Great come back but...the Refs gave us that game in the end...

[Tai]

celtics slump, fans complain

Danny makes a trade, and we lose our "gusto", fans complain

celtics win a heroic victory that sets the pace for their entire playoff run,  fans complain

I'm sorry, but is the original poster an angry Felger or something, trying to rain on the "greenteamers" parade?

You my sir, have my vote for "Worst thread Ever". 

Like I said, it's hard to take a thread like this seriously after others thought the refs would screw us and for all I know still think so.

[dasani]

um seriously? melo is the reason why the knicks lost. talk about wasted possession. it was anybody's game at that moment. also there was more than a few questionable calls given to the knicks that kept them in the game if I recall.

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

Sorry, but as Steve Kerr pointed out the refs were letting them play at that point. That pass into Carmelo gets picked by Pierce had Carmelo not committed the foul. I think it's the first call I can remember Pierce getting in forever. Way to go Captain Truth!

[chambers]

celtics slump, fans complain

Danny makes a trade, and we lose our "gusto", fans complain

celtics win a heroic victory that sets the pace for their entire playoff run,  fans complain

I'm sorry, but is the original poster an angry Felger or something, trying to rain on the "greenteamers" parade?

You my sir, have my vote for "Worst thread Ever". 

Lets see..
1)I'm a fan of the trade..I think it was the correct decision at the time and surrounding circumstances and defended it god-knows-how-many times.
2)I've backed up Rondo throughout his slump through the trash heap he was thrown in on this board.
3)I've defended Big Baby in countless threads.

I'm a realistic, extremely knowledgeable basketball fan and player.

If you think that call on Carmelo was deserved then you're kidding yourself. This is the playoffs and the ref was on the other side of Pierce and Melo, making a call over NOTHING.

KG BLATANTLY steps out and sets that pick, causing Douglas to fall over. Douglas is not known as a flopper. Did you see KG's reaction - he looked at the ref like 'holy $%#*, please don't call that a moving screen'.

The refs failed to do their job at the most critical point of the game on multiple occasions. This isn't the first time this has happened. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that we didn't hustle our hearts out to get back in the game and put ourselves in a position to win. But without those two critical incorrect decisions, we probably don't win that game- something I want Celtics fans to think about and remember.

[dasani]

folks pick on this game but probably think that the Bulls and Heat first games were called fairly. unbelievable. one of the characteristics of bad officiating is always at the foul line. the discrepancy isn't there as it was in those other teams games. look again. knicks got away with their fair share of calls too. that's why I don't take anything away from this win.

[dtrader]

There aren't 10 million moving screens a game, where the screeners poked out elbow and foot cause the opposing player to be leveled to the ground, making him unable to recover to his assignment =/....Those are pretty much always called.

There were missed calls against the C's too, but nothing anywhere near as blatant as the illegal screen by KG, and I think the offensive foul they called on Melo basically made up for any issues we could have had with prior calls. That offensive foul is something NEVER called against a star...let alone in that situation with the game on the line.

If the Knicks fans are saying the refs gave us that game, I wouldn't disagree. I'd just say thats why you fight for homecourt, and we'll see you back at MSG.

Those are called against stars all the time, including against players better than Melo.

Being a star is irrelevant. Throwing an obvious and unmistakable forearm is what is relevant. You can't get away with that easily in an iso play which is slow moving and easy to watch develop.

It is a bit bizarre that people would reference an obviously correct call as a way to complain about refs. It shows how there really is nothing that refs can do to please certain people.

I'm sorry, but that's just NOT a call thats made often at all. Melo did NOT "throw a forearm" lol. He used his arm to make space with PP (who was all over his back). PPs defense was solid (and legal), and Melo making space was normal.  What they called had absolutely nothing to do with the play. It's not as if Melos move to make space, made it so that PP couldnt still defend him. It also didn't give Melo much (if any) advantage to start his offensive.  It also wasn't as if (as someone else said), PP would have stolen the ball if not for melos arm.  Melo had already caught the ball cleanly, and turned his back to paul.  The foul was called while Melos back was to him...not a position PP was likely to make a steal from.

As many people have said, there were lots of missed calls both ways, as the refs seemed to be letting them play.  Especially in a situation where the refs are "letting them play", a move as passive as that should never get a whistle. That goes double for the last minute of a close game, where that whistle could be the deciding factor.


