do you watch? Are you sure that CP always stays focused and disciplined on defense?

 

[StartOrien]

It's actually 2, as Noah only played in 48 games this season. But I'd take Wade over Rondo, personally.

I only pointed this out to say that I don't care for the award, not to say that I don't believe Rondo is a terrific defensive player.

But ya, I do believe that Chris Paul is a slightly better defensive player than Rondo. Though, I'd concede that if Rondo truly focused and stay disciplined he'd be the better defender.

  How many Hornets games do you watch? Are you sure that CP always stays focused and disciplined on defense?

  

Obviously not as many as the Celtics, but I'd say I've watched a pretty decent chunk. At least 30 games I'd say.

[BballTim]

It's actually 2, as Noah only played in 48 games this season. But I'd take Wade over Rondo, personally.

I only pointed this out to say that I don't care for the award, not to say that I don't believe Rondo is a terrific defensive player.

But ya, I do believe that Chris Paul is a slightly better defensive player than Rondo. Though, I'd concede that if Rondo truly focused and stay disciplined he'd be the better defender.

  How many Hornets games do you watch? Are you sure that CP always stays focused and disciplined on defense?

  

Obviously not as many as the Celtics, but I'd say I've watched a pretty decent chunk. At least 30 games I'd say.

  Ok, that's more than I've seen, but I still think Rondo's somewhat better.

[StartOrien]

Ok, that's more than I've seen, but I still think Rondo's somewhat better.

Does it really matter? We're going back to what was pointed out pretty extensively before: Their defensive and rebounding abilities are very comparable.

It's the shooting and ability to take care of the ball that separates the two. And I think those two things would greatly improve this Celtics team in the present and moving forward