Anyone else jealous of Rose's shooting?

[dtrader]

I'm jealous that Rose keeps improving, while Rondo hasn't gotten any better over the last two years.  The minutes and assists are up, but everything else is down- shooting percentage, points, rebounds, free throw shooting.  His PER has gone from the 19's to the 16's last year to this year.  Hopefully it's just a focus thing with him, and he turms it on in the playoffs.

  When Rondo and Rose faced off in the playoffs two Rondo wasn't an all-star, he wasn't all-defense and he wasn't leading (or almost leading) the league in assists. To say he hasn't improved is ridiculous.

Winning awards doesn't necessarily show that you improved...especially when there's barely any competition for your spot.

  No, it's actually his play that shows he improved, and pretty much everyone associated with the Celts or the nba (that I've heard comment on Rondo) seem to agree with that.
  

Well, it was your own initial statement, that used awards as a measuring stick. I simply countered it.  Saying that everyone associated with the Celts or the NBA agrees that Rondo has improved, doesn't seem reasonable when it's posted on a Celtics NBA forum, in a thread created for (and dominated by) discussion about Rondos lack of development.

  Haha. I meant coaches, players, Ainge and the like, not the peanut gallery.

So basically you're just talking about the people whose paychecks and/or work environment could be negatively effected by their public statements on the subject?  LOL. Doesn't seem like the population I'd look to if I wanted to hear honest opinions.

Well than what about the rest of the NBA and oppossing coaches/players/writers? Because it's not just people associated with the Celtics that have said Rondo has improved.

How often have you heard ANYONE associated with ANY NBA team say that ANY player hasn't improved?  It rarely ever happens. That doesn't mean every player in the league is getting better. It just means that people recognize that they have nothing to gain by calling players out with negative comments like that. If a reporter asks "what do you think of Rajon Rondos play", do you really expect a player/coach/GM/etc to say "I don't think he's any better than he was 2 years ago"? That's just not realistic.  It doesn't mean they don't feel that way. It just doesn't make sense to say it publicly.

If I was a player competing against Rondo, I'd tell the media, that he's "the best in the game today, and has become a real leader for the celts"....Then when the game started, I'd give him 10ft to shoot like a bum, and be in his ear the whole game about how much he sucks. Then after the game, I'd go right back to praising him. That's how the game is played.

I'd expect them not to say this because it's not true. I mean if you really think Rondo hasn't improved in the last 2 or 3 years then I don't really know what to say. And if coaches really did think that, why would they vote for him to make the all-star team? Or the all defensive team? (Yes, I know, other players were injured, moved out West, ect...they still could've have picked someone else)

Also, I'm not just talking about coaches or GM's....I included writers/bloggers in there too. What to do they have to gain by saying that Rondo has gotten better?

You haven't noticed that most major writers/bloggers write essentially the same stuff? This isn't necessarily limited to sports...It's the norm with most media outlets. Writers have stories to write, and often specific topics (whats hot at the moment...ie a PG with record assist numbers) they're given to focus on. They have their paychecks to gain, and churn out whats asked of them.  

If your boss asks you to write a story on the PG that's leading the league in assists and just made his first ASG, you probably wouldn't take that as an opportunity to break down the shortcomings in his game (if you wanted to keep your job).  Maybe they should.  Ultimately, people tend to do whats "politically correct", and try not to ruffle feathers.  

It's not so much an issue of "what do they have to gain" by saying that Rondo has improved.  It's a question of "is it worth bucking the trend, to state your personal opinion on a subject (completely unrelated to your life), if it carries with it the risk of you bearing the negative consequences".

Again...it doesn't make sense to bring up the awards as a proof of improvement. If he stayed the same, and everyone better than him left, then it would only make sense for the coaches etc. to vote him on, because at that point, even if he wasn't the "best there is", he would be the "best available"...thus justifying his selection.  

[BballTim]

How often have you heard ANYONE associated with ANY NBA team say that ANY player hasn't improved?  It rarely ever happens. That doesn't mean every player in the league is getting better. It just means that people recognize that they have nothing to gain by calling players out with negative comments like that. If a reporter asks "what do you think of Rajon Rondos play", do you really expect a player/coach/GM/etc to say "I don't think he's any better than he was 2 years ago"? That's just not realistic.  It doesn't mean they don't feel that way. It just doesn't make sense to say it publicly.

