Honestly, Every other NBA team sucks

[OsirusCeltics]

This is a little dated, but Ray had hit one more than Kobe over a 5-year period into the 2008-2009 season. Kobe, however, had taken many more shots. Lebron was number one, and suprise, Vince Carter was number 2. So, Ray wins this one by one shot for the period of time that this sample measures.

Over the same period of time, Kobe is tied with Lebron for number 1 in the playoffs, both hitting 50 percent of their game winning tries.

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

This is regular season. Show me playoff stats, which Ray has ALOT more

[GreenFaith1819]

Ok - I'll admit I'm a bit of a homer...I took off my green-tinted glasses for just a sec, and yes Kobe does in fact have a few clutch videos.

I won't post them, though.

But yes - Kobe has hit his share of clutch shots. Like Vinnie stated - stats are important, too.

[vinnie]

This is a little dated, but Ray had hit one more than Kobe over a 5-year period into the 2008-2009 season. Kobe, however, had taken many more shots. Lebron was number one, and suprise, Vince Carter was number 2. So, Ray wins this one by one shot for the period of time that this sample measures.

Over the same period of time, Kobe is tied with Lebron for number 1 in the playoffs, both hitting 50 percent of their game winning tries.

Also, click on the links to the "real clutch play" stats. Kobe is way ahead of Ray. Not even close.

I love Ray Allen, but this is pure foolishness.

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

This is regular season. Show me playoff stats, which Ray has ALOT more

Read down the bottom of the page to see playoffs. But this only covers through playoffs for 2007-2008. Ray does not show up. Anyone who thinks Ray Allen is a better overall player than Kobe Bryant simply is not thinking straight.

Also, click on the links to "real clutch play" stats and you will see that Kobe is far ahead of Ray. I love Ray Allen, but this is pure foolishness.

[Roy H.]

Wait, is hitting big shots the number one factor in determining a player?  Since when?  I'll gladly take the Charles Barkleys and John Stocktons of the world over the Robert Horrys and Steve Kerrs.

I love Ray, and I doubt I've said a negative word about him on here.  However, he's simply not as good as Kobe.  Ray is a better shooter -- which is probably why he's also a better clutch shooter -- but Kobe trumps him almost everywhere else.

[Donoghus]

This is a little dated, but Ray had hit one more than Kobe over a 5-year period into the 2008-2009 season. Kobe, however, had taken many more shots. Lebron was number one, and suprise, Vince Carter was number 2. So, Ray wins this one by one shot for the period of time that this sample measures.

Over the same period of time, Kobe is tied with Lebron for number 1 in the playoffs, both hitting 50 percent of their game winning tries.

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

This is regular season. Show me playoff stats, which Ray has ALOT more

Let's see those numbers then.

[OsirusCeltics]

Ray, clutch?
Since when has Ray been "clutch"?

If I see it correctly, he cost us the Finals last year - what he'd go, 2-11 in Game 7 last year? Not to mention all those other games he took off in the spotlight. To talk about Ray being "clutch" is a joke. Ray has proven to be about as clutch as Vince Carter - just superb... until you really need him.

Wow - surely you jest. Like I stated earlier - Kobe is truly a great player, but I don't think he matches up with Ray Ray in the clutch department:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1KlPerGzBY

My Word - that one @ about 1:00 was nearly from halfcourt, and he hit all net.....

TP
Thank you. But like you said Ray is more clutch but you think Kobe is more talented. I don't agree with that, this is my point

There have been so many offensively talented player in history that Kobe does not stand out. David Thompson, Dominique Wilkins, George Gervin, Earl Monroe. But that doesn't automatically put them in the top 10 because of that. Its about being on of the leaders on your team and stepping up in clutch moments. Being a well rounded player also is important. And Ray is better than Kobe in that aspect

[OsirusCeltics]

Wait, is hitting big shots the number one factor in determining a player?  Since when?  I'll gladly take the Charles Barkleys and John Stocktons of the world over the Robert Horrys and Steve Kerrs.

I love Ray, and I doubt I've said a negative word about him on here.  However, he's simply not as good as Kobe.  Ray is a better shooter -- which is probably why he's also a better clutch shooter -- but Kobe trumps him almost everywhere else.

I'm not using that to say Ray is better. I'm saying the fact that Kobe is not as clutch and not a great leader puts him way out of the top 20 of all time. How can you be considered on the greats if don't even have those attributes?

[GreenFaith1819]

Ray, clutch?
Since when has Ray been "clutch"?

If I see it correctly, he cost us the Finals last year - what he'd go, 2-11 in Game 7 last year? Not to mention all those other games he took off in the spotlight. To talk about Ray being "clutch" is a joke. Ray has proven to be about as clutch as Vince Carter - just superb... until you really need him.

Wow - surely you jest. Like I stated earlier - Kobe is truly a great player, but I don't think he matches up with Ray Ray in the clutch department:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1KlPerGzBY

My Word - that one @ about 1:00 was nearly from halfcourt, and he hit all net.....

TP
Thank you. But like you said Ray is more clutch but you think Kobe is more talented. I don't agree with that, this is my point

There have been so many offensively talented player in history that Kobe does not stand out. David Thompson, Dominique Wilkins, George Gervin, Earl Monroe. But that doesn't automatically put them in the top 10 because of that. Its about being on of the leaders on your team and stepping up in clutch moments. Being a well rounded player also is important. And Ray is better than Kobe in that aspect

Your Fanhood is truly appreciated in these times for The Celtics and its players. I'd TP you again, but I must wait for the karma effect to wear off.

