Doc on WEEI: "No one said no" to Perk trade

[the_Bird]

I am pretty sure Danny would have made a "smallerish" type deal if there was one to be had.

All reports spoken from Doc and Danny were there may have been 2 deals on the table....both included  trading away Perk....and they pulled the trigger on the best of the 2 deals.

There was a lot of discussion about a small deal, Anthony Parker for Semih.  Now, Anthony Parker <<< Jeff Green, but it wouldn't have meant giving up Perk.  

You still could have done the Quis trade and probably gotten Cleveland to take 'Gody, too, to free up another two roster spots.  Add in Sasha and you've got two rotation-caliber wing players to give depth behind Pierce.

Danny wasn't thinking small, he was thinking home run.  He was thinking he could set the team up for the post Big-3 era and still compete for the title in 2011.  Think he overestimated how good Jeff Green was and how much we'd be scrambling for an effective big man right now.

[Chris]

There was a lot of discussion about a small deal, Anthony Parker for Semih.  Now, Anthony Parker <<< Jeff Green, but it wouldn't have meant giving up Perk.  

Small quibble, but I think the fact that the C's did trade Semih to the Cavs but did not get Parker in return was evidence that there was nothing to that rumor.

I believe that Rumor was based on the fact that Cleveland reportedly asked the Bulls for Asik (a significantly better prospect than Semih), and a reporter then suggested that based on that, Semih (another young center) is who they would want from the C's for Parker.   

If that rumor was true, I cannot see any way the C's wouldn't have still made the deal of Semih for Parker, rather than going after buy out guys, who they knew were not going to be as good as Parker.

Now, it is a small quibble, because I think there is much more smoke with the rumor that they would have given up Parker for a first round pick, and if their backs were against the wall, the C's would have gladly given up that pick for him.  But I just don't think the Semih for Parker deal was ever on the table, or else it would have been made.

[ssspence]

Who would say no to the trade ?  No brainer, even for the players who aren't GM's.

Your not paying a guy coming off that kind of injury 9 million per.  Not when you bring people off the streets from free agency like Shaq or JO who can match Perkins play or even be better than Perk.  Why lose that kind of money ?  You dump him now and get some value for him, instead of receiving virtually nothing next year.

How much are you paying JO this year?  I'll let you go look it up.

For future reference, Perk's $32M extension over four years is $8M per.  

For those without Google, JO's making an average of $6M per year, this year and next.  You'd rather pay him, or someone like him, $6M per year, than pay Perk $8M?

Hell, add Shaq's $1.4M/year in, and we're paying nearly that same $8M per year for two old, crippled centers.

How much do people REALLY think a decent center costs in the NBA?  You remember how much Brendan ****' Haywood got paid last season?  ****, even Darko got a 4/$20M contract (IIRC).

Seriously, look around one of the sites with salary numbers, and see what middle-of-the-road big men make.  Guys like Nene, or Kaman, or Haywood.  It's usually $10M - $12M per.

Not sure what siting bad NBA contracts from questionably run teams has to do with why the Cs didn't want to commit $8mil a year to Perk.

[ScoobyDoo]

"Ding, Ding" - Lucky17 says "Jeff Green at SF with Pierce at shooting guard could be immediate future of the team". TP

...and

"Ding, ding" - Wdleehi says "Jeff Green is a starting SF in this league but we won't see his full potential while Pierce is in front of him", or Durant for that matter...  TP
 
TP's to both, I agree and I say we will see Jeff Green's full potential next year because he will be starting at SF, Pierce will be at off guard and Ray will be our sixth man off the bench. If we could sign someone like Dalembert this off season?

Dalembert / JO / Nenad
KG / Big baby? / ?
Green / Sasha
Pierce / Ray
Rondo / DWest

We will beat up on people...
Next year is the year to take a load off Ray...sharp shooter off the bench with Dwest
Rondo and Green start forming their chemistry, start carrying more of the load...

