Author Topic: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me  (Read 21177 times)

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Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2011, 07:17:55 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Neither am I. We still have the anchor of our defense inside in Garnett, and he keynoted the second half run by locking Amare down.

The transition isn't over, and we'll be fine come playoff time.
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Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2011, 10:39:08 PM »

Offline yagru

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what is the last important game JO has had an impact on .. for any team? the guy is DONE what are you guys smoking

Yes curly and perk were about the same speed but curly is always late or out of position and has zero muscle and shot blocking ability.. perk single handily held the strongest player in the league in check.. you cant even compare the 2

we all know perk is limited offensively but last year when he was healthy he was leading the league in field goal percentage.. which is nothing to scoff at
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 10:45:39 PM by yagru »

Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2011, 08:21:00 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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The defense has played well in stretches, but Krstic is a major liability in the middle.  He's been terrible -- I mean, legitimately horrendous -- at rotating / switching and cutting off penetration.  He looks lost regarding when to help, etc., and he's too slow to recover or to slide over to pick up opponents driving to the hoop.
If Shaq comes back, that hopefully won't be a huge issue.  Shaq has some of the same issues (but to a lesser extent), but he's a big, imposing figure in the lane who makes opponents pay with hard fouls.  Krstic just plays soft.

However, if Shaq can't come back, here's why Krstic's play is important:  our defense is built around our big men, from the inside out.  The tough play of KG + Perk or Shaq has allowed our perimeter defenders to play tighter defense on the outside, without having to worry as much that their defensive assignment will blow by them.  The team has been successful at sealing off penetration, in other words, which further allows Rondo to gamble more, etc.  If one of our bigs -- i.e., Krstic, but really any of them -- starts playing matador defense, that not only allows the opposing center to go off (like Ronny Turiaf), but also leads to the other team running layup drills against us (like Carmelo did several times).

So, let's get Shaq back in there, and if JO can contribute as well, fantastic.  Without either (or both) of them, I worry that we're in trouble.

Now I haven't noticed this at all. I actually went to the game last Sunday against Milwaukee and I watched Krstic specifically. He made the correct rotation every single time he was supposed to make it and on time. He was not late with help. He hedged perfectly on the pick n roll in that game and got back to his man quickly. He's not Perk but I just haven't seen what's being described above.

Even in the Clippers game that everyone likes to throw at Krstic's doormat, Krstic made all the proper rotations to help in that game. The reason why his man scored 21 was because Randy Foye treated Rondo and more specifically Ray Allen like a turnstile and Krstic had to step up and make the correct rotation to cut off the penetration leaving his man open. I'd say the real issue with this team lately has NOT been in the middle but the inordinate amount of penetration by guards that our starters have allowed. Watching Ray and Rondo play defense the last week plus has been an unmitigated disaster.


Will all due respect, I think your grasp of the Cs defense is superficial at best, and that doesn't put you in a very good position as a fan to determine whether Krstic is making the proper rotation or not.  The Cs defense is built on making the right read at the right time, selling out physically to make the rotation, and then having the knowledge to know EXACTLY where to rotate to.  I think Krstic struggles in all three areas.

I guy like Krstic--somebody with limited athleticism--needs to have a firm grasp on the defense in order to be a decent defender.  His understanding--right now--is lacking, and that makes his physical limitations that much more impossible to overcome.  There's a reason our defense is much much better with a 6'7" Glen Davis at center--he knows the defense and he makes the right rotation almost every time, and he does it ON TIME.

There was a play last night where Krstic was out of position by a half step (about 2 feet).  He was trying to position himself outside of the lane as a 2nd defender behind Anthony, but he overcommitted himself by that half step and it opened up a lane to make the pass to the man he was supposed to be guarding and forced Ray Allen to drop back and make the foul, leading to an And-1.  And even before the ball went through the hoop, Ray Allen was in Krstic's face showing him exactly where he needed to be to stop that pass AND still provide backside support for the potential dribble penetration.

Krstic has the potential to be a DECENT defender once he completely understands when and where he needs to be at all times.  He's not there yet and I don't think there's enough of the season to get him there. 

