Doc on WEEI: "No one said no" to Perk trade

[JSD]

Post-Trade, JO can start for 25 min and Shaq can come in for 17 min, with Kristic serving as insurance.  Post-Trade we have the luxury of going small with Jeff Green at the 4 and KG at the 5 which we would not have otherwise.  

THAT's the assumption that I abhor.  If I was 100% confident that JP and Shaq could combine for 42 minutes a game through June, I'd probably be a trade supporter.  

That's one helluva assumption, though, not after what we've seen all season.

And I ain't playing Jeff Green at the 4, not unless I absolutely have to.

So... Do you think Ainge is 100% confident? Because he pulled the trigger I'd say he's pretty darn convinced they can play those type of minutes when it matters.

Ainge has earned my trust, and for that reason I'm a trade supporter.

[Roy H.]

So... Do you think Ainge is 100% confident? Because he pulled the trigger I'd say he's pretty darn convinced they can play those type of minutes when it matters.

My guess is that Danny's confidence in Shaq has decreased quite a bit over the past two months.  At the time, I think Danny thought that Shaq's return was imminent.  I think he miscalculated.

My further guess is that if Danny knew Shaq would have played 5 minutes since February, and would be questionable for Game 1, that he'd have never pulled the trigger on the deal.

[Yogi]

Post-Trade, JO can start for 25 min and Shaq can come in for 17 min, with Kristic serving as insurance.  Post-Trade we have the luxury of going small with Jeff Green at the 4 and KG at the 5 which we would not have otherwise.  

THAT's the assumption that I abhor.  If I was 100% confident that JP and Shaq could combine for 42 minutes a game through June, I'd probably be a trade supporter.  

That's one helluva assumption, though, not after what we've seen all season.

And I ain't playing Jeff Green at the 4, not unless I absolutely have to.

   Any concern about the health of Shaq and JO will remain trade or otherwise.  That leaves us the health of Kristic vs. Perk.  While I would also prefer Perk to Kristic, this would only be a factor if both O'Neals were out.  If only Shaq were out for example, we would have 42 minutes between Perk and JO vs. 42 min between JO and Kristic.  In addition Baby's minutes can increase from 20 to 25 without significant drop in production.  Besides how many backup centers in the league are better than Kristic?  In Chicago's case for example he would face the vet Kurt Thomas, unless Thibbs wishes to play the rookie Omer Asik.   

[Chris]

My further guess is that if Danny knew Shaq would have played 5 minutes since February, and would be questionable for Game 1, that he'd have never pulled the trigger on the deal.

Or, at the very least, he would have tried harder to supplement it with another low post presence instead of Troy Murphy and company.  

[JSD]

So... Do you think Ainge is 100% confident? Because he pulled the trigger I'd say he's pretty darn convinced they can play those type of minutes when it matters.

My guess is that Danny's confidence in Shaq has decreased quite a bit over the past two months.  At the time, I think Danny thought that Shaq's return was imminent.  I think he miscalculated.

My further guess is that if Danny knew Shaq would have played 5 minutes since February, and would be questionable for Game 1, that he'd have never pulled the trigger on the deal.

Both are pretty big guesses on your part.

I look at it like this: Ainge has the behind the scenes knowledge we simply don't have access to, so his actions should be given the benefit of the doubt based on his track record. From an idealistic perspective, Perk was a trade asset when healthy to Ainge the moment Shaq was brought in for the veteran minimum. I also believe he assumed Shaq would take a great deal of the regular season off.

That said, I don't think he's second guessing this trade at all, and contrary to maybe your belief, I'll have no problem admitting you were right (about the trade), and my faith in Ainge was wrong, if they lose if in a fashion that warrants it. Like if Jermaine and Shaq simply can't stay healthy or split 40-44 minutes a night.

[bbd24]

So... Do you think Ainge is 100% confident? Because he pulled the trigger I'd say he's pretty darn convinced they can play those type of minutes when it matters.

My guess is that Danny's confidence in Shaq has decreased quite a bit over the past two months.  At the time, I think Danny thought that Shaq's return was imminent.  I think he miscalculated.

My further guess is that if Danny knew Shaq would have played 5 minutes since February, and would be questionable for Game 1, that he'd have never pulled the trigger on the deal.