"Ding, Ding!" - Chris says people playing their natural positions leads to great team success in OKC. This statement is money and it's critical when assembling a team. Players playing our of their natural positions in the NBA usually end up injured. TP

"DING,DING,DING,DING,DING!!!!" - Green Envy says "Ainge is committed to keeping the 2012 books clear and we all know who that is for..."  TP

A) It's for Dwight Howard - unless he signs an extension in Orlando, even if traded he will most likley insist on becoming an unrestricted free agent.

B) There is no guarantee he will come to Boston - but if Ainge doesn't "put himself in a position" to make a run at Howard, he certainly won't come. Ainge's plan

Rondo, Jeff Green and Pierce
Clipper's 1st round pick
Our first round picks
The right mid level guy...
Add Howard...

If you add Howard to Rondo and Green, you're in contention immediately. Howard and Green can get up and down the floor with Rondo, no problem.

If Ainge pulls that off, we'll be winning alot of rings over the next 5-10 years.  

[the_Bird]

Who would say no to the trade ?  No brainer, even for the players who aren't GM's.

Your not paying a guy coming off that kind of injury 9 million per.  Not when you bring people off the streets from free agency like Shaq or JO who can match Perkins play or even be better than Perk.  Why lose that kind of money ?  You dump him now and get some value for him, instead of receiving virtually nothing next year.

How much are you paying JO this year?  I'll let you go look it up.

For future reference, Perk's $32M extension over four years is $8M per.  

For those without Google, JO's making an average of $6M per year, this year and next.  You'd rather pay him, or someone like him, $6M per year, than pay Perk $8M?

Hell, add Shaq's $1.4M/year in, and we're paying nearly that same $8M per year for two old, crippled centers.

How much do people REALLY think a decent center costs in the NBA?  You remember how much Brendan ****' Haywood got paid last season?  ****, even Darko got a 4/$20M contract (IIRC).

Seriously, look around one of the sites with salary numbers, and see what middle-of-the-road big men make.  Guys like Nene, or Kaman, or Haywood.  It's usually $10M - $12M per.

Not sure what siting bad NBA contracts from questionably run teams has to do with why the Cs didn't want to commit $8mil a year to Perk.

Big men are always overpaid, that's nature of the beast.  Name me a (good, starting-caliber) NBA center that's not still on their rookie contract who's earning much less than $8M per.  I hate to even call these guys "overpaid" anymore, it's just the going rate for a seven footer.

I mean,

Krstic; $5.8M
Sheed was making ~$6M when he retired
Tyson Chandler; almost $13M
Dalembert; $12.2M
Nazr Mohammed; $7M
The Vanilla Gorilla; $7.4M
DeSanga Diop; $7M over the next two seasons
Zaza Paxhulia; he's averaging ~$5M over the next two years
Brendan Haywood; averaging about $9M/year on his deal
Okafor; averaging about $13M for another three years
Bargnani; averaging about $10.5M for another four years
Big Al; $14M next year, $15M the year after
Paul Millsap; averaging $7M the next two years
David Lee; averaging about $13M over the next five years


I'm really not trying to cherrypick, I'm just looking at decent big men who are off their rookie deals.  I don't see too many guys at much less than $8M per, not guys that I'd rather have than Perk.  

Gortat is one, but he's not making about $7M per and Orlando took a big gamble when they signed him to that deal, he was a lot less proven at the time that Perk is today.  Millsap, but he's undersized to play the 5 (which limits how much he's going to get paid; he'd be making $10M if he was 6'11")

I don't understand the whole "Don't pay $8M for Perkins, he's a role player!" argument.  He's pretty [dang] good in the role he plays, and that's the going rate for a veteran center.  Unless you get lucky and find someone in the draft, big men are always "overpaid."

Otherwise, you're digging through the scrap heap for guys like Kwame Brown and Tony Battie.

EDIT: Brad Miller for $5M?

[mgent]

I am pretty sure Danny would have made a "smallerish" type deal if there was one to be had.

All reports spoken from Doc and Danny were there may have been 2 deals on the table....both included  trading away Perk....and they pulled the trigger on the best of the 2 deals.