On the specific play you're referring to it was Turiaf with the and 1.  That particular play was a glaringly obvious example where it was hard to figure out what the heck Curly was doing.

The problem is that it's one play.  Yes, you'll be able to find others, and some plays will be more debatable as to who got burned and who got lost in the rotation and who didn't. 

I've watched Nenad pretty closely on the defensive end and have come to the conclusion (or at least formulatted the theory) that the guy is no less than a serviceable NBA defender.  I've seen many of the same things as Buckner's Revenge.  He moves his feet, rotates when he should, hedges on the pick and roll, and recovers.

Maybe I should be added to the list of folks who don't understand the Celtics D. 

I just think that these purely observational denunciations of a guys D can take on a life of their own.  Now it's established as a truth in many people's eyes, and it becomes easy to pick Krstic as the one who blew it when the D gets broken down.  He's an easy target for a number of reasons.  He's European which leads people to think of the "soft label", he doesn't have an overwhelming physique, he's not chiseled or a high jumper, and he's got that goofy doo with the receding hairline.  So, he looks soft, and to make matters worse for him, he's been the replacement for a player who most of us idolized for his toughness and defensive prowess. 

It's a set up, and then when this blog's pre-eminent posters start posting that he's just horrible on the defensive end, it gets picked up, and now it's "a fact."

 Our overall team defense has remained the best in the league since Krstic has joined the team. Curly's doing his job, in my opinion.

You could take a single game of any NBA player, and find specific examples to support an argument that he's a lousy defender. Everyone gets burned some time, but if your mind is made up that one guy is a lousy defender, you'll ignore his good defensive plays and magnify the bad ones.
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Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2011, 08:43:33 AM »

Offline Kuberski1

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I agree that Krstic is getting too much focus for the recent defensive woes.  He is serviceable...no better, but no worse.  There are plenty of mistakes being made on the perimeter - I'm not talking about guys driving to the basket, but getting good open looks on the perimeter; guys we don't want to give those to, such as Lowry behind the arc.  I think the real problem has been fatigue on the part of the Fab 4....the last 2 games, and the flipping of the proverbial switch in the 2nd halves seem to make that point.  

Getting used to the system takes time, and the bet is that 13 more games is enough.  Don't know if it will be.  But the system, and a general focus on defense, can make poor defenders mediocre, and the mediocre good to even very good.  The Bulls are playing the best defense in the league, and their interior core is made up of Noah, Boozer, Gibson, and Asik.  With the exception of perhaps Noah, not a group known for their defensive prowess prior to the arrival of Thibs, but look at them now.  
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 10:27:34 AM by Kuberski1 »

Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2011, 09:22:31 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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We lost because we shot poorly.  Go back and look at those box scores and we shot like 40% as a team on a few on these losses.  Smart fans will get it and not try to blame everything on the trade.

Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2011, 09:28:55 AM »

Online wdleehi

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We lost because we shot poorly.  Go back and look at those box scores and we shot like 40% as a team on a few on these losses.  Smart fans will get it and not try to blame everything on the trade.


So, am I a Smart fan or not because I see issues defensively with new guys being worked into the system?   (there are also some offensive issues as well, but those are not as glaring) 


Mind you I am not blaming that (the trade) as the sole reason for any Celtics loses recently.  Rondo was banged up, not playing up to his expected level.  Other guys were (and are) out with injuries. 


Just like I didn't put the blame on the three loses  that happened pre-trade after Perk came back on Perk.  During those games, others were playing  below level and some were playing hurt (or not playing)




For every low and every high, there is usually not just one reason.





So, does this make me a Smart fan or a non-Smart fan?   Has Hollinger come with a overly complicated formula to prove this yet? 

Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2011, 09:35:01 AM »

Online wdleehi

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Honestly, can't members of both sides of this argument discuss this with out trying to call out the other side's basketball intelligence?

Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2011, 10:00:01 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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We lost because we shot poorly.  Go back and look at those box scores and we shot like 40% as a team on a few on these losses. Smart fans will get it and not try to blame everything on the trade.

