The keys to beating the Bulls in the Eastern Conference Finals...

[chambers]

some keys to our victory (in on way to work haste, no order)

shaq - they have no one who can guard him on the low post

our bench gang!

last night kirk heinrich denied rose the ball and chicago looked absolutely horrible, note to doc this is something to look at, that team relies so much on rose that if he isn't creating they don't know what to do

keep noah off the boards, guy adds so much energy, use all our bigs to beat theirs down

make rose work for everything, have rondo play at 100%, give him a rest bring in dwest have him play 100%, bring in arroyo, over the course of a series no matter how young and in shape rose is he cannot support that team and play defense against 3 pgs.

Were we watching the same game?
He was 6 of 8 from the three and 11-20 from the field.
He also had 10 assists.
Total destruction.

[2short]

some keys to our victory (in on way to work haste, no order)

shaq - they have no one who can guard him on the low post

our bench gang!

last night kirk heinrich denied rose the ball and chicago looked absolutely horrible, note to doc this is something to look at, that team relies so much on rose that if he isn't creating they don't know what to do

keep noah off the boards, guy adds so much energy, use all our bigs to beat theirs down

make rose work for everything, have rondo play at 100%, give him a rest bring in dwest have him play 100%, bring in arroyo, over the course of a series no matter how young and in shape rose is he cannot support that team and play defense against 3 pgs.

Were we watching the same game?
He was 6 of 8 from the three and 11-20 from the field.
He also had 10 assists.
Total destruction.

I was watching it, only happened once (that I saw) but worked great and heinrick doesn't have anywhere near the speed of delonte or rondo.  Full court deny rose the ball make someone else on bulls become the handler.

[OsirusCeltics]

Just walk in the building

[wdleehi]

1)  KG's defense on Boozer.  If he can neutralize Boozer, the Bulls become a one offensive star system.

2)  The other big man help defense on Rose.  They need to be prepared to step out and challenge him.

3)  Team needs to play complete defense.  That means defensive rebounding.  

[MrMorrill]

Seems to me we need Rondo to do exactly what he did with the Heat the last time we played them. Be super aggressive and attack anyone who is bringing the ball up the court. The bulls are very similar to the Celtics meaning they go if Rose goes. Like mentioned before they really don't have that Ben Gordon guy anymore so it comes down to stopping rose before he can get set.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Key is for Rondo to be aggressive against Rose. That's the bottom line.

On defense, big man help won't be of much use of Rondo let's Rose go by him like he did a couple of years ago constantly. Particularly with Noah and Boozer around. But we don't want Rondo in foul trouble either. We have West and Arroyo that should lessen the risk of Rondo getting in foul trouble, so I really want Rondo putting great energy and pressure whenever he's on the floor and forget about getting in foul trouble.

Fact is, if Rondo is aggressive, he would be much harder to guard for Rose than it would be Rondo to guard Rose in reversed roles.

[BballTim]

Key is for Rondo to be aggressive against Rose. That's the bottom line.

On defense, big man help won't be of much use of Rondo let's Rose go by him like he did a couple of years ago constantly. Particularly with Noah and Boozer around. But we don't want Rondo in foul trouble either. We have West and Arroyo that should lessen the risk of Rondo getting in foul trouble, so I really want Rondo putting great energy and pressure whenever he's on the floor and forget about getting in foul trouble.

Fact is, if Rondo is aggressive, he would be much harder to guard for Rose than it would be Rondo to guard Rose in reversed roles.

  Rondo might have had 1-2 games where Rose got by him "constantly" a couple of years ago out of the 11 games they played against each other that season.

[Chris]

Well, first off let me just get on the record that I don't think its a given that the Bulls will make it to the Eastern Conference finals.  Even if they get the top seed, I think they have a similar matchup problem with the Magic that the Cavs had 2 years ago.  Despite being the better team, I think they would have a really tough time getting past the Magic, due to their lack of guys who can really body up Howard one on one.  Noah is a very good defensive player, but he just does not have the lower body strength to keep Howard from getting to his spot in the lane...and when he is allowed to get there, it's over. 