There was a lot of discussion about a small deal, Anthony Parker for Semih.  Now, Anthony Parker <<< Jeff Green, but it wouldn't have meant giving up Perk.  

You still could have done the Quis trade and probably gotten Cleveland to take 'Gody, too, to free up another two roster spots.  Add in Sasha and you've got two rotation-caliber wing players to give depth behind Pierce.

Danny wasn't thinking small, he was thinking home run.  He was thinking he could set the team up for the post Big-3 era and still compete for the title in 2011.  Think he overestimated how good Jeff Green was and how much we'd be scrambling for an effective big man right now.

Yes, this deal was supposedly also on the table, and a deal with Semih going to HOU (according to his twitter), and a 3-way deal with Nate going to GS as well.  If you think there were no other "smallish type deals" with any of the 29 teams in the league for a SF you're mistaken.  There were also a couple of FAs that probably would have done the trick.

Even if we did absolutely nothing and went into the playoffs with Wafer, Harangody, Nate, and Perk (and possibly Pavlovic) instead of Green and Krstic I still say we'd be in better shape than the "uncohesive" group we have now.

[CeltsAcumen]

I am pretty sure Danny would have made a "smallerish" type deal if there was one to be had.

All reports spoken from Doc and Danny were there may have been 2 deals on the table....both included  trading away Perk....and they pulled the trigger on the best of the 2 deals.

There was a lot of discussion about a small deal, Anthony Parker for Semih.  Now, Anthony Parker <<< Jeff Green, but it wouldn't have meant giving up Perk.  

You still could have done the Quis trade and probably gotten Cleveland to take 'Gody, too, to free up another two roster spots.  Add in Sasha and you've got two rotation-caliber wing players to give depth behind Pierce.

Danny wasn't thinking small, he was thinking home run.  He was thinking he could set the team up for the post Big-3 era and still compete for the title in 2011.  Think he overestimated how good Jeff Green was and how much we'd be scrambling for an effective big man right now.

Yes, this deal was supposedly also on the table, and a deal with Semih going to HOU (according to his twitter), and a 3-way deal with Nate going to GS as well.  If you think there were no other "smallish type deals" with any of the 29 teams in the league for a SF you're mistaken.  There were also a couple of FAs that probably would have done the trick.

Even if we did absolutely nothing and went into the playoffs with Wafer, Harangody, Nate, and Perk (and possibly Pavlovic) instead of Green and Krstic I still say we'd be in better shape than the "uncohesive" group we have now.

Absolutely.  Could not agree more.  Pro-Green people always talk about the future as if the Celtics will not be rebuilding when the Big 3 retire and forget THIS is the season to make a run, not in 5 years.  That's crazy, especially when you look at the Bulls and the Heat who are about to dominate the East for the next 5 years.

Winning now, this season was and is all that matters.  With Perk the Celts have a better chance to win the Championship in 2011.  Plus Perk is not expensive, its crazy to say he was too expensive.

[bbd24]

Who would say no to the trade ?  No brainer, even for the players who aren't GM's.

Your not paying a guy coming off that kind of injury 9 million per.  Not when you bring people off the streets from free agency like Shaq or JO who can match Perkins play or even be better than Perk.  Why lose that kind of money ?  You dump him now and get some value for him, instead of receiving virtually nothing next year.

How much are you paying JO this year?  I'll let you go look it up.

For future reference, Perk's $32M extension over four years is $8M per.  

For those without Google, JO's making an average of $6M per year, this year and next.  You'd rather pay him, or someone like him, $6M per year, than pay Perk $8M?

Hell, add Shaq's $1.4M/year in, and we're paying nearly that same $8M per year for two old, crippled centers.

How much do people REALLY think a decent center costs in the NBA?  You remember how much Brendan ****' Haywood got paid last season?  ****, even Darko got a 4/$20M contract (IIRC).