If the refs are letting them play, then the no call on KGs pick is fine.  If they're calling it real tight, then maybe there's a place for the offensive foul call on Melo...but there's no way within the realm of "reasonable officiating", that both calls make sense. 

If (in the last 2 minutes of a close game) one team is the benefactor of both the non-calls AND the questionable calls...thats when you can say the refs gave them the game. You can say there were other calls at other points in the game, that were bad for the celts, but none were as blatant (or meaningful to the games decision) as the calls in the last 2 minutes that went against the Knicks. 

I'm not mad about it at all, because my team won, but I think if we can point fingers at the refs for the games they screw us out of, we should also be able to recognize the games they aid us in.

[chambers]

There aren't 10 million moving screens a game, where the screeners poked out elbow and foot cause the opposing player to be leveled to the ground, making him unable to recover to his assignment =/....Those are pretty much always called.

There were missed calls against the C's too, but nothing anywhere near as blatant as the illegal screen by KG, and I think the offensive foul they called on Melo basically made up for any issues we could have had with prior calls. That offensive foul is something NEVER called against a star...let alone in that situation with the game on the line.

If the Knicks fans are saying the refs gave us that game, I wouldn't disagree. I'd just say thats why you fight for homecourt, and we'll see you back at MSG.

Those are called against stars all the time, including against players better than Melo.

Being a star is irrelevant. Throwing an obvious and unmistakable forearm is what is relevant. You can't get away with that easily in an iso play which is slow moving and easy to watch develop.

It is a bit bizarre that people would reference an obviously correct call as a way to complain about refs. It shows how there really is nothing that refs can do to please certain people.

I'm sorry, but that's just NOT a call thats made often at all. Melo did NOT "throw a forearm" lol. He used his arm to make space with PP (who was all over his back). PPs defense was solid (and legal), and Melo making space was normal.  What they called had absolutely nothing to do with the play. It's not as if Melos move to make space, made it so that PP couldnt still defend him. It also didn't give Melo much (if any) advantage to start his offensive.  It also wasn't as if (as someone else said), PP would have stolen the ball if not for melos arm.  Melo had already caught the ball cleanly, and turned his back to paul.  The foul was called while Melos back was to him...not a position PP was likely to make a steal from.

As many people have said, there were lots of missed calls both ways, as the refs seemed to be letting them play.  Especially in a situation where the refs are "letting them play", a move as passive as that should never get a whistle. That goes double for the last minute of a close game, where that whistle could be the deciding factor.


If the refs are letting them play, then the no call on KGs pick is fine.  If they're calling it real tight, then maybe there's a place for the offensive foul call on Melo...but there's no way within the realm of "reasonable officiating", that both calls make sense. 

If (in the last 2 minutes of a close game) one team is the benefactor of both the non-calls AND the questionable calls...thats when you can say the refs gave them the game. You can say there were other calls at other points in the game, that were bad for the celts, but none were as blatant (or meaningful to the games decision) as the calls in the last 2 minutes that went against the Knicks. 

I'm not mad about it at all, because my team won, but I think if we can point fingers at the refs for the games they screw us out of, we should also be able to recognize the games they aid us in.

exactly...
I'm glad we got the calls- I just think they were blatantly incorrect and I hope Celtic Nation remembers this if we lose a game under similar circumstances this playoffs- particularly newer fans who are following the C's entire playoff run for the first time.
As dtrader correctly points out, the calls were both opposites of each other. You either let both of them go or you call them both.
I'm just glad the NBA wants a Lakers v Celtics finals rematch this year! (just kidding).

[fairweatherfan]

I'm just glad the NBA wants a Lakers v Celtics finals rematch this year! (just kidding).

Come on, everyone knows David Stern hates big-market teams with decades of history, mainstream popularity, 5 of the top 15 jersey sellers, and the biggest rivalry in league history.  Surely he is scheming this very moment to prevent such a team from succeeding in the postseason.

[Jaycelt]

There aren't 10 million moving screens a game, where the screeners poked out elbow and foot cause the opposing player to be leveled to the ground, making him unable to recover to his assignment =/....Those are pretty much always called.

There were missed calls against the C's too, but nothing anywhere near as blatant as the illegal screen by KG, and I think the offensive foul they called on Melo basically made up for any issues we could have had with prior calls. That offensive foul is something NEVER called against a star...let alone in that situation with the game on the line.

If the Knicks fans are saying the refs gave us that game, I wouldn't disagree. I'd just say thats why you fight for homecourt, and we'll see you back at MSG.