But anyways, if the C's were to meet the Bulls, I think the C's would be able to use a similar system to what they have used on Lebron and Wade in the past to frustrate Derek Rose.  Shadow him with a big man, taking away penetration, daring him to make crosscourt passes, and get up underneath him with his man (who can do that because he has help from the big men), so that if he takes jumpers, he is not able to step in to the shot.

Their only other real threats offensively are Boozer and Deng, but with Deng they really just have to be running him off the shots, because he is not great off the dribble, and with Boozer, they just have to be strong with their rotations on the back side, and make sure they keep him off the boards.

As far as the offense goes, Shaq would be huge in this series, because, much like Howard, he is just a terrible matchup for Noah.  If he can get their bigs in foul trouble early, then things could really open up.  Beyond that, the defense that Thibs runs (which is the same the C's run), which is great at stopping individual players, is most vulnerable to teams with good ball movement, and lots of balance offensively.  If they are crisp with their ball movement, and set good picks, they should be able to beat the defense to get open shots.  They also should be able to be effective by hitting the offensive boards, since the defensive scheme can be susceptible to losing guys on the boards, due to how much the bigs are helping on the perimeter.  If they move the ball, and force the Bulls to move, then guys like Davis, Krstic, and even Rondo (particularly if they decide to lay off him) could do a lot of damage on those boards.

[Fafnir]

Key is for Rondo to be aggressive against Rose. That's the bottom line.

On defense, big man help won't be of much use of Rondo let's Rose go by him like he did a couple of years ago constantly. Particularly with Noah and Boozer around. But we don't want Rondo in foul trouble either. We have West and Arroyo that should lessen the risk of Rondo getting in foul trouble, so I really want Rondo putting great energy and pressure whenever he's on the floor and forget about getting in foul trouble.

Fact is, if Rondo is aggressive, he would be much harder to guard for Rose than it would be Rondo to guard Rose in reversed roles.

  Rondo might have had 1-2 games where Rose got by him "constantly" a couple of years ago out of the 11 games they played against each other that season.

Rose is too quick/strong to contain in the P&R without excellent big man help.

[Donoghus]

Bulls offense is still very susceptible to droughts on offense.  Clog the lane and force things to remain outside.  If you can minimize Rose's pentration into the lane, then you'r in great shape.   Much like the Celtics at times, when this Bulls team settles for jumpers they are pretty inefficient.

Do that and limit Bulls 2nd chance scoring opportunities (i.e. contain Noah) and you're in excellent shape.

[Fafnir]

Bulls offense is still very susceptible to droughts on offense.  Clog the lane and force things to remain outside.  If you can minimize Rose's pentration into the lane, then you'r in great shape.   Much like the Celtics at times, when this Bulls team settles for jumpers they are pretty inefficient.

Do that and limit Bulls 2nd chance scoring opportunities (i.e. contain Noah) and you're in excellent shape.

Other than Rose killing us via penetration the Bulls will need a ton of offensive boards to beat the C's.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Key is for Rondo to be aggressive against Rose. That's the bottom line.

On defense, big man help won't be of much use of Rondo let's Rose go by him like he did a couple of years ago constantly. Particularly with Noah and Boozer around. But we don't want Rondo in foul trouble either. We have West and Arroyo that should lessen the risk of Rondo getting in foul trouble, so I really want Rondo putting great energy and pressure whenever he's on the floor and forget about getting in foul trouble.

Fact is, if Rondo is aggressive, he would be much harder to guard for Rose than it would be Rondo to guard Rose in reversed roles.

  Rondo might have had 1-2 games where Rose got by him "constantly" a couple of years ago out of the 11 games they played against each other that season.

Rose is too quick/strong to contain in the P&R without excellent big man help.

He was doing it without P&R, just blowing by him because Rondo wasn't moving his feet and going for the poke from behind. Got a couple of plays etched in my mind in which Rondo was staying with Rose very well like he should, then inexplicably plants his feet and let Rose go by him just so he could poke him from behind.

Remember, Rose was a rookie back then and quite inconsistent for that matter. Didn't have a jumper, though it fell for him in a few games in that series against us.

He's a much improved offensive player in all areas of his game. If Rondo defends him like he did in that series, we'd be in big trouble.

So yes, Rondo needs to step it up against him defensively.