[BballTim]

Lol when's the last time Kobe hit a clutch shot deep in the playoffs/NBA Finals? .......**crickets**....

How many playoff games do you think will be decided by a "clutch play"?

Ray is a better 3 point shooter but Kobe is the better overall player.

Ray is the better overall player. If a player is not that clutch and you're not gonna count the final two minutes then he's not a very good player to begin with

The NBA is using Kobe's name to sell Jordan tickets, and its so annoying.
I don't know if you ever watched Ray on the Bucks or Sonics, but he was a totally different player on those teams. He had to change his game greatly to fit the Celtic system. That's unselfishness, something I can't say for Kobe

This is laughable and this is my last comment on it. Kobe is one of the top 10 players in the history of the league.

  BTW, I was pretty sure this wasn't your last comment on it...

[vinnie]

Lol when's the last time Kobe hit a clutch shot deep in the playoffs/NBA Finals? .......**crickets**....

How many playoff games do you think will be decided by a "clutch play"?

Ray is a better 3 point shooter but Kobe is the better overall player.

Ray is the better overall player. If a player is not that clutch and you're not gonna count the final two minutes then he's not a very good player to begin with

The NBA is using Kobe's name to sell Jordan tickets, and its so annoying.
I don't know if you ever watched Ray on the Bucks or Sonics, but he was a totally different player on those teams. He had to change his game greatly to fit the Celtic system. That's unselfishness, something I can't say for Kobe

This is laughable and this is my last comment on it. Kobe is one of the top 10 players in the history of the league.

  BTW, I was pretty sure this wasn't your last comment on it...

Hey. Guess what? You are right. But, I didn't know you were the hall monitor around here. Thanks for keeping checks on me. I really appreciate it.

[Roy H.]

Wait, is hitting big shots the number one factor in determining a player?  Since when?  I'll gladly take the Charles Barkleys and John Stocktons of the world over the Robert Horrys and Steve Kerrs.

I love Ray, and I doubt I've said a negative word about him on here.  However, he's simply not as good as Kobe.  Ray is a better shooter -- which is probably why he's also a better clutch shooter -- but Kobe trumps him almost everywhere else.

I'm not using that to say Ray is better. I'm saying the fact that Kobe is not as clutch and not a great leader puts him way out of the top 20 of all time. How can you be considered on the greats if don't even have those attributes?

Okay, if the clutchness doesn't make Ray better, what does?

Ray is the better overall player.

Kobe is a better defender, a better passer, a better penetrator, a better rebounder, and is a more prolific scorer.  Ray is a better shooter.

If your entire argument doesn't hinge on your version of "clutchness", then how exactly isn't Kobe better overall?

[OsirusCeltics]

This is a little dated, but Ray had hit one more than Kobe over a 5-year period into the 2008-2009 season. Kobe, however, had taken many more shots. Lebron was number one, and suprise, Vince Carter was number 2. So, Ray wins this one by one shot for the period of time that this sample measures.

Over the same period of time, Kobe is tied with Lebron for number 1 in the playoffs, both hitting 50 percent of their game winning tries.

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

This is regular season. Show me playoff stats, which Ray has ALOT more

Let's see those numbers then.

I don't use numbers, I watch the games.
The Cavs were #1 in almost every statistical category in 2009, then lost in the EFC to the Magic. They were supposed to be this unstoppable team. But anyone with eyes would have seen the Cavs that year were severely flawed

I already named all the moments Ray had and all the ones Kobe didn't post-Shaq. I don't want to write it again

[FromDowntown]

Keep in mind that the OP is the one that started all those "overrated" threads.  And we all know how rooted in reality those were.

[OsirusCeltics]

Wait, is hitting big shots the number one factor in determining a player?  Since when?  I'll gladly take the Charles Barkleys and John Stocktons of the world over the Robert Horrys and Steve Kerrs.

I love Ray, and I doubt I've said a negative word about him on here.  However, he's simply not as good as Kobe.  Ray is a better shooter -- which is probably why he's also a better clutch shooter -- but Kobe trumps him almost everywhere else.

I'm not using that to say Ray is better. I'm saying the fact that Kobe is not as clutch and not a great leader puts him way out of the top 20 of all time. How can you be considered on the greats if don't even have those attributes?

Okay, if the clutchness doesn't make Ray better, what does?

Ray is the better overall player.

Kobe is a better defender, a better passer, a better penetrator, a better rebounder, and is a more prolific scorer.  Ray is a better shooter.

If your entire argument doesn't hinge on your version of "clutchness", then how exactly isn't Kobe better overall?

-Kobe is a better passer
-Rebounding is about the same
-As far as penetrating, its about equal. I think people seem to forget Ray as a Buck or Sonic. He drove almost everytime he had the ball and took people off the dribble. He was actually a penetrator first and improved his shooting after his 3rd season
-As far as defense, its his awards that make Kobe overhyped. All of those 1st team all-defensive selections he got in the past should have gone to Bruce Bowen, Artest, and Shane Battier who were head over heels better defenders

[OsirusCeltics]

For all the people attacking me lol
Just because I may have different views then maybe 95% of the fans, doesn't mean I am a troll.

Can't I have my own opinion?