Let's Assume Rebuilding Begins in Earnest This Summer

[KGDunks]

I think it depends on what happens now. If we lose this series it may be time to rebuild or add a few younger players. If we win this series and go on to the finals we may just need to add a few pieces and give it one more year and wait for the 2012 off season.

[LooseCannon]

No, we probably wouldn't get a star in return for Ray Allen or KG.  But if we can get the rights to a young role player with starter potential that could be a good trading piece or a supporting piece of the puzzle sometime in the future, along with mid to late first round draft picks or good second round draft picks, that's the sort of thing you have to seriously consider.

To trade a veteran with a big expiring contract for something like that, you usually have to take back salary in the form of someone signed to a bad contract that extends beyond 2012.  It's not just because you need to match salaries but because the desirable pieces are compensation for trading an expiring contract for a bad non-expiring contract. 

Would you trade KG and Ray Allen for a young role player with upside and a couple of draft picks if you had to take back someone like Gilbert Arenas and his contract to do so?

[snively]

The best players - Paul and Howard both belong in this category - are really only good enough to put a team in that "not good enough to contend but too good to land a great draft pick" territory.  But if you have the means to grab two stars, then you can really contend.

I disagree with this.

Dwight Howard brought his team to the NBA Finals two years ago. In terms of starters, they had a top 10 PF, a top 15 PG and a top 15 SF and good bench (elite backup C, elite backup wing). Sprinkle a little more talent on that squad and they could have won a title.

The only reason the Magic are stuttering so much now is that they have a very weak supporting cast around him after their mid-season trades.

Chris Paul's New Orleans Hornets were close to a title a few years ago. They didn't have enough but they were close. Paul had three guys who were borderline All-Stars or a notch below All-Star status really alongside him. A top ten center in Tyson Chandler, a top 15 PF in David West and the last good year out of Peja Stojakovic and Peja was only really a mediocre starting SF at that point. If Peja was able to do a little more and/or if New Orleans had more depth ... they would have won the West that year.

Both of those guys, Chris Paul and Dwight Howard, are capable of fielding a legitimate title contender and winning a title without a second superstar alongside them.

Obviously, their chances improve significantly if their respective clubs could land a true superstar to play alongside them. Top tier talent is always preferable. The more the better.

But it's not an absolute necessity ... their teams are still capable of getting the job done without second/third superstar.

The 2003 Spurs are a good case in point.  Duncan was the only truly dominant player on that Spurs team.  Robinson was much diminished, Parker and Manu were green and playing roles similar to Rondo in 2008, and Stephen Jackson was an inefficient gunner.

The Net team they faced that year was also an example of a very successful team with essentially one star.  They didn't need another superstar to get over the hump, just a slightly less offensively incompetent supporting cast (Jason Collins saw way too many minutes for them).

Indeed those Nets teams would be my model for rebuilding a contending team around Rondo and the aging big 3 going forward (unless of course the CP3 in trade + Howard in free agency rebuild plan is anything other than a Celtic fan-tasy). Tough, energetic defensive players who can rebound, play with speed or strength and finish on the move.  Anderson Varejao, Jonas Jerebko, George Hill, Landry Fields, Delonte West, Jared Dudley, Marcin Gortat, Chuck Hayes...  Match a group of players like that with Rondo (and maybe an old Pierce for a few seasons) and toss in a designated volume scorer or two (like a Jamal Crawford, Ben Gordon, Lou Williams, Marcus Thornton, Michael Beasley) to try and produce some points out of the occasional iso set...

I think that could be an excellent team that could be forged from lower-level free agent signings, trades and the draft.

That sounds nice, but as we saw with the Nets that's not an effective long term strategy for success.  It got them a couple Finals berths when the East was relatively weak compared to the West.

I just really question the wisdom of building a team around a seriously limited offensive player.  A franchise player has to be special for his position on both ends of the court, and really special on at least one end.

Rondo is pretty special on both ends, just not in an orthodox way.  Just because New Jersey failed to build a decent team around Kidd (letting Kenyon Martin go, depending on the woeful frontcourt of Jason Collins, Uncle Cliff and Krstic) doesn't mean it couldn't have been done.

[Moranis]

The best players - Paul and Howard both belong in this category - are really only good enough to put a team in that "not good enough to contend but too good to land a great draft pick" territory.  But if you have the means to grab two stars, then you can really contend.

I disagree with this.