Those are called against stars all the time, including against players better than Melo.

Being a star is irrelevant. Throwing an obvious and unmistakable forearm is what is relevant. You can't get away with that easily in an iso play which is slow moving and easy to watch develop.

It is a bit bizarre that people would reference an obviously correct call as a way to complain about refs. It shows how there really is nothing that refs can do to please certain people.

I'm sorry, but that's just NOT a call thats made often at all. Melo did NOT "throw a forearm" lol. He used his arm to make space with PP (who was all over his back). PPs defense was solid (and legal), and Melo making space was normal.  What they called had absolutely nothing to do with the play. It's not as if Melos move to make space, made it so that PP couldnt still defend him. It also didn't give Melo much (if any) advantage to start his offensive.  It also wasn't as if (as someone else said), PP would have stolen the ball if not for melos arm.  Melo had already caught the ball cleanly, and turned his back to paul.  The foul was called while Melos back was to him...not a position PP was likely to make a steal from.

As many people have said, there were lots of missed calls both ways, as the refs seemed to be letting them play.  Especially in a situation where the refs are "letting them play", a move as passive as that should never get a whistle. That goes double for the last minute of a close game, where that whistle could be the deciding factor.


If the refs are letting them play, then the no call on KGs pick is fine.  If they're calling it real tight, then maybe there's a place for the offensive foul call on Melo...but there's no way within the realm of "reasonable officiating", that both calls make sense. 

If (in the last 2 minutes of a close game) one team is the benefactor of both the non-calls AND the questionable calls...thats when you can say the refs gave them the game. You can say there were other calls at other points in the game, that were bad for the celts, but none were as blatant (or meaningful to the games decision) as the calls in the last 2 minutes that went against the Knicks. 

I'm not mad about it at all, because my team won, but I think if we can point fingers at the refs for the games they screw us out of, we should also be able to recognize the games they aid us in.

I give you a perfect example of that exact same play going against the Celtics in the last few seconds of a playoff game and you still hold to this bizare notion that that call is never made?
Don't let facts get in the way of a bad argument.

[jdpapa3]

Why no mention of Delonte getting called for an out of bounds screen when he wasn't out of bounds in the fourth quarter? The game was tied at that point with 7 minutes left. Huge call.

I try to look at it from the POV of the other fanbase. I'd have been mad about the Melo call if he was on our team, but the KG screen wouldn't have irked me bad. Douglas was trailing already at that point and Turiaf needed to have stepped up. I believe in the refs letting more go in the final few minutes.

[dtrader]

There aren't 10 million moving screens a game, where the screeners poked out elbow and foot cause the opposing player to be leveled to the ground, making him unable to recover to his assignment =/....Those are pretty much always called.

There were missed calls against the C's too, but nothing anywhere near as blatant as the illegal screen by KG, and I think the offensive foul they called on Melo basically made up for any issues we could have had with prior calls. That offensive foul is something NEVER called against a star...let alone in that situation with the game on the line.

If the Knicks fans are saying the refs gave us that game, I wouldn't disagree. I'd just say thats why you fight for homecourt, and we'll see you back at MSG.

Those are called against stars all the time, including against players better than Melo.

Being a star is irrelevant. Throwing an obvious and unmistakable forearm is what is relevant. You can't get away with that easily in an iso play which is slow moving and easy to watch develop.

It is a bit bizarre that people would reference an obviously correct call as a way to complain about refs. It shows how there really is nothing that refs can do to please certain people.

I'm sorry, but that's just NOT a call thats made often at all. Melo did NOT "throw a forearm" lol. He used his arm to make space with PP (who was all over his back). PPs defense was solid (and legal), and Melo making space was normal.  What they called had absolutely nothing to do with the play. It's not as if Melos move to make space, made it so that PP couldnt still defend him. It also didn't give Melo much (if any) advantage to start his offensive.  It also wasn't as if (as someone else said), PP would have stolen the ball if not for melos arm.  Melo had already caught the ball cleanly, and turned his back to paul.  The foul was called while Melos back was to him...not a position PP was likely to make a steal from.

As many people have said, there were lots of missed calls both ways, as the refs seemed to be letting them play.  Especially in a situation where the refs are "letting them play", a move as passive as that should never get a whistle. That goes double for the last minute of a close game, where that whistle could be the deciding factor.