Watch it with stuff like the bolded part above.  From our rules:

Quote
Do not label fellow posters in a way that is likely to provoke a negative response.  Dependent upon context, examples include, but are not limited to, "fake fan", "bandwagon fan", "not a real fan", "hater", "homer", "koolaid drinker", etc.

Obviously, suggesting that some fans are "smart" and that others are not falls into that category.

EDIT:  Or, what wdleehi said.


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Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2011, 10:37:36 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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I agree that Krstic is getting too much focus for the recent defensive woes.  He is serviceable...no better, but no worse.  There are plenty of mistakes being made on the perimeter - I'm not talking about guys driving to the basket, but getting good open looks on the perimeter; guys we don't want to give those to, such as Lowry behind the arc.  I think the real problem has been fatigue on the part of the Fab 4....the last 2 games, and the flipping of the proverbial switch in the 2nd halves seem to make that point.  

Getting used to the system takes time, and the bet is that 13 more games is enough.  Don't know if it will be.  But the system, and a general focus on defense, can make poor defenders mediocre, and the mediocre good to even very good.  The Bulls are playing the best defense in the league, and their interior core is made up of Noah, Boozer, Gibson, and Asik.  With the exception of perhaps Noah, not a group known for their defensive prowess prior to the arrival of Thibs, but look at them now.  

I agree with this.
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2011, 11:06:36 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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For those arguing that Krstic is serviceable, who are some examples of current NBA centers who aren't serviceable on the defensive end?  I mean, it's possible to argue that *any* NBA center is in fact serviceable; nobody is a revolving door at the position.

If you had to put Krstic into a percentile in the NBA based upon his defense, what percentile would that be (and is that percentile among starters or all players)?

I'm just trying to see where people are coming from.  I put Krstic well below Perk, JO, and Shaq, below BBD, and slightly below Semih Erden among guys who have seen time at center on our team this year, and league wide, I'd say he's an average 1-on-1 defender, a well-below-average help / team defender, and a well-below-average defensive rebounder.


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Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2011, 11:24:18 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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For those arguing that Krstic is serviceable, who are some examples of current NBA centers who aren't serviceable on the defensive end?  I mean, it's possible to argue that *any* NBA center is in fact serviceable; nobody is a revolving door at the position.

If you had to put Krstic into a percentile in the NBA based upon his defense, what percentile would that be (and is that percentile among starters or all players)?

I'm just trying to see where people are coming from.  I put Krstic well below Perk, JO, and Shaq, below BBD, and slightly below Semih Erden among guys who have seen time at center on our team this year, and league wide, I'd say he's an average 1-on-1 defender, a well-below-average help / team defender, and a well-below-average defensive rebounder.

That's cool, because he'll be below those guys on the depth chart too.  It won't matter in the least if JO comes back, and I believe he will.
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2011, 11:24:29 AM »

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For those arguing that Krstic is serviceable, who are some examples of current NBA centers who aren't serviceable on the defensive end?  I mean, it's possible to argue that *any* NBA center is in fact serviceable; nobody is a revolving door at the position.

If you had to put Krstic into a percentile in the NBA based upon his defense, what percentile would that be (and is that percentile among starters or all players)?
Sounds like fun ... Amongst starters, I would rank Krstic in the bottom 10.

30th - Cousins
29th - Bargnani
28th - Big Al
27th - Hawes
26th - Biedrins
25th - Monroe
24th - Krstic
23rd - Kaman
22nd - McGee
21st - R.Lopez

Something along those lines ... not exact rankings, undecided on a couple of those guys, but something along those lines. It's in that ball park.

In terms of backup centers, well it depends on who you classify as a backup center (lot of teams just play two PFs off the bench), but I am thinking it's probably somewhere in the middle of the pack.

So out of 60 players (starters + main reserves) at the center position, at a first estimate, I would rank Krstic somewhere around 40th. Maybe slightly below or slightly above but somewhere around there.

Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2011, 11:46:31 AM »

Offline Chris

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For those arguing that Krstic is serviceable, who are some examples of current NBA centers who aren't serviceable on the defensive end?  I mean, it's possible to argue that *any* NBA center is in fact serviceable; nobody is a revolving door at the position.