If I was a player competing against Rondo, I'd tell the media, that he's "the best in the game today, and has become a real leader for the celts"....Then when the game started, I'd give him 10ft to shoot like a bum, and be in his ear the whole game about how much he sucks. Then after the game, I'd go right back to praising him. That's how the game is played.

  Ok. Whatever. There's no way to "prove" Rondo's improved. Just like there's no real way to "prove" that Rose has improved. The real answer is that it's extremely obvious to most people. If you don't see it, you don't see it. Agree to disagree.

[dtrader]

How often have you heard ANYONE associated with ANY NBA team say that ANY player hasn't improved?  It rarely ever happens. That doesn't mean every player in the league is getting better. It just means that people recognize that they have nothing to gain by calling players out with negative comments like that. If a reporter asks "what do you think of Rajon Rondos play", do you really expect a player/coach/GM/etc to say "I don't think he's any better than he was 2 years ago"? That's just not realistic.  It doesn't mean they don't feel that way. It just doesn't make sense to say it publicly.

If I was a player competing against Rondo, I'd tell the media, that he's "the best in the game today, and has become a real leader for the celts"....Then when the game started, I'd give him 10ft to shoot like a bum, and be in his ear the whole game about how much he sucks. Then after the game, I'd go right back to praising him. That's how the game is played.

  Ok. Whatever. There's no way to "prove" Rondo's improved. Just like there's no real way to "prove" that Rose has improved. The real answer is that it's extremely obvious to most people. If you don't see it, you don't see it. Agree to disagree.

Well...the foundation of the main discussion (and title from the OP) is about SHOOTING.  I'm not usually a statistics person, but I don't recall ever seeing any numbers related to SHOOTING, that show Rondo improving.  I am however familiar with The substantial improvements Rose has made in that regard.  If someone could make a solid statistical argument for Rondos shooting getting notably better, then I would have to "agree to disagree" as you suggest (as I would then be believing something that I could not prove).

[ejk3489]

I'm jealous that Rose keeps improving, while Rondo hasn't gotten any better over the last two years.  The minutes and assists are up, but everything else is down- shooting percentage, points, rebounds, free throw shooting.  His PER has gone from the 19's to the 16's last year to this year.  Hopefully it's just a focus thing with him, and he turms it on in the playoffs.

  When Rondo and Rose faced off in the playoffs two Rondo wasn't an all-star, he wasn't all-defense and he wasn't leading (or almost leading) the league in assists. To say he hasn't improved is ridiculous.

Winning awards doesn't necessarily show that you improved...especially when there's barely any competition for your spot.

  No, it's actually his play that shows he improved, and pretty much everyone associated with the Celts or the nba (that I've heard comment on Rondo) seem to agree with that.
  

Well, it was your own initial statement, that used awards as a measuring stick. I simply countered it.  Saying that everyone associated with the Celts or the NBA agrees that Rondo has improved, doesn't seem reasonable when it's posted on a Celtics NBA forum, in a thread created for (and dominated by) discussion about Rondos lack of development.

  Haha. I meant coaches, players, Ainge and the like, not the peanut gallery.

So basically you're just talking about the people whose paychecks and/or work environment could be negatively effected by their public statements on the subject?  LOL. Doesn't seem like the population I'd look to if I wanted to hear honest opinions.

Well than what about the rest of the NBA and oppossing coaches/players/writers? Because it's not just people associated with the Celtics that have said Rondo has improved.

How often have you heard ANYONE associated with ANY NBA team say that ANY player hasn't improved?  It rarely ever happens. That doesn't mean every player in the league is getting better. It just means that people recognize that they have nothing to gain by calling players out with negative comments like that. If a reporter asks "what do you think of Rajon Rondos play", do you really expect a player/coach/GM/etc to say "I don't think he's any better than he was 2 years ago"? That's just not realistic.  It doesn't mean they don't feel that way. It just doesn't make sense to say it publicly.

If I was a player competing against Rondo, I'd tell the media, that he's "the best in the game today, and has become a real leader for the celts"....Then when the game started, I'd give him 10ft to shoot like a bum, and be in his ear the whole game about how much he sucks. Then after the game, I'd go right back to praising him. That's how the game is played.

I'd expect them not to say this because it's not true. I mean if you really think Rondo hasn't improved in the last 2 or 3 years then I don't really know what to say. And if coaches really did think that, why would they vote for him to make the all-star team? Or the all defensive team? (Yes, I know, other players were injured, moved out West, ect...they still could've have picked someone else)

Also, I'm not just talking about coaches or GM's....I included writers/bloggers in there too. What to do they have to gain by saying that Rondo has gotten better?