Both are pretty big guesses on your part.

I look at it like this: Ainge has the behind the scenes knowledge we simply don't have access to, so his actions should be given the benefit of the doubt based on his track record. From an idealistic perspective, Perk was a trade asset when healthy to Ainge the moment Shaq was brought in for the veteran minimum.I also believe he assumed Shaq would take a great deal of the regular season off.

That said, I don't think he's second guessing this trade at all, and contrary to maybe your belief, I'll have no problem admitting you were right (about the trade), and my faith in Ainge was wrong, if they lose if in a fashion that warrants it. Like if Jermaine and Shaq simply can't stay healthy or split 40-44 minutes a night.

I think your absolutely right.

No reason to second guess it.  There was nothing guaranteed or handed to you this year.

[JBcat]

"Ding, Ding" - Lucky17 says "Jeff Green at SF with Pierce at shooting guard could be immediate future of the team". TP

...and

"Ding, ding" - Wdleehi says "Jeff Green is a starting SF in this league but we won't see his full potential while Pierce is in front of him", or Durant for that matter...  TP
 
TP's to both, I agree and I say we will see Jeff Green's full potential next year because he will be starting at SF, Pierce will be at off guard and Ray will be our sixth man off the bench. If we could sign someone like Dalembert this off season?

Dalembert / JO / Nenad
KG / Big baby? / ?
Green / Sasha
Pierce / Ray
Rondo / DWest

We will beat up on people...
Next year is the year to take a load off Ray...sharp shooter off the bench with Dwest
Rondo and Green start forming their chemistry, start carrying more of the load...

"Ding, Ding!" - Chris says people playing their natural positions leads to great team success in OKC. This statement is money and it's critical when assembling a team. Players playing our of their natural positions in the NBA usually end up injured. TP

"DING,DING,DING,DING,DING!!!!" - Green Envy says "Ainge is committed to keeping the 2012 books clear and we all know who that is for..."  TP

A) It's for Dwight Howard - unless he signs an extension in Orlando, even if traded he will most likley insist on becoming an unrestricted free agent.

B) There is no guarantee he will come to Boston - but if Ainge doesn't "put himself in a position" to make a run at Howard, he certainly won't come. Ainge's plan

Rondo, Jeff Green and Pierce
Clipper's 1st round pick
Our first round picks
The right mid level guy...
Add Howard...

If you add Howard to Rondo and Green, you're in contention immediately. Howard and Green can get up and down the floor with Rondo, no problem.

If Ainge pulls that off, we'll be winning alot of rings over the next 5-10 years. 

Going back to Jeff Green playing SF I think with an off season in our system focusing on that position only instead of PF like in OKC he can flourish more.  There are games where he is nonexistent however I'm seen enough flashes of his skills to warrent promise as he reaches only age 25 next year.   I really like the Pierce Green wing combo from what I've seen of it and I could foresee at least next season where you have a 3 man rotation with Green, Pierce, and Allen at SF and SG.  I think we can help prolong Allen's career by starting to diminish his minutes next season at age 36 to maybe somewhere in the high 20s per game.  At that rate he could still be a very effective player for at least couple more seasons. 

I'd love to get Dwight but he may be a reach.  However if Ainge continues to fill the center spot with MLE guys like JO and keeping Krstic we could focus our available cap space, trade assets along with picks to getting maybe another stud PF in 2012.   You could maybe then have a 3 or 4 man big rotation with KG taking a lesser role and lesser pay in 2012. 

Let's say we have;
PG Rondo, West
SG Pierce, Allen
SF Green, Pierce
PF "new stud" let's say Griffin or Aldridge, KG
C MLE guy, KG,  JO or Krstic if still around

Trade assets up until then to get star player Davis, Bradley (looked pretty good last night.  Maybe he could end up sticking in this league.), any of our first round picks, and the Clippers pick.  I think the Clippers pick in a deep draft could be the key in landing a star.   I'd like to give that pick back to the Clippers along with whatever else for Griffin. 

[slamtheking]

So... Do you think Ainge is 100% confident? Because he pulled the trigger I'd say he's pretty darn convinced they can play those type of minutes when it matters.

My guess is that Danny's confidence in Shaq has decreased quite a bit over the past two months.  At the time, I think Danny thought that Shaq's return was imminent.  I think he miscalculated.