Seriously, look around one of the sites with salary numbers, and see what middle-of-the-road big men make.  Guys like Nene, or Kaman, or Haywood.  It's usually $10M - $12M per.

Not sure what siting bad NBA contracts from questionably run teams has to do with why the Cs didn't want to commit $8mil a year to Perk.

Big men are always overpaid, that's nature of the beast.  Name me a (good, starting-caliber) NBA center that's not still on their rookie contract who's earning much less than $8M per.  I hate to even call these guys "overpaid" anymore, it's just the going rate for a seven footer.

I mean,

Krstic; $5.8M
Sheed was making ~$6M when he retired
Tyson Chandler; almost $13M
Dalembert; $12.2M
Nazr Mohammed; $7M
The Vanilla Gorilla; $7.4M
DeSanga Diop; $7M over the next two seasons
Zaza Paxhulia; he's averaging ~$5M over the next two years
Brendan Haywood; averaging about $9M/year on his deal
Okafor; averaging about $13M for another three years
Bargnani; averaging about $10.5M for another four years
Big Al; $14M next year, $15M the year after
Paul Millsap; averaging $7M the next two years
David Lee; averaging about $13M over the next five years


I'm really not trying to cherrypick, I'm just looking at decent big men who are off their rookie deals.  I don't see too many guys at much less than $8M per, not guys that I'd rather have than Perk.  

Gortat is one, but he's not making about $7M per and Orlando took a big gamble when they signed him to that deal, he was a lot less proven at the time that Perk is today.  Millsap, but he's undersized to play the 5 (which limits how much he's going to get paid; he'd be making $10M if he was 6'11")

I don't understand the whole "Don't pay $8M for Perkins, he's a role player!" argument.  He's pretty [dang] good in the role he plays, and that's the going rate for a veteran center.  Unless you get lucky and find someone in the draft, big men are always "overpaid."

Otherwise, you're digging through the scrap heap for guys like Kwame Brown and Tony Battie.

EDIT: Brad Miller for $5M?

I don't think anyone is just saying, " Don't Pay Perkins he's a role player ". There is a lot more to it than just that.  Namely the fact that he's coming off major knee surgery and only gives you 20-25 mins per.  You don't pay players like that 8/9M per.  Especially when they can be replaced and outperformed by over the hill veterans like Shaq or JO.

[bbd24]

"Ding, Ding" - Lucky17 says "Jeff Green at SF with Pierce at shooting guard could be immediate future of the team". TP

...and

"Ding, ding" - Wdleehi says "Jeff Green is a starting SF in this league but we won't see his full potential while Pierce is in front of him", or Durant for that matter...  TP
 
TP's to both, I agree and I say we will see Jeff Green's full potential next year because he will be starting at SF, Pierce will be at off guard and Ray will be our sixth man off the bench. If we could sign someone like Dalembert this off season?

Dalembert / JO / Nenad
KG / Big baby? / ?
Green / Sasha
Pierce / Ray
Rondo / DWest

We will beat up on people...
Next year is the year to take a load off Ray...sharp shooter off the bench with Dwest
Rondo and Green start forming their chemistry, start carrying more of the load...

"Ding, Ding!" - Chris says people playing their natural positions leads to great team success in OKC. This statement is money and it's critical when assembling a team. Players playing our of their natural positions in the NBA usually end up injured. TP

"DING,DING,DING,DING,DING!!!!" - Green Envy says "Ainge is committed to keeping the 2012 books clear and we all know who that is for..."  TP

A) It's for Dwight Howard - unless he signs an extension in Orlando, even if traded he will most likley insist on becoming an unrestricted free agent.

B) There is no guarantee he will come to Boston - but if Ainge doesn't "put himself in a position" to make a run at Howard, he certainly won't come. Ainge's plan

Rondo, Jeff Green and Pierce
Clipper's 1st round pick
Our first round picks
The right mid level guy...
Add Howard...

If you add Howard to Rondo and Green, you're in contention immediately. Howard and Green can get up and down the floor with Rondo, no problem.