You haven't noticed that most major writers/bloggers write essentially the same stuff? This isn't necessarily limited to sports...It's the norm with most media outlets. Writers have stories to write, and often specific topics (whats hot at the moment...ie a PG with record assist numbers) they're given to focus on. They have their paychecks to gain, and churn out whats asked of them.  

If your boss asks you to write a story on the PG that's leading the league in assists and just made his first ASG, you probably wouldn't take that as an opportunity to break down the shortcomings in his game (if you wanted to keep your job).  Maybe they should.  Ultimately, people tend to do whats "politically correct", and try not to ruffle feathers.  

It's not so much an issue of "what do they have to gain" by saying that Rondo has improved.  It's a question of "is it worth bucking the trend, to state your personal opinion on a subject (completely unrelated to your life), if it carries with it the risk of you bearing the negative consequences".

Again...it doesn't make sense to bring up the awards as a proof of improvement. If he stayed the same, and everyone better than him left, then it would only make sense for the coaches etc. to vote him on, because at that point, even if he wasn't the "best there is", he would be the "best available"...thus justifying his selection.  

Ok, so you're just going to ignore what coaches, players, GM's, and what pretty much everyone else has said about the improvement of Rondo? Is everyone just making this up to create a good storyline? I highly doubt it. I mean I haven't seen anyone hesitate to write about Rondo's inability to shoot or hit free throws.

[dtrader]

How many articles have been written about Rondos inability to shoot, and where are all these articles?  I think they would be quite hard to find lol.

And yes...as a rule, I would prefer to formulate my own opinions on a subject based on personal experience and observation, versus adopting the ideas offered through the media.

[BballTim]

How often have you heard ANYONE associated with ANY NBA team say that ANY player hasn't improved?  It rarely ever happens. That doesn't mean every player in the league is getting better. It just means that people recognize that they have nothing to gain by calling players out with negative comments like that. If a reporter asks "what do you think of Rajon Rondos play", do you really expect a player/coach/GM/etc to say "I don't think he's any better than he was 2 years ago"? That's just not realistic.  It doesn't mean they don't feel that way. It just doesn't make sense to say it publicly.

If I was a player competing against Rondo, I'd tell the media, that he's "the best in the game today, and has become a real leader for the celts"....Then when the game started, I'd give him 10ft to shoot like a bum, and be in his ear the whole game about how much he sucks. Then after the game, I'd go right back to praising him. That's how the game is played.

  Ok. Whatever. There's no way to "prove" Rondo's improved. Just like there's no real way to "prove" that Rose has improved. The real answer is that it's extremely obvious to most people. If you don't see it, you don't see it. Agree to disagree.

Well...the foundation of the main discussion (and title from the OP) is about SHOOTING.  I'm not usually a statistics person, but I don't recall ever seeing any numbers related to SHOOTING, that show Rondo improving.  I am however familiar with The substantial improvements Rose has made in that regard.  If someone could make a solid statistical argument for Rondos shooting getting notably better, then I would have to "agree to disagree" as you suggest (as I would then be believing something that I could not prove).

  The OP might be talking about SHOOTING but the post that I RESPONDED TO was talking about OTHER THINGS AS WELL.

[ejk3489]

How many articles have been written about Rondos inability to shoot, and where are all these articles?  I think they would be quite hard to find lol.

And yes...as a rule, I would prefer to formulate my own opinions on a subject based on personal experience and observation, versus adopting the ideas offered through the media.

Seriously? You've never read an article about Rondo's shooting?

Ok, well with a quick search, here are a few:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/16446/still-missing-rajon-rondos-jumper

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/21036/guard-rajon-rondo-already

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/11/rajon-rondo-gaining-confidence-in-jump-shot/

http://celticshub.com/2010/10/22/preseason-recap-examining-rondos-jump-shot/

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/12/rajon-rondos-jump-shot-remains-a-work-in-progress/

http://dimemag.com/2010/08/breaking-news-rajon-rondo-suffers-broken-jumper/

http://nbaplaybook.com/2010/11/20/the-problem-with-ignoring-rajon-rondo/

[dtrader]

How often have you heard ANYONE associated with ANY NBA team say that ANY player hasn't improved?  It rarely ever happens. That doesn't mean every player in the league is getting better. It just means that people recognize that they have nothing to gain by calling players out with negative comments like that. If a reporter asks "what do you think of Rajon Rondos play", do you really expect a player/coach/GM/etc to say "I don't think he's any better than he was 2 years ago"? That's just not realistic.  It doesn't mean they don't feel that way. It just doesn't make sense to say it publicly.

