With the benefit of hindsight, do you think Danny regrets the Perk trade?

[winsomme]

do you think we have been getting killed in the paint since the trade?

Rebounding differential for February: -1.4
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in February: 10.5

Rebounding differential for March: -1.2
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in March: 10.5

Also, we are and continue to be the team with the second best defense at the rim, as measured by eFG% at the rim.

In fact, if you look pre and post trade, the only stat where the opponents are doing better after the trade is that they are hitting almost 1 more three a game since then, certainly not because of Perkins.

Almost all of our troubles post trade come from poor offense, as we are scoring almost 5 fewer points per game since then.  And is likely caused because of the injuries to Rondo, BBD, West combined with Allen and Pierce running out of gas (Pierce score 17.8 per game in March, as opposed to 18.8 through the season, while shootin 28.3% from 3, as opposed to the season average of 37, and Allen scored 15.1, as opposed to the season average of 16.8 - that right there almost gives you the entire scoring difference pre and post trade).

right, so this is why Roy has no faith that anybody will acknowledge at the end of the season that the trade was bad. People who like the trade will continue to find some stat that tells them the trade was good or not the problem.

[Tai]

How could he not regret it? Green, the vaunted best player in the trade has been thoroughly unimpressive. On this board, and elsewhere, some Celtics fans pledge that once JG learns the system ( as if learning a basketball system is akin to quantum physics) we’ll all be in for a real treat. Well, it’s been over a month, and some of us are beginning to suspect he’ll never quite get it.

Meanwhile Perk has taken OKC by storm. No learning curve for him. Haven't heard Scott Brooks suggest that Perk was " too nice" Nope, in Thunderland all is well. Perk has altered the identity of OKC, unleashed Serge Ibaka,and been welcomed as the second coming. Go read Thunder blogs, I challenge you to find multiple forum threads lamenting the loss of Jeff Green. Don't worry I'll wait.......

 I’ve thrown in the proverbial white towel on Gerald Jeff Green. I want my Perky back, and I suspect, down in the dark barrels of Danny subconscious he does too. 

Are we really comparing Jeff Green to Gerald Green? And "Perky"?

Ok, whatever, but I don't think JG has done half as bad as you're making him out to be. All I got from your post was that he hasn't done well enough to make you forget about Perk.

[StartOrien]

do you think we have been getting killed in the paint since the trade?

Rebounding differential for February: -1.4
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in February: 10.5

Rebounding differential for March: -1.2
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in March: 10.5

Also, we are and continue to be the team with the second best defense at the rim, as measured by eFG% at the rim.

In fact, if you look pre and post trade, the only stat where the opponents are doing better after the trade is that they are hitting almost 1 more three a game since then, certainly not because of Perkins.

Almost all of our troubles post trade come from poor offense, as we are scoring almost 5 fewer points per game since then.  And is likely caused because of the injuries to Rondo, BBD, West combined with Allen and Pierce running out of gas (Pierce score 17.8 per game in March, as opposed to 18.8 through the season, while shootin 28.3% from 3, as opposed to the season average of 37, and Allen scored 15.1, as opposed to the season average of 16.8 - that right there almost gives you the entire scoring difference pre and post trade).

right, so this is why Roy has no faith that anybody will acknowledge at the end of the season that the trade was bad. People who like the trade will continue to find some stat that tells them the trade was good or not the problem.

If we're just going to throw around lobs at groups of people - why is there a strong contingent of anti-trade people that need for people who were pro-trade to say they were wrong? Just two groups of people that saw a trade differently.

[CelticG1]

do you think we have been getting killed in the paint since the trade?

Rebounding differential for February: -1.4
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in February: 10.5

Rebounding differential for March: -1.2
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in March: 10.5

Also, we are and continue to be the team with the second best defense at the rim, as measured by eFG% at the rim.

In fact, if you look pre and post trade, the only stat where the opponents are doing better after the trade is that they are hitting almost 1 more three a game since then, certainly not because of Perkins.

Almost all of our troubles post trade come from poor offense, as we are scoring almost 5 fewer points per game since then.  And is likely caused because of the injuries to Rondo, BBD, West combined with Allen and Pierce running out of gas (Pierce score 17.8 per game in March, as opposed to 18.8 through the season, while shootin 28.3% from 3, as opposed to the season average of 37, and Allen scored 15.1, as opposed to the season average of 16.8 - that right there almost gives you the entire scoring difference pre and post trade).

right, so this is why Roy has no faith that anybody will acknowledge at the end of the season that the trade was bad. People who like the trade will continue to find some stat that tells them the trade was good or not the problem.

Well it works both ways. Basically if the Celtics don't win a championship the scapegoat will be the trade NO MATTER WHAT. There is only one outcome that will please people against the trade. If the trade was never made and we lost there probably wouldn't be any uproar that Perk should have been traded.

[winsomme]

I also want to point out that I don't really look at this as a "hindsight" debate. Everything that is up for debate was laid out at the time of the trade. Many people noted: Green as being extremely gifted but not aggressive or particularly good on D, Nenad having a nice soft shot but a defensive and rebounding game to match, and Perk being much more likely to return to health than Shaq for the playoff run.