If Ainge pulls that off, we'll be winning alot of rings over the next 5-10 years.  

You mention Dwight Howard, but thats just one key free agent.  Your opening your books for even more options once KG's and Ray's contract come off.  So even if you don't get Howard (IMO, Ainge is making a run at him), there are several other great free agent options. Howards just one of the many. Add those options in with maybe even KG and Ray signing on the cheap to end their careers in Beantown, and you got yourself looking at greatness.  That doesn't even include the Clipper pick which could touch ground as well by then.  Your future is setup very very nice.

[the_Bird]

I love the idea of going after Dwight, but the only way it happens, the only way the C's will have enough cap space, is probably going to be if they don's re-sign Jeff Green and they renounce their rights to KG and Ray Allen at the end of their contracts (like Miami did with all of their free agents last year).  If you don't renounce them, the still count towards the cap, and if you do you basically can only resign them with the vet minimum or any remaining cap space you might have.  So realistically, that means the 2012 C's would be Rondo, Pierce, Dwight, and nine scrubs.

Two last thoughts on the Jeff Green trade before I leave celticsblog for the night (need a [dang] rest). 

First, Danny screwed up last summer, not bringing in another SF to back up Pierce besides Quis.  Not that Quis' injury could have been predicted, but he was a known injury risk and they knew he had issues with his spine (they knew immediately when he went down that he had spinal issues).

Second, not that he's a great player but they gave up Billy Walker for basically nothing last year, to upgrade from Eddie House to NateRob.  NateRob was probably a little bit of an improvement over Eddie, but not THAT much better.  Walker's not a great player by any stretch, but he's shown enough since he left where I'd be OK with him backing Pierce up for 10-15 minutes a night.  That was a pretty meaningless trade that cost us a decent young player.  Not the end of the world, but still...  NateRob never fit in, and ended up being nothing more than salary fodder in the end regardless.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Krstic is here, and other than his recent injury, he's healthy. So while JO and Shaq are hurt, we actually got healthier by trading Perk.

Perk is healthy right now as well.  Except his team uses him as a starter. 

Which is fine. We got Green also. The point was that this isn't solely a Perk being healthy vs. JO/Shaq being healthy argument.

Which was overkill in replacing Daniels.

Well, if overkill means awesome trade and great value for Perk then yeah, complete overkill.

No.


It means giving up a likely need for a luxury item. 

What? Perk is no more of a "need" for this team than Green is. In fact, keeping Perk is the luxury item.

[Kane3387]

Who would say no to the trade ?  No brainer, even for the players who aren't GM's.

Your not paying a guy coming off that kind of injury 9 million per.  Not when you bring people off the streets from free agency like Shaq or JO who can match Perkins play or even be better than Perk.  Why lose that kind of money ?  You dump him now and get some value for him, instead of receiving virtually nothing next year.

How much are you paying JO this year?  I'll let you go look it up.

For future reference, Perk's $32M extension over four years is $8M per.  

For those without Google, JO's making an average of $6M per year, this year and next.  You'd rather pay him, or someone like him, $6M per year, than pay Perk $8M?

Hell, add Shaq's $1.4M/year in, and we're paying nearly that same $8M per year for two old, crippled centers.

How much do people REALLY think a decent center costs in the NBA?  You remember how much Brendan ****' Haywood got paid last season?  ****, even Darko got a 4/$20M contract (IIRC).

Seriously, look around one of the sites with salary numbers, and see what middle-of-the-road big men make.  Guys like Nene, or Kaman, or Haywood.  It's usually $10M - $12M per.

Shaq and JO are making that money in this CBA not the coming one where the cap will be lowered and Perk's current contract would have taken up more space. It's about the new CBA and what the new cap will be and having flexibility then. The only reason JO got that much is bc it was a 2 year deal and ended when KG's contract did.

[Yogi]

I am pretty sure Danny would have made a "smallerish" type deal if there was one to be had.

All reports spoken from Doc and Danny were there may have been 2 deals on the table....both included  trading away Perk....and they pulled the trigger on the best of the 2 deals.