My further guess is that if Danny knew Shaq would have played 5 minutes since February, and would be questionable for Game 1, that he'd have never pulled the trigger on the deal.

completely agree.

Also anyone thinking this 'homerun' of a trade was all Danny had going is kidding themselves.  No doubt Semih and Luke could have netted at least Parker from the Cavs.  Just because we didn't get Parker doesn't mean that trade wasn't considered.  The thing to keep in mind is Green deal was already in place and obtaining Parker wasn't needed. 

I'd rather Danny have pulled off that deal and kept Perk.  We know we've been to the finals with that starting lineup and that starting lineup was the one that 'flipped the switch' last year.  Also, Perk was healthy enough to finish out the season as the starter--next season be [dang]ed.  Having a center rotation of Perk, Shaq and JO means you only really need one of the Oneals healthy to come off the bench since Perk can certainly give 30-35 minutes a night for the playoffs.  Now, the team needs both Oneals to really be considered a contender and that's an awful lot of optimism that they'll both hold up through the finals. 

Considering Danny expected Shaq back almost immediately after the trade, this looks like a deal that backfired.  One other item, Green may be far more talented than Sasha or Parker or any of Danny's other Quisy target replacements but keep in mind PP's backup only really needs to cover for him for 12 minutes a game.  People can praise Green's abilities and skills all they want but Doc has not used him like he used Posey and Green has not been that instead firepower or spark off the bench that we needed.  He is a starting-caliber SF wasting on this bench because he'll never start over PP--it'll take another 2 years or more to make this 'deal for the future' pay off and that's if Green stays around that long.

[the_Bird]

So... Do you think Ainge is 100% confident? Because he pulled the trigger I'd say he's pretty darn convinced they can play those type of minutes when it matters.

My guess is that Danny's confidence in Shaq has decreased quite a bit over the past two months.  At the time, I think Danny thought that Shaq's return was imminent.  I think he miscalculated.

My further guess is that if Danny knew Shaq would have played 5 minutes since February, and would be questionable for Game 1, that he'd have never pulled the trigger on the deal.

completely agree.

Also anyone thinking this 'homerun' of a trade was all Danny had going is kidding themselves.  No doubt Semih and Luke could have netted at least Parker from the Cavs.  Just because we didn't get Parker doesn't mean that trade wasn't considered.  The thing to keep in mind is Green deal was already in place and obtaining Parker wasn't needed.  

I'd rather Danny have pulled off that deal and kept Perk.  We know we've been to the finals with that starting lineup and that starting lineup was the one that 'flipped the switch' last year.  Also, Perk was healthy enough to finish out the season as the starter--next season be [dang]ed.  Having a center rotation of Perk, Shaq and JO means you only really need one of the Oneals healthy to come off the bench since Perk can certainly give 30-35 minutes a night for the playoffs.  Now, the team needs both Oneals to really be considered a contender and that's an awful lot of optimism that they'll both hold up through the finals.  

Considering Danny expected Shaq back almost immediately after the trade, this looks like a deal that backfired.  One other item, Green may be far more talented than Sasha or Parker or any of Danny's other Quisy target replacements but keep in mind PP's backup only really needs to cover for him for 12 minutes a game.  People can praise Green's abilities and skills all they want but Doc has not used him like he used Posey and Green has not been that instead firepower or spark off the bench that we needed.  He is a starting-caliber SF wasting on this bench because he'll never start over PP--it'll take another 2 years or more to make this 'deal for the future' pay off and that's if Green stays around that long.

Bingo.  That's what I've been trying to articulate, perhaps unsuccessfully, since the trade went down.

EDIT: Just as a reminder.  The Brothers O'Neal have combined for less than three games' worth of minutes, total, since the trade went down - and people want to talk about Perk's injury being a concern?

[PosImpos]

So... Do you think Ainge is 100% confident? Because he pulled the trigger I'd say he's pretty darn convinced they can play those type of minutes when it matters.

My guess is that Danny's confidence in Shaq has decreased quite a bit over the past two months.  At the time, I think Danny thought that Shaq's return was imminent.  I think he miscalculated.