Those were the questions at the time of the trade are still are...

  I think you're exaggerating everyone's faith in Perk being healthy when he went out of the lineup with a knee issue (other knee, I know) shortly after returning  to the lineup. If Shaq is playing again by the time the playoffs start does "much more likely" become "no more likely"?

Well level of health certainly is also a factor, but the "likelihoods" won't change because those were assessments at the time of the trade.

There was definitely disagreement on the likelihoods, but I really don't see how one could argue Shaq being more likely to return to action than Perk.

  You're talking about "assessments" made without any knowledge of the medical condition of the players involved.

Well we know Shaq is the oldest player in the NBA and is 7-2 300+ lbs and we know that he had two separate injuries on the same foot and we also know that Perk had an MCL sprain and is 26 and that OKC believed was not a big problem...

  So, again, we don't know how severe either injury was seen as, we don't know how much OKC was expecting from him this year, and we don't know what the prognosis was for any of the players involved at the time of the trade. It's worth pointing out that plenty of posters were sure that JO was done for the year, I'd say that his coming back sums up the amount of insight people had into any of the injury issues.

going back to our circular debate, pretty sure OKC said they wanted Perk for both now and later and felt that he was going to be fine.

as for Shaq, we knew how long he had already been out for (speaks to severity), we knew what was injured (achilles, a notoriously a difficult injury to heal) and we knew that he is a massive man and the oldest player in the league. People predicted Shaq would struggle to get back on the court to play at the level necessary to replace Perk and it was based on these known factors...

[Tai]

do you think we have been getting killed in the paint since the trade?

Rebounding differential for February: -1.4
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in February: 10.5

Rebounding differential for March: -1.2
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in March: 10.5

Also, we are and continue to be the team with the second best defense at the rim, as measured by eFG% at the rim.

In fact, if you look pre and post trade, the only stat where the opponents are doing better after the trade is that they are hitting almost 1 more three a game since then, certainly not because of Perkins.

Almost all of our troubles post trade come from poor offense, as we are scoring almost 5 fewer points per game since then.  And is likely caused because of the injuries to Rondo, BBD, West combined with Allen and Pierce running out of gas (Pierce score 17.8 per game in March, as opposed to 18.8 through the season, while shootin 28.3% from 3, as opposed to the season average of 37, and Allen scored 15.1, as opposed to the season average of 16.8 - that right there almost gives you the entire scoring difference pre and post trade).

right, so this is why Roy has no faith that anybody will acknowledge at the end of the season that the trade was bad. People who like the trade will continue to find some stat that tells them the trade was good or not the problem.

Lemme guess, it's not in the numbers and everyone loved Perk and Rondo was his best friend and Doc declared the starting lineup undefeated in the playoffs with Perkins and that teams aren't scared of us anymore and that Jeff Green looks higher than Marquis and Euro centers don't know an equivalent word for "defense" in their language..........

Uh, I'm sorry, what else? 

[winsomme]

do you think we have been getting killed in the paint since the trade?

Rebounding differential for February: -1.4
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in February: 10.5

Rebounding differential for March: -1.2
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in March: 10.5

Also, we are and continue to be the team with the second best defense at the rim, as measured by eFG% at the rim.

In fact, if you look pre and post trade, the only stat where the opponents are doing better after the trade is that they are hitting almost 1 more three a game since then, certainly not because of Perkins.

Almost all of our troubles post trade come from poor offense, as we are scoring almost 5 fewer points per game since then.  And is likely caused because of the injuries to Rondo, BBD, West combined with Allen and Pierce running out of gas (Pierce score 17.8 per game in March, as opposed to 18.8 through the season, while shootin 28.3% from 3, as opposed to the season average of 37, and Allen scored 15.1, as opposed to the season average of 16.8 - that right there almost gives you the entire scoring difference pre and post trade).

right, so this is why Roy has no faith that anybody will acknowledge at the end of the season that the trade was bad. People who like the trade will continue to find some stat that tells them the trade was good or not the problem.

If we're just going to throw around lobs at groups of people - why is there a strong contingent of anti-trade people that need for people who were pro-trade to say they were wrong? Just two groups of people that saw a trade differently.

It would be nice if there was some accountability for the positions we take, I suppose.

[Shamrocker]

How could he not regret it? Green, the vaunted best player in the trade has been thoroughly unimpressive. On this board, and elsewhere, some Celtics fans pledge that once JG learns the system ( as if learning a basketball system is akin to quantum physics) we’ll all be in for a real treat. Well, it’s been over a month, and some of us are beginning to suspect he’ll never quite get it.

Meanwhile Perk has taken OKC by storm. No learning curve for him. Haven't heard Scott Brooks suggest that Perk was " too nice" Nope, in Thunderland all is well. Perk has altered the identity of OKC, unleashed Serge Ibaka,and been welcomed as the second coming. Go read Thunder blogs, I challenge you to find multiple forum threads lamenting the loss of Jeff Green. Don't worry I'll wait.......

