Rondo won this game.....

[Celtics18]

How about this one; the Celtics won the game last night.  Everyone made contributions, even Nenad and Paul who stunk statistically.

[BballTim]

I didn't say that Rondo was the reason that the Celts won, but I'd guess if you're saying that 6 players were better than Rondo you're counting guys that were poor for stretches and had a few good plays at key stretches.

Guys better than Rondo last night:

* BBD
* Ray
* Delonte
* Green
* KG

Then comes Rondo, followed by Krstic and Pierce.

  Not so sure about Ray. Did nothing on offense in the first half while making Bellini look like a star on the other end, then woke up in the 3rd quarter. Might have been "more responsible for the win", but probably didn't play a better overall game.

Ehhh, I don't know.

Ray:  20 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 steals, +12
Rondo:  9 points, 1 rebound, 5 assists, 1 steal, -12

True, he might have let a white guy drop 14 in the first quarter (the same as our whole team) but then he had a clutch strip on him in the 4th that pretty much sealed the game.

... and several big baskets (especially in the third quarter) to get us back into the game.

  Yes, those big baskets helped us get back into the game, that's why I said more responsible for the win. Over the course of the game, though, not as impressive.

[Vermont Green]

from espn article about Rondo:


One game isn't enough for the point guard to declare himself whole again. The slump has been taxing. He hasn't felt himself for a while.

"It's a mix and match of things," Rondo said slowly. "I haven't been playing well. Aches and pains. And we had the trade with Perk [Kendrick Perkins].
 
"He's a guy I spent a lot of time with. I'm not saying that's why I'm playing bad. You just appreciate somebody more when they're gone.

"We were best friends. We're talking more now than we did when he was here. It's been tough. I know other guys have been through it, but I haven't.

"We went through everything together, right from the beginning. I missed the USA basketball camp so I could be at his wedding.

"When we were on the road, there was never any question we'd be hanging out together. It was 'What are we going to do tonight?' or 'Let's go here and there.' So now it's a little different.


no, the team hasn't been affected by the Perk trade at all - water off a duck's back.

I didn't see the whole game so I can't comment but I saw the last half of the 4th QTR.  I thought it was interesting that Tommy was praising the play of West so much.  He said things like "West really ran the team well".  He also commented on what it might do to Rondo if Doc benched him for crunch time in favor of West.  I felt that Tommy thought it might be a good idea for purely basketball reasons but that he wouldn't do it because it would mess with Rondo's head so much.

Based on the quotes above, it seems that Rondo may be being affected by the trade.  It seems as though a pro should be able to play through this but there has clearly been a drop off.  Rondo still had issues even before the trade but he clearly has been worse since.

So now with West back, do you bench Rondo until he gets his head back in the game and risk really messing him up or simply continue to kind of coddle (I don't mean that in a negative way) him and hope he plays through it?

[BballTim]

We were -12 with Rondo in the game. He wasn't the difference maker.

first post on the forums and while delonte was the sparkplug last night.. simply using a +/- stat for rondo isnt truly fair imo for the pure fact if his guys arent hitting shots theres a good chance hes goin to be a -

This is the beauty of the "pro" rondo arguments. When PP, KG and Ray hit their shots and rondo has gaudy assist totals it is b/c he knows how to make all the right passes - all hail rondo, the straw that stirs the drink.

Yet when people are missing, it isnt on him.

Kid is a great passer but you can't have it both ways

  So giving him credit for getting players the ball in good position to score and not blaming him if they miss open shots is having it both ways?

[mgent]

I didn't say that Rondo was the reason that the Celts won, but I'd guess if you're saying that 6 players were better than Rondo you're counting guys that were poor for stretches and had a few good plays at key stretches.

Guys better than Rondo last night:

* BBD
* Ray
* Delonte
* Green
* KG

Then comes Rondo, followed by Krstic and Pierce.

  Not so sure about Ray. Did nothing on offense in the first half while making Bellini look like a star on the other end, then woke up in the 3rd quarter. Might have been "more responsible for the win", but probably didn't play a better overall game.

Ehhh, I don't know.

Ray:  20 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 steals, +12
Rondo:  9 points, 1 rebound, 5 assists, 1 steal, -12

True, he might have let a white guy drop 14 in the first quarter (the same as our whole team) but then he had a clutch strip on him in the 4th that pretty much sealed the game.

... and several big baskets (especially in the third quarter) to get us back into the game.

  Yes, those big baskets helped us get back into the game, that's why I said more responsible for the win. Over the course of the game, though, not as impressive.

Well isn't "more responsible for the win" pretty good criteria for a better overall game?  In what way was Rondo's play more impressive over the course of the game?  He had a pretty below average game, and posted below average stats too.

Ray on the other hand had a good game.  Add that to the fact that he came up big when it mattered and he gets my vote.  Sure, Rondo played better defense but what else?  I guess I don't understand how Rondo's overall play outweighs Ray's much more clutch performance because he played poor for stretches.

[BballTim]

I didn't say that Rondo was the reason that the Celts won, but I'd guess if you're saying that 6 players were better than Rondo you're counting guys that were poor for stretches and had a few good plays at key stretches.