My further guess is that if Danny knew Shaq would have played 5 minutes since February, and would be questionable for Game 1, that he'd have never pulled the trigger on the deal.

Still, I think we have to trust that Danny knows more about this stuff than we do.

Maybe the trade can be judged based on its ultimate results, but I think Danny must be judged based on what he knew and could have reasonably foreseen at the time of the trade.  In that light I can't really find fault with Danny; I think his reasons for making the trade were sound at the time.

[Roy H.]

So... Do you think Ainge is 100% confident? Because he pulled the trigger I'd say he's pretty darn convinced they can play those type of minutes when it matters.

My guess is that Danny's confidence in Shaq has decreased quite a bit over the past two months.  At the time, I think Danny thought that Shaq's return was imminent.  I think he miscalculated.

My further guess is that if Danny knew Shaq would have played 5 minutes since February, and would be questionable for Game 1, that he'd have never pulled the trigger on the deal.

Still, I think we have to trust that Danny knows more about this stuff than we do.

Maybe the trade can be judged based on its ultimate results, but I think Danny must be judged based on what he knew and could have reasonably foreseen at the time of the trade.  In that light I can't really find fault with Danny; I think his reasons for making the trade were sound at the time.

I'm sure Danny knew it was a risk.  He weighed that risk, and to date, I think he's been wrong.  Ultimately, though, that risk needs to be weighed in light of Shaq's performance in the playoffs.

[slamtheking]

So... Do you think Ainge is 100% confident? Because he pulled the trigger I'd say he's pretty darn convinced they can play those type of minutes when it matters.

My guess is that Danny's confidence in Shaq has decreased quite a bit over the past two months.  At the time, I think Danny thought that Shaq's return was imminent.  I think he miscalculated.

My further guess is that if Danny knew Shaq would have played 5 minutes since February, and would be questionable for Game 1, that he'd have never pulled the trigger on the deal.

Still, I think we have to trust that Danny knows more about this stuff than we do.

Maybe the trade can be judged based on its ultimate results, but I think Danny must be judged based on what he knew and could have reasonably foreseen at the time of the trade.  In that light I can't really find fault with Danny; I think his reasons for making the trade were sound at the time.

I'm sure Danny knew it was a risk.  He weighed that risk, and to date, I think he's been wrong.  Ultimately, though, that risk needs to be weighed in light of Shaq's performance in the playoffs.

I think that's really the only way to evaluate the trade when it comes down to it---do they win the title or not with Shaq/JO giving their all in the effort. 
If the C's don't win the title and it's not due to Shaq/JO's performance (or lack thereof) then the trade is a moot issue.  I don't think it's a likely scenario but one that's possible considering we're relying the rest of the starters will 'flip the switch' and start playing with a purpose in the playoffs.

[Eja117]

Enough is enough.

We didn't trade Pierce for a rack of practice balls. We didn't trade Rondo for Ramon Sessions. We traded our 5th best starter who was due for a contract negotiation that could have gotten ugly.

We didn't trade the franchise. The didn't trade the future.

I don't get any of this.

(And don't get me wrong, I love Perk)

Wait. We could have gotten a rack of practice balls for Perk?  Well then why didn't they go that? It would have made a lot more sense.

[Eja117]

Wow.  There are still people out there that think this was a good trade?

Then again I didn't even think anybody would be for it when it happened.

Actually, I don't think it was just a good trade.  It was a GREAT trade.

You add up all the details involved and you can't think otherwise.

-- Perkins coming off major knee surgery

-- Perkins getting injured yet again after coming back on a standard play

-- Roster depleted with Injuries including Perkins at the time

-- Your team with free agents or additions like Shaq, JO, and Semih didn't miss a beat when Perkins was down and out

-- Can't sign Perk for 4/5 M per

-- Core 4 still here

-- Your not giving him 8/9 M per next season with the core 4 here

-- Received a 24 yr old whose just getting his feet wet in the league who has far more upside than Perkins at this point in his career

-- Also got a backup Center with starter experience, with a future 1st round Clipper pick to help down the road as well

-- Value returned was far greater than letting an injured player walk in the future for virtually nothing

And it may have only cost us a championship.  Big deal. Those are easy enough to come by

[LB3533]

To me, if Pierce and Ray don't flame out in the playoffs then that is also evidence that the trade was a success.