If you had to put Krstic into a percentile in the NBA based upon his defense, what percentile would that be (and is that percentile among starters or all players)?
Sounds like fun ... Amongst starters, I would rank Krstic in the bottom 10.

30th - Cousins
29th - Bargnani
28th - Big Al
27th - Hawes
26th - Biedrins
25th - Monroe
24th - Krstic
23rd - Kaman
22nd - McGee
21st - R.Lopez

Something along those lines ... not exact rankings, undecided on a couple of those guys, but something along those lines. It's in that ball park.

In terms of backup centers, well it depends on who you classify as a backup center (lot of teams just play two PFs off the bench), but I am thinking it's probably somewhere in the middle of the pack.

So out of 60 players (starters + main reserves) at the center position, at a first estimate, I would rank Krstic somewhere around 40th. Maybe slightly below or slightly above but somewhere around there.

That seems about right.  But if he is your third center (which I hope ends up being the case), he is a great luxury.

And even as the second center, he would still be a bit of a luxury, particularly since the second center may only play a few minutes per game, with Davis playing a lot of minutes at center.

Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2011, 12:09:50 PM »

Offline Tai

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For those arguing that Krstic is serviceable, who are some examples of current NBA centers who aren't serviceable on the defensive end?  I mean, it's possible to argue that *any* NBA center is in fact serviceable; nobody is a revolving door at the position.

If you had to put Krstic into a percentile in the NBA based upon his defense, what percentile would that be (and is that percentile among starters or all players)?

I'm just trying to see where people are coming from.  I put Krstic well below Perk, JO, and Shaq, below BBD, and slightly below Semih Erden among guys who have seen time at center on our team this year, and league wide, I'd say he's an average 1-on-1 defender, a well-below-average help / team defender, and a well-below-average defensive rebounder.

He's been much better than Erden. I especially like the way Krstic hedges.

I agree with Krstic's rebounding being an overall net negative, but when you start putting him below Erden in everything else, especially for a guy that didn't even have training camp with the C's like Erden had, you're definitely coming off as someone to me that's overstating Krstic's weaknesses. Same for Bankshot and whoever else wanting to virtually bench Krstic for the playoffs.

Re: Celtics Defense Looks Fine to Me
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2011, 01:12:35 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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It's a set up, and then when this blog's pre-eminent posters start posting that he's just horrible on the defensive end, it gets picked up, and now it's "a fact."

 Our overall team defense has remained the best in the league since Krstic has joined the team. Curly's doing his job, in my opinion.

You could take a single game of any NBA player, and find specific examples to support an argument that he's a lousy defender. Everyone gets burned some time, but if your mind is made up that one guy is a lousy defender, you'll ignore his good defensive plays and magnify the bad ones.
Agreed, and TP.  I think that there is perhaps some selection bias going on, here, be it intentional or otherwise.


I'd like to take the opportunity to point out something related to this issue of defense, since it was brought up:  defensive rebounding.  I hate weasel wording, but it's not permitted to "call people out" specifically... so therefore, I'll say that I think that much ado has been made about Krstic's (lack of) rebounding on the defensive end, but the numbers thus far don't agree.

I think most would agree that team rebounding is what matters in the end.  Celts are #7 in the league this season in terms of grabbing defensive rebounds -- at 75.27% -- basically getting three of every four that goes up.  This is pretty good.  In the last 13 games that Krstic has played with the team, his poor performance on the defensive boards has dropped the Celtics to a 77.5% defensive rebounding rate, a figure so horrible that if we expanded it to the entire season it would put them at #1 in the league, ahead of the Magic.  Sorry, Dwight.

There's one stinker of a game in there, against the Warriors (team did not even manage to grab three of every five), but every other game is either reasonably close to or well above their season average.  And if we canned the GSW game, the C's are at a toasty 79% DRR.  Krstic was averaging more than half of every game on the floor, too, so it's not as if he didn't have plenty of opportunity to tank this team's numbers, no?