 I’ve thrown in the proverbial white towel on Gerald Jeff Green. I want my Perky back, and I suspect, down in the dark barrels of Danny subconscious he does too. 

Are we really comparing Jeff Green to Gerald Green? And "Perky"?

I never suggested you were, I am.   

[vinnie]

9.8 points a game and 2.5 rebounds per game In nearly 23 minutes is what Green has delivered. Sounds like numbers that Anthony Parker or a bunch of other guys could produce. I have never been a Jeff Green fan, but would love to get to love him. I just don't see it.

[StartOrien]

It would be nice if there was some accountability for the positions we take, I suppose.

I think you'll get some of it, but it's going to result the same way most do: Some will say they were wrong, some will stick to their guns. You're looking for a conclusion on something made up of variables. There's no way of seeing how the season would've ended w/ Perk.

I'm a pro-trade guy, I think the trade needed to be made b/c we had a huge gaping hole at the backup 3. The only way I could completely concede to being wrong is that if Green played terrible, and Paul Pierce still looked gassed at the end of our run.

[winsomme]

do you think we have been getting killed in the paint since the trade?

Rebounding differential for February: -1.4
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in February: 10.5

Rebounding differential for March: -1.2
Offensive rebounds per game allowed in March: 10.5

Also, we are and continue to be the team with the second best defense at the rim, as measured by eFG% at the rim.

In fact, if you look pre and post trade, the only stat where the opponents are doing better after the trade is that they are hitting almost 1 more three a game since then, certainly not because of Perkins.

Almost all of our troubles post trade come from poor offense, as we are scoring almost 5 fewer points per game since then.  And is likely caused because of the injuries to Rondo, BBD, West combined with Allen and Pierce running out of gas (Pierce score 17.8 per game in March, as opposed to 18.8 through the season, while shootin 28.3% from 3, as opposed to the season average of 37, and Allen scored 15.1, as opposed to the season average of 16.8 - that right there almost gives you the entire scoring difference pre and post trade).

right, so this is why Roy has no faith that anybody will acknowledge at the end of the season that the trade was bad. People who like the trade will continue to find some stat that tells them the trade was good or not the problem.

Lemme guess, it's not in the numbers and everyone loved Perk and Rondo was his best friend and Doc declared the starting lineup undefeated in the playoffs with Perkins and that teams aren't scared of us anymore and that Jeff Green looks higher than Marquis and Euro centers don't know an equivalent word for "defense" in their language..........

Uh, I'm sorry, what else? 

oh it's in the numbers. it's all in the numbers somewhere, but numbers can be manipulated or grouped or variables left out to demonstrate certain conclusions. ever heard of the Simpson's Paradox?

[CelticG1]

9.8 points a game and 2.5 rebounds per game In nearly 23 minutes is what Green has delivered. Sounds like numbers that Anthony Parker or a bunch of other guys could produce. I have never been a Jeff Green fan, but would love to get to love him. I just don't see it.

5.8 points a game and 7.6 rebounds in 24 minutes is what Perk has delivered. Sounds like numbers Krstic is about producing 9.3 points and 5.6 rebounds in 24 min.

See what I did there ?  

[BudweiserCeltic]

I don't think he regrets the trade, and I don't either. Nothing that has transpired so far has changed my mind in regards to the trade. In fact, it has solidified my position that this was a good trade for us.

[dlpin]

right, so this is why Roy has no faith that anybody will acknowledge at the end of the season that the trade was bad. People who like the trade will continue to find some stat that tells them the trade was good or not the problem.

This isn't just "some stat."
Perkins was never a "do it all" center. We've always liked him and valued him for 2 things: defense and rebounding. If there is no significant drop off in defense and rebounding after he was gone, it is only natural to assume that we are not significantly worse without him in those two areas.

The reason for the recent slump is as clear as day: 4th quarter scoring. So if a team goes in a slump where it allows the same amount of points as before, but scores less, and scores less specifically in the 4th quarter, I think it is safe to say that the cause for that is not the loss of a defensive player that played the least amount of minutes in the 4th quarter.


I have no invested interest in this trade being good or bad. I have an interest in empirical reality. If the celtics lose out because they have bad interior defense and rebounding, I have no problems acknowledging the trade was a culprit. But that so far has not been the case. The case right now is that the celtics have gone from a net positive 4th quarter scoring margin to a deeply negative one (-5 over the slump). Which means that the culprit is clearly age, not the absence of a player who didn't score much, specially in the 4th quarter.

[Shamrocker]

9.8 points a game and 2.5 rebounds per game In nearly 23 minutes is what Green has delivered. Sounds like numbers that Anthony Parker or a bunch of other guys could produce. I have never been a Jeff Green fan, but would love to get to love him. I just don't see it.

5.8 points a game and 7.6 rebounds in 24 minutes is what Perk has delivered. Sounds like numbers Krstic is about producing 9.3 points and 5.6 rebounds in 24 min.

See what I did there ?  

That’s not necessarily the argument.  Vinnie can speak for himself, but he clearly was comparing JG production with other reserve 3s, not Perk.