If the refs are letting them play, then the no call on KGs pick is fine.  If they're calling it real tight, then maybe there's a place for the offensive foul call on Melo...but there's no way within the realm of "reasonable officiating", that both calls make sense.  

If (in the last 2 minutes of a close game) one team is the benefactor of both the non-calls AND the questionable calls...thats when you can say the refs gave them the game. You can say there were other calls at other points in the game, that were bad for the celts, but none were as blatant (or meaningful to the games decision) as the calls in the last 2 minutes that went against the Knicks.  

I'm not mad about it at all, because my team won, but I think if we can point fingers at the refs for the games they screw us out of, we should also be able to recognize the games they aid us in.

I give you a perfect example of that exact same play going against the Celtics in the last few seconds of a playoff game and you still hold to this bizare notion that that call is never made?
Don't let facts get in the way of a bad argument.

Lol. You mean when you referenced a play involving Pierce and Jamal tinsley? Seriously?  Come on man...If you want to give an example to support your position and choose to use a random play from like 5 years ago, you need to provide video or something. Why would I (or anyone else) remember that play well enough to draw a reasonable comparison now?

Honestly, the fact that a similar play from that long ago still stands out in your mind today, may say more for my arguement about it being an exceptional call, than it does to support your stance that it happens all the time. Why else would you need to think back to Jamal Tinsleys time for an example of it?



Jdpapa3...I think the call was actually "moving screen". I know the analysts kept discussing it as a "screen out of bounds", but I think the actual call made on delonte was for a moving screen...which it certainly was.

[biggs]

celtics slump, fans complain

Danny makes a trade, and we lose our "gusto", fans complain

celtics win a heroic victory that sets the pace for their entire playoff run,  fans complain

I'm sorry, but is the original poster an angry Felger or something, trying to rain on the "greenteamers" parade?

You my sir, have my vote for "Worst thread Ever". 

Lets see..
1)I'm a fan of the trade..I think it was the correct decision at the time and surrounding circumstances and defended it god-knows-how-many times.
2)I've backed up Rondo throughout his slump through the trash heap he was thrown in on this board.
3)I've defended Big Baby in countless threads.

I'm a realistic, extremely knowledgeable basketball fan and player.

If you think that call on Carmelo was deserved then you're kidding yourself. This is the playoffs and the ref was on the other side of Pierce and Melo, making a call over NOTHING.

KG BLATANTLY steps out and sets that pick, causing Douglas to fall over. Douglas is not known as a flopper. Did you see KG's reaction - he looked at the ref like 'holy $%#*, please don't call that a moving screen'.

The refs failed to do their job at the most critical point of the game on multiple occasions. This isn't the first time this has happened. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that we didn't hustle our hearts out to get back in the game and put ourselves in a position to win. But without those two critical incorrect decisions, we probably don't win that game- something I want Celtics fans to think about and remember.

I was speaking in generalities, so you don't need to defend yourself on those fan topics, I'm sure you know what your talking about,  I just don't think the refs won the game for us.

Paul Pierce is a big dude, and I'm not even saying that he doesn't flop sometimes, but that play was not a flop, and to create that much space to get your shot off you have to be pushing off pretty hard.

The KG screen could have gone either way, but the fact that the Knicks had a fair chance to win and that Melo had a good look at a three to win, tells me that it was a good job by the refs and made for a good finish. 

Also the ref that made the call on Melo was standing about 3 feet away from them when he made the call, so I don't think he would miss it.

If the point that your trying to make is that we had home court advantage, then, yeah, I'm with you.  That is why you try play most of your games at home.  There will always be a home court advantage, it's the nature of the beast.

Also, if you really want to talk conspiracy, shouldn't have the refs had it in for the celts? I'm pretty sure that a NY/MIA series would create more revenue and ratings than BOS/MIA, esp with Shaq's health a question mark.

[Roy H.]

Lol. You mean when you referenced a play involving Pierce and Jamal tinsley? Seriously?  Come on man...If you want to give an example to support your position and choose to use a random play from like 5 years ago, you need to provide video or something. Why would I (or anyone else) remember that play well enough to draw a reasonable comparison now?

Without getting involved in the specifics of this debate, I do think a lot of Celtics fans vividly remember that play.  I think the circumstances were a lot different than the Carmelo / Pierce play, but it's definitely a sequence that stands out for a lot of Celts fans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbwm2tolAHo

[ballin]

There aren't 10 million moving screens a game, where the screeners poked out elbow and foot cause the opposing player to be leveled to the ground, making him unable to recover to his assignment =/....Those are pretty much always called.