Dwight Howard brought his team to the NBA Finals two years ago. In terms of starters, they had a top 10 PF, a top 15 PG and a top 15 SF and good bench (elite backup C, elite backup wing). Sprinkle a little more talent on that squad and they could have won a title.

The only reason the Magic are stuttering so much now is that they have a very weak supporting cast around him after their mid-season trades.

Chris Paul's New Orleans Hornets were close to a title a few years ago. They didn't have enough but they were close. Paul had three guys who were borderline All-Stars or a notch below All-Star status really alongside him. A top ten center in Tyson Chandler, a top 15 PF in David West and the last good year out of Peja Stojakovic and Peja was only really a mediocre starting SF at that point. If Peja was able to do a little more and/or if New Orleans had more depth ... they would have won the West that year.

Both of those guys, Chris Paul and Dwight Howard, are capable of fielding a legitimate title contender and winning a title without a second superstar alongside them.

Obviously, their chances improve significantly if their respective clubs could land a true superstar to play alongside them. Top tier talent is always preferable. The more the better.

But it's not an absolute necessity ... their teams are still capable of getting the job done without second/third superstar.

The 2003 Spurs are a good case in point.  Duncan was the only truly dominant player on that Spurs team.  Robinson was much diminished, Parker and Manu were green and playing roles similar to Rondo in 2008, and Stephen Jackson was an inefficient gunner.

The Net team they faced that year was also an example of a very successful team with essentially one star.  They didn't need another superstar to get over the hump, just a slightly less offensively incompetent supporting cast (Jason Collins saw way too many minutes for them).

Indeed those Nets teams would be my model for rebuilding a contending team around Rondo and the aging big 3 going forward (unless of course the CP3 in trade + Howard in free agency rebuild plan is anything other than a Celtic fan-tasy). Tough, energetic defensive players who can rebound, play with speed or strength and finish on the move.  Anderson Varejao, Jonas Jerebko, George Hill, Landry Fields, Delonte West, Jared Dudley, Marcin Gortat, Chuck Hayes...  Match a group of players like that with Rondo (and maybe an old Pierce for a few seasons) and toss in a designated volume scorer or two (like a Jamal Crawford, Ben Gordon, Lou Williams, Marcus Thornton, Michael Beasley) to try and produce some points out of the occasional iso set...

I think that could be an excellent team that could be forged from lower-level free agent signings, trades and the draft.

That sounds nice, but as we saw with the Nets that's not an effective long term strategy for success.  It got them a couple Finals berths when the East was relatively weak compared to the West.

I just really question the wisdom of building a team around a seriously limited offensive player.  A franchise player has to be special for his position on both ends of the court, and really special on at least one end.

Rondo is pretty special on both ends, just not in an orthodox way.  Just because New Jersey failed to build a decent team around Kidd (letting Kenyon Martin go, depending on the woeful frontcourt of Jason Collins, Uncle Cliff and Krstic) doesn't mean it couldn't have been done.

Rondo is not pretty decent on the offensive end.  He is well below average, which is one of the main reasons the Celtics lost the first two games in this series.

The Nets were done.  They had just lost to Detroit, which was better in just about all facets and that is when they let Kenyon go.  It was apparent that team wasn't going anywhere, especially with Kidd already being 30.

Unless you have Magic Johnson or Isiah Thomas you don't win championships building around a PG and each of those teams had a team full of great players around them.

[BballTim]

Rondo is not pretty decent on the offensive end.  He is well below average, which is one of the main reasons the Celtics lost the first two games in this series.

  Rondo's offensive play isn't the main reason we lost the first two games. And saying he's well below average is a matter of opinion. The offense plays much better when he's in the game and he's been getting 16-18 points a game in the playoffs the last 3 years, which isn't bad for someone who averages 10+ assists.

Unless you have Magic Johnson or Isiah Thomas you don't win championships building around a PG and each of those teams had a team full of great players around them.

  This is just semantics. We didn't build the Celts around PP, we just added other great players to the team. Same way the current Heat team isn't built around Wade or LeBron.

[footey]

If we win it all this year (still quite possible), there will be no re-building, just coaxing Shaq to play one more season, and get in good shape. If we don't, let the rebuilding begin.

[mc34]

Rondo is not a superstar on his own, but if he's paired with a legitimate superstar, that pretty much works out as having two of them. Also while we're talking about Portland, I think we should give Greg Oden a chance, as long as we don't overpay too much. Still a lot of potential.

[barefacedmonk]

Also while we're talking about Portland, I think we should give Greg Oden a chance, as long as we don't overpay too much. Still a lot of potential.