If I was a player competing against Rondo, I'd tell the media, that he's "the best in the game today, and has become a real leader for the celts"....Then when the game started, I'd give him 10ft to shoot like a bum, and be in his ear the whole game about how much he sucks. Then after the game, I'd go right back to praising him. That's how the game is played.

  Ok. Whatever. There's no way to "prove" Rondo's improved. Just like there's no real way to "prove" that Rose has improved. The real answer is that it's extremely obvious to most people. If you don't see it, you don't see it. Agree to disagree.

Well...the foundation of the main discussion (and title from the OP) is about SHOOTING.  I'm not usually a statistics person, but I don't recall ever seeing any numbers related to SHOOTING, that show Rondo improving.  I am however familiar with The substantial improvements Rose has made in that regard.  If someone could make a solid statistical argument for Rondos shooting getting notably better, then I would have to "agree to disagree" as you suggest (as I would then be believing something that I could not prove).

  The OP might be talking about SHOOTING but the post that I RESPONDED TO was talking about OTHER THINGS AS WELL.

The post that you made the awards reference response to, specifically mentioned "shooting percentage, points, and free throw percentage".  Other things were included as well, but it appears to be predominantly focused on shooting.

And ejk3489....did you read the articles you referenced?  Maybe looking at the titles, it made it appear that they were negative criticisms of Rondos shooting, but if you actually read them, you'd find that they are not criticisms at all. While Rondos shot is momentarily cast in a bad light, the overall articles are all praises.  They either say that his shot IS developing, or they say that his shot isn't perfect, but he's sooo good at everything else, that it doesn't matter lol.  

Beyond that, none appear to be written by (or include much if any discussion from) NBA coaches, GMs, players, or people "associated with the NBA".  They are all in BballTims words, the "peanut gallery".

[BballTim]

How often have you heard ANYONE associated with ANY NBA team say that ANY player hasn't improved?  It rarely ever happens. That doesn't mean every player in the league is getting better. It just means that people recognize that they have nothing to gain by calling players out with negative comments like that. If a reporter asks "what do you think of Rajon Rondos play", do you really expect a player/coach/GM/etc to say "I don't think he's any better than he was 2 years ago"? That's just not realistic.  It doesn't mean they don't feel that way. It just doesn't make sense to say it publicly.

If I was a player competing against Rondo, I'd tell the media, that he's "the best in the game today, and has become a real leader for the celts"....Then when the game started, I'd give him 10ft to shoot like a bum, and be in his ear the whole game about how much he sucks. Then after the game, I'd go right back to praising him. That's how the game is played.

  Ok. Whatever. There's no way to "prove" Rondo's improved. Just like there's no real way to "prove" that Rose has improved. The real answer is that it's extremely obvious to most people. If you don't see it, you don't see it. Agree to disagree.

Well...the foundation of the main discussion (and title from the OP) is about SHOOTING.  I'm not usually a statistics person, but I don't recall ever seeing any numbers related to SHOOTING, that show Rondo improving.  I am however familiar with The substantial improvements Rose has made in that regard.  If someone could make a solid statistical argument for Rondos shooting getting notably better, then I would have to "agree to disagree" as you suggest (as I would then be believing something that I could not prove).

  The OP might be talking about SHOOTING but the post that I RESPONDED TO was talking about OTHER THINGS AS WELL.

The post that you made the awards reference response to, specifically mentioned "shooting percentage, points, and free throw percentage".  Other things were included as well, but it appears to be predominantly focused on shooting.

  So in other words my statement was correct.

And ejk3489....did you read the articles you referenced?  Maybe looking at the titles, it made it appear that they were negative criticisms of Rondos shooting, but if you actually read them, you'd find that they are not criticisms at all. While Rondos shot is momentarily cast in a bad light, the overall articles are all praises.  They either say that his shot IS developing, or they say that his shot isn't perfect, but he's sooo good at everything else, that it doesn't matter lol.  

  To summarize, you claim that there are no articles criticizing Rondo's shooting, someone quickly gives you a list of such articles, you ask him if he read any of the articles because they appear to criticize Rondo's shooting but aren't criticisms at all, you then admit that some of them criticize his shot "momentarily".