There was a lot of discussion about a small deal, Anthony Parker for Semih.  Now, Anthony Parker <<< Jeff Green, but it wouldn't have meant giving up Perk.  

You still could have done the Quis trade and probably gotten Cleveland to take 'Gody, too, to free up another two roster spots.  Add in Sasha and you've got two rotation-caliber wing players to give depth behind Pierce.

Danny wasn't thinking small, he was thinking home run.  He was thinking he could set the team up for the post Big-3 era and still compete for the title in 2011.  Think he overestimated how good Jeff Green was and how much we'd be scrambling for an effective big man right now.

Yes, this deal was supposedly also on the table, and a deal with Semih going to HOU (according to his twitter), and a 3-way deal with Nate going to GS as well.  If you think there were no other "smallish type deals" with any of the 29 teams in the league for a SF you're mistaken.  There were also a couple of FAs that probably would have done the trick.

Even if we did absolutely nothing and went into the playoffs with Wafer, Harangody, Nate and Perk (and possibly Pavlovic) instead of Green and Krstic I still say we'd be in better shape than the "uncohesive" group we have now.  

  Rotation players pre-trade would be Big 4 + Perk, Shaq, JO, Baby, West, Nate and Pavlovic.  
   Rotation players post-trade are Big 4 + JO, Shaq, West, Green, Baby, Kristic.  
   Pre-Trade we have 7 players playing off the bench for a total rotation of 12 players.  
   Post-Trade we have 5 players playing off the bench for a total of 10 players.
   So the trade boils down to Perk, Nate and Pavlovic playing minutes vs. Green and Kristic.  Green is a bigger and much more talented player than Pavlovic.  
   Mello, Lebron, Deng and Artest are all younger than Paul Pierce we can assume our back-up small forward will spend significant minutes guarding these guys.  I would rather have Green who is 6-9, block shots and also score on the other side than Sasha who is 6-7 is a good defender with limited offense.
   Rondo and Ray will play at least 35 min in the play-offs.  We would need a guard to play for 26 min.  This leaves 26 min for Delonte West.  Nate Robinson would basically just be insurance.  A job Arroyo does admirably if I might add.  
   This leaves 96 min for the center and power-forward spots.  Kg would play 34 min.  Glen Davis averages 20 min in the playoffs.  That leaves, 42 minutes to split between JO, Shaq and Perk.  
   Pre-Trade, based on history, Perk averages 25 min.  That leaves 17 min total for the O'Neals.  Which means one of them would basically be insurance.  A slight waste of talent No?
   Post-Trade, JO can start for 25 min and Shaq can come in for 17 min, with Kristic serving as insurance.  Post-Trade we have the luxury of going small with Jeff Green at the 4 and KG at the 5 which we would not have otherwise.  
  Thus, I think the flexibility and the quality of our rotation players go up significantly post-trade.  

[JSD]

From Red's Army

http://www.redsarmy.com/home/2011/04/doc-on-weei-no-one-said-no-to-perk-trade.html

Doc said he talked to all the key players about it and no one said no.  Pressed on it and asked specifically if Rajon Rondo was on board, Doc repeated "no one said no."  Obviously the question insinuates Rondo has been p---ed off about the trade and that's the cause of his poor play.

I would love to see what Rajon's numbers are playing with Shaq this season vs. without Shaq. I bet there's a stronger correlation there than with anything else.

Anyone know a good site where I can find such information?

[the_Bird]

Post-Trade, JO can start for 25 min and Shaq can come in for 17 min, with Kristic serving as insurance.  Post-Trade we have the luxury of going small with Jeff Green at the 4 and KG at the 5 which we would not have otherwise.  

THAT's the assumption that I abhor.  If I was 100% confident that JP and Shaq could combine for 42 minutes a game through June, I'd probably be a trade supporter.  

That's one helluva assumption, though, not after what we've seen all season.

And I ain't playing Jeff Green at the 4, not unless I absolutely have to.