[dtrader]

I don't know how many bulls games you guys are watching, but saying that the bulls are dependent on rose's penetrating, sells them a bit short.  When they have korver, rose, and deng in the game, they can be lethal from distance (especially since the athleticism of those two demands they be given some amount of space).

 Then when they have brewer in the SG spot, they become a dangerous uptempo team, and would have a size and/or athleticism advantage over us at every spot besides PF.

 People always point to their SG slot as a weak link, but really they play it by committee, and use it to change the look depending on their matchups (bogans for d, korver to stretch, brewer to run). 

If shaq can come back near his pre-injury form, I'll be confident that our size (and the fouls he draws) will create enough of an advantage for us, but otherwise, I think the bulls could be a lot tougher than some would give them credit for 

[Chris]

Key is for Rondo to be aggressive against Rose. That's the bottom line.

On defense, big man help won't be of much use of Rondo let's Rose go by him like he did a couple of years ago constantly. Particularly with Noah and Boozer around. But we don't want Rondo in foul trouble either. We have West and Arroyo that should lessen the risk of Rondo getting in foul trouble, so I really want Rondo putting great energy and pressure whenever he's on the floor and forget about getting in foul trouble.

Fact is, if Rondo is aggressive, he would be much harder to guard for Rose than it would be Rondo to guard Rose in reversed roles.

  Rondo might have had 1-2 games where Rose got by him "constantly" a couple of years ago out of the 11 games they played against each other that season.

Rose is too quick/strong to contain in the P&R without excellent big man help.

Yeah, and I think the key with a guy like that (much like with Lebron or Wade) is not to be too aggressive on the help.  While Rose can hit the outside shot, he is much more dangerous taking it to the hole.  And since he is also not a natural shooter like a Ray Allen or someone like that, you don't need to really get up in his face to challenge the shot as much as you just need to get him shooting those shots off balance.  

So, to slow a guy like that down on the pick and roll, you have the big man pick him up, but stay off him a couple steps, and stay square to him (rather than coming up hard, and trying to force him to retreat a bit to give his man time to catch up), with his man fighting over the pick to crowd him from the side, so he can't really step into the shot, and he also can't split the defense, because the big man will be spread out in front of him (and there would be a third man rotating to help on the pick setter, who would also serve as a third layer of defense in case he was able to split the defense).  

To pull this off, rotations on the backside also need to be perfect, because someone is going to be left open, and you need to make sure it is the person he does not have a passing lane to.  

There are two things that are going to make this very interesting though.  First, Thibs knows as well as anyone exactly how the C's will defend it.  So, the question is, how will he counter?  

And second, will the C's bigs be able to execute?  This is where I think JO would be incredibly valuable.  Of all of their centers, he has by far the best feet, and would have no problem executing this, and also being able to get back to defend the rim.  Shaq would be OK I think.  Since this scheme doesn't require as much movement as their more traditional scheme of a harder blitz, he should be a little better, and his pure size will clog the lane on its own.  Krstic, I am worried about, however, I think if we do only have one Oneal, we would see a lot more Davis/KG than normal, as well as a lot of Green at PF in that series.  

[wdleehi]

I don't know how many bulls games you guys are watching, but saying that the bulls are dependent on rose's penetrating, sells them a bit short.  When they have korver, rose, and deng in the game, they can be lethal from distance (especially since the athleticism of those two demands they be given some amount of space).

 Then when they have brewer in the SG spot, they become a dangerous uptempo team, and would have a size and/or athleticism advantage over us at every spot besides PF.

 People always point to their SG slot as a weak link, but really they play it by committee, and use it to change the look depending on their matchups (bogans for d, korver to stretch, brewer to run). 

If shaq can come back near his pre-injury form, I'll be confident that our size (and the fouls he draws) will create enough of an advantage for us, but otherwise, I think the bulls could be a lot tougher than some would give them credit for 

Experience.


The Cavs with Lebron would say similar things.


The Heat with just Wade would say similar things.


But when they would run into the Celtics defense, the Celtics defense would stop the penetration, and the other "shooters" and "slashers" would be effected. 



The main difference is Boozer.  He is an offensive threat (low post) that those other teams did not have.