  Oh, and he *is* good at everything else.

Beyond that, none appear to be written by (or include much if any discussion from) NBA coaches, GMs, players, or people "associated with the NBA".  They are all in BballTims words, the "peanut gallery".

  I checked two of the articles to see (after reading your post) if they were indeed about Rondo's shooting. One of the two I looked at quoted Doc Rivers.

[ejk3489]

How often have you heard ANYONE associated with ANY NBA team say that ANY player hasn't improved?  It rarely ever happens. That doesn't mean every player in the league is getting better. It just means that people recognize that they have nothing to gain by calling players out with negative comments like that. If a reporter asks "what do you think of Rajon Rondos play", do you really expect a player/coach/GM/etc to say "I don't think he's any better than he was 2 years ago"? That's just not realistic.  It doesn't mean they don't feel that way. It just doesn't make sense to say it publicly.

If I was a player competing against Rondo, I'd tell the media, that he's "the best in the game today, and has become a real leader for the celts"....Then when the game started, I'd give him 10ft to shoot like a bum, and be in his ear the whole game about how much he sucks. Then after the game, I'd go right back to praising him. That's how the game is played.

  Ok. Whatever. There's no way to "prove" Rondo's improved. Just like there's no real way to "prove" that Rose has improved. The real answer is that it's extremely obvious to most people. If you don't see it, you don't see it. Agree to disagree.

Well...the foundation of the main discussion (and title from the OP) is about SHOOTING.  I'm not usually a statistics person, but I don't recall ever seeing any numbers related to SHOOTING, that show Rondo improving.  I am however familiar with The substantial improvements Rose has made in that regard.  If someone could make a solid statistical argument for Rondos shooting getting notably better, then I would have to "agree to disagree" as you suggest (as I would then be believing something that I could not prove).

  The OP might be talking about SHOOTING but the post that I RESPONDED TO was talking about OTHER THINGS AS WELL.

The post that you made the awards reference response to, specifically mentioned "shooting percentage, points, and free throw percentage".  Other things were included as well, but it appears to be predominantly focused on shooting.

And ejk3489....did you read the articles you referenced?  Maybe looking at the titles, it made it appear that they were negative criticisms of Rondos shooting, but if you actually read them, you'd find that they are not criticisms at all. While Rondos shot is momentarily cast in a bad light, the overall articles are all praises.  They either say that his shot IS developing, or they say that his shot isn't perfect, but he's sooo good at everything else, that it doesn't matter lol.  

Beyond that, none appear to be written by (or include much if any discussion from) NBA coaches, GMs, players, or people "associated with the NBA".  They are all in BballTims words, the "peanut gallery".

Yes, I did read them, did you? You asked for articles critiquing Rondo's shooting, and I gave them to you. And why would they say anything else bad about his game when that is the one glaring weakness? 

I mean what did you expect the authors to write? That Rondo sucks and he will never be a good jump shooter?

[Celtics18]

According to Hoops Data website:

Shooting percentages from 16-23 ft:

Rondo: 38%

Rose: 38%

Westbrook: 36%

[PseudoElite]

According to Hoops Data website:

Shooting percentages from 16-23 ft:

Rondo: 38%

Rose: 38%

Westbrook: 36%

Interesting.

But I'm pretty certain there's a pretty big disparity between those %'s and the number of shots taken. Rondo takes very few shots typically, whereas both Rose and Westbrook are their team's main offensive weapons.

Rondo needs to work all summer on his shooting, like non-stop, something, if he wants to remain competitive. D.William, Rose, and potentially CP3 are in the East now.

[KG Living Legend]

 No. I thing my jumpshoot is a lot closer to Rose's than my Bank Account.  

[rtifishul]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201012030BOS.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201011050BOS.html

Yes, we lost to them in January, but it was our fifth game in seven days. Get real.

Rondo gambles, but he is a hell of a defender in this point-hungry NBA.

[jdz101]

oh, of course. and i'll take Dwight or LBJ too (as much as i hate to admit it) if i were starting a franchise. But CP3, Nash, etc. came into the league able to shoot. Rose came into the league as a PG who can't shoot. It just astounds me the progress that he's made. He even has a semblance of a 3pt game in his arsenal.

You wouldnt take a Lebron to start a franchise. He'll leave that franchise for dead at exactly the wrong time after his contracts up.