Wasn't he offered a fat contract last week? Or was it just a rumour?

[snively]

Rondo is pretty special on both ends, just not in an orthodox way.  Just because New Jersey failed to build a decent team around Kidd (letting Kenyon Martin go, depending on the woeful frontcourt of Jason Collins, Uncle Cliff and Krstic) doesn't mean it couldn't have been done.

Rondo is not pretty decent on the offensive end.  He is well below average, which is one of the main reasons the Celtics lost the first two games in this series.

The Nets were done.  They had just lost to Detroit, which was better in just about all facets and that is when they let Kenyon go.  It was apparent that team wasn't going anywhere, especially with Kidd already being 30.

Unless you have Magic Johnson or Isiah Thomas you don't win championships building around a PG and each of those teams had a team full of great players around them.

1.  Rondo is an average to below average scorer (depending on how well he's shooting his free throws).  But scoring isn't everything.  Rondo's one of the very best transition offense weapons in the league and a fantastic floor general.  This is offense too.  Very similar to Kidd in his prime in this way.

2. The Nets shouldn't have been "done."  They had just finished taking the eventual world champs to 7 games (the best showing any playoff team had against that Pistons team).  Kidd wasn't slowing down in the near future(he went on to average a triple double for the playoffs at age 33!), Martin and Jefferson were in their mid 20s, Kittles was still productive (but overpaid).  Their combination of fearsome defense and transition offense had earned them 2 finals appearance and a heavyweight playoff showing.

The main problem keeping from ever making it over the hump in their 3 contending years with the Kidd wasn't the lack of an offensive superstar (they got one in Vince Carter the next year and got worse), it was their terrible judgment/luck in staffing their center position.  From Todd MacCulloch to severely broken-down versions of Mutombo and Alonzo Mourning (both of them barely played), resulting in long stretches of Jason Collins (perhaps the worst offensive center and one of the worst rebounding centers of his era).

It's a shame that Krstic came along after Martin left.  A Martin-Krstic frontcourt would have allowed them to field a more potent offensive line-up and sustain their transition attack (the Krstic/Collins frontcourt greatly limited Kidd in transition).

[mc34]

Also while we're talking about Portland, I think we should give Greg Oden a chance, as long as we don't overpay too much. Still a lot of potential.

Wasn't he offered a fat contract last week? Or was it just a rumour?

Huh. Didn't hear that one. If anyone's got a link to this...?

[Moranis]

Also while we're talking about Portland, I think we should give Greg Oden a chance, as long as we don't overpay too much. Still a lot of potential.

Wasn't he offered a fat contract last week? Or was it just a rumour?

Huh. Didn't hear that one. If anyone's got a link to this...?

Mike Conley Sr. said yesterday that Oden is going to play next year, but just wasn't sure if it would be in Portland, which seems to indicate to me if he was offered something it couldn't have been too good to pass up.

EDIT: I guess I should have mentioned Mike Conley Sr. is Oden's agent.

[clover]

Rondo is not a superstar on his own, but if he's paired with a legitimate superstar, that pretty much works out as having two of them. Also while we're talking about Portland, I think we should give Greg Oden a chance, as long as we don't overpay too much. Still a lot of potential.

Middling contracts when you need to rebuild are a killer.

[Who]

Also while we're talking about Portland, I think we should give Greg Oden a chance, as long as we don't overpay too much. Still a lot of potential.

Wasn't he offered a fat contract last week? Or was it just a rumour?

There was no offer. It was a rumour.

And the rumour didn't even come from anywhere involved in the negotiations. It came from a Eastern Conference GM.

[Who]

Also while we're talking about Portland, I think we should give Greg Oden a chance, as long as we don't overpay too much. Still a lot of potential.

Wasn't he offered a fat contract last week? Or was it just a rumour?

Huh. Didn't hear that one. If anyone's got a link to this...?

Mike Conley Sr. said yesterday that Oden is going to play next year, but just wasn't sure if it would be in Portland, which seems to indicate to me if he was offered something it couldn't have been too good to pass up.

EDIT: I guess I should have mentioned Mike Conley Sr. is Oden's agent.

There are reports that Oden wants to leave Portland. That he wants a fresh start.

That he'd rather join a new team than stay with the Blazers.

Somewhere away from the injuries and bad memories + away from all the upset fans + the huge pressure that Oden has been under from day one. The pressure that he has failed to live up to (due to injuries).

[xmuscularghandix]

Somebody with value has to be traded. Do other teams think any of the Big 3 are valuable enough to give up prospects for him?