There were missed calls against the C's too, but nothing anywhere near as blatant as the illegal screen by KG, and I think the offensive foul they called on Melo basically made up for any issues we could have had with prior calls. That offensive foul is something NEVER called against a star...let alone in that situation with the game on the line.

If the Knicks fans are saying the refs gave us that game, I wouldn't disagree. I'd just say thats why you fight for homecourt, and we'll see you back at MSG.

Those are called against stars all the time, including against players better than Melo.

Being a star is irrelevant. Throwing an obvious and unmistakable forearm is what is relevant. You can't get away with that easily in an iso play which is slow moving and easy to watch develop.

It is a bit bizarre that people would reference an obviously correct call as a way to complain about refs. It shows how there really is nothing that refs can do to please certain people.

I'm sorry, but that's just NOT a call thats made often at all. Melo did NOT "throw a forearm" lol. He used his arm to make space with PP (who was all over his back). PPs defense was solid (and legal), and Melo making space was normal.  What they called had absolutely nothing to do with the play. It's not as if Melos move to make space, made it so that PP couldnt still defend him. It also didn't give Melo much (if any) advantage to start his offensive.  It also wasn't as if (as someone else said), PP would have stolen the ball if not for melos arm.  Melo had already caught the ball cleanly, and turned his back to paul.  The foul was called while Melos back was to him...not a position PP was likely to make a steal from.

As many people have said, there were lots of missed calls both ways, as the refs seemed to be letting them play.  Especially in a situation where the refs are "letting them play", a move as passive as that should never get a whistle. That goes double for the last minute of a close game, where that whistle could be the deciding factor.


If the refs are letting them play, then the no call on KGs pick is fine.  If they're calling it real tight, then maybe there's a place for the offensive foul call on Melo...but there's no way within the realm of "reasonable officiating", that both calls make sense. 

If (in the last 2 minutes of a close game) one team is the benefactor of both the non-calls AND the questionable calls...thats when you can say the refs gave them the game. You can say there were other calls at other points in the game, that were bad for the celts, but none were as blatant (or meaningful to the games decision) as the calls in the last 2 minutes that went against the Knicks. 

I'm not mad about it at all, because my team won, but I think if we can point fingers at the refs for the games they screw us out of, we should also be able to recognize the games they aid us in.

exactly...
I'm glad we got the calls- I just think they were blatantly incorrect and I hope Celtic Nation remembers this if we lose a game under similar circumstances this playoffs- particularly newer fans who are following the C's entire playoff run for the first time.
As dtrader correctly points out, the calls were both opposites of each other. You either let both of them go or you call them both.
I'm just glad the NBA wants a Lakers v Celtics finals rematch this year! (just kidding).

I pretty much agree with the assessment that, hey, you can't call it tight on one end and then really loose on the other end, and that's what happened last night.

I'm glad the Celtics were on the bonus end, and I'll take the win, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think refs gave us some help there. We even have a name for what happened: home court advantage.

The refs are swayed subconsciously by the fans, and it's a proven phenomenon. And that's all that happened... boohoo for the Knicks... if you want that advantage you have to fight for it in the regular season.

Frankly, the exact same disparity in the reffing occurred in Game 7 last year; yes, it really p---es me off, but once again that's why you fight to have the best record.

[dtrader]

Lol. You mean when you referenced a play involving Pierce and Jamal tinsley? Seriously?  Come on man...If you want to give an example to support your position and choose to use a random play from like 5 years ago, you need to provide video or something. Why would I (or anyone else) remember that play well enough to draw a reasonable comparison now?

Without getting involved in the specifics of this debate, I do think a lot of Celtics fans vividly remember that play.  I think the circumstances were a lot different than the Carmelo / Pierce play, but it's definitely a sequence that stands out for a lot of Celts fans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbwm2tolAHo

Yeah, I looked it up on youtube too as soon as you said it was a known play.  CLEARLY that is nowhere near similar in any way lol. Pierce went from having his back to Tinsley to swinging his entite body around with his elbow pointed to Tinsleys face LOL.  And Tinsley went to the ground.  Melo even never turned around, and Pierce wa still right on him defensively even after the move Melo made.  He also didn't use his elbow.  He did what just about every wing player does to make space when their defender has there body too close to them.  It was certainly an uncommon call.