Guys better than Rondo last night:

* BBD
* Ray
* Delonte
* Green
* KG

Then comes Rondo, followed by Krstic and Pierce.

  Not so sure about Ray. Did nothing on offense in the first half while making Bellini look like a star on the other end, then woke up in the 3rd quarter. Might have been "more responsible for the win", but probably didn't play a better overall game.

Ehhh, I don't know.

Ray:  20 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 steals, +12
Rondo:  9 points, 1 rebound, 5 assists, 1 steal, -12

True, he might have let a white guy drop 14 in the first quarter (the same as our whole team) but then he had a clutch strip on him in the 4th that pretty much sealed the game.

... and several big baskets (especially in the third quarter) to get us back into the game.

  Yes, those big baskets helped us get back into the game, that's why I said more responsible for the win. Over the course of the game, though, not as impressive.

Well isn't "more responsible for the win" pretty good criteria for a better overall game?  In what way was Rondo's play more impressive over the course of the game?  He had a pretty below average game, and posted below average stats too.

Ray on the other hand had a good game.  Add that to the fact that he came up big when it mattered and he gets my vote.  Sure, Rondo played better defense but what else?  I guess I don't understand how Rondo's overall play outweighs Ray's much more clutch performance because he played poor for stretches.

  Ray had a really bad first quarter, bad first half overall and good second half. I don't think that qualifies as a good game, at least not by Ray's general standards.

[mgent]

I didn't say that Rondo was the reason that the Celts won, but I'd guess if you're saying that 6 players were better than Rondo you're counting guys that were poor for stretches and had a few good plays at key stretches.

Guys better than Rondo last night:

* BBD
* Ray
* Delonte
* Green
* KG

Then comes Rondo, followed by Krstic and Pierce.

  Not so sure about Ray. Did nothing on offense in the first half while making Bellini look like a star on the other end, then woke up in the 3rd quarter. Might have been "more responsible for the win", but probably didn't play a better overall game.

Ehhh, I don't know.

Ray:  20 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 steals, +12
Rondo:  9 points, 1 rebound, 5 assists, 1 steal, -12

True, he might have let a white guy drop 14 in the first quarter (the same as our whole team) but then he had a clutch strip on him in the 4th that pretty much sealed the game.

... and several big baskets (especially in the third quarter) to get us back into the game.

  Yes, those big baskets helped us get back into the game, that's why I said more responsible for the win. Over the course of the game, though, not as impressive.

Well isn't "more responsible for the win" pretty good criteria for a better overall game?  In what way was Rondo's play more impressive over the course of the game?  He had a pretty below average game, and posted below average stats too.

Ray on the other hand had a good game.  Add that to the fact that he came up big when it mattered and he gets my vote.  Sure, Rondo played better defense but what else?  I guess I don't understand how Rondo's overall play outweighs Ray's much more clutch performance because he played poor for stretches.

  Ray had a really bad first quarter, bad first half overall and good second half. I don't think that qualifies as a good game, at least not by Ray's general standards.

Ray is a shooter.  It's a streaky job and Ray's become more streaky with age.  Any game where he's hitting shots and shooting above 50% that's a good game.  It wasn't an excellent game by Ray's general standards where he hit 5 threes and dropped 30 but I'm sure he's more than satisfied that he shot the team back in the game.  It's not even like he had a good first half, a bad second half overall, and a really bad 4th quarter.

Rondo on the other hand, what did he do that qualifies as a good (better) game, by your standards or his?

[BballTim]

I didn't say that Rondo was the reason that the Celts won, but I'd guess if you're saying that 6 players were better than Rondo you're counting guys that were poor for stretches and had a few good plays at key stretches.

Guys better than Rondo last night:

* BBD
* Ray
* Delonte
* Green
* KG

Then comes Rondo, followed by Krstic and Pierce.

  Not so sure about Ray. Did nothing on offense in the first half while making Bellini look like a star on the other end, then woke up in the 3rd quarter. Might have been "more responsible for the win", but probably didn't play a better overall game.

Ehhh, I don't know.

Ray:  20 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 steals, +12
Rondo:  9 points, 1 rebound, 5 assists, 1 steal, -12

True, he might have let a white guy drop 14 in the first quarter (the same as our whole team) but then he had a clutch strip on him in the 4th that pretty much sealed the game.

... and several big baskets (especially in the third quarter) to get us back into the game.

  Yes, those big baskets helped us get back into the game, that's why I said more responsible for the win. Over the course of the game, though, not as impressive.

Well isn't "more responsible for the win" pretty good criteria for a better overall game?  In what way was Rondo's play more impressive over the course of the game?  He had a pretty below average game, and posted below average stats too.

Ray on the other hand had a good game.  Add that to the fact that he came up big when it mattered and he gets my vote.  Sure, Rondo played better defense but what else?  I guess I don't understand how Rondo's overall play outweighs Ray's much more clutch performance because he played poor for stretches.

  Ray had a really bad first quarter, bad first half overall and good second half. I don't think that qualifies as a good game, at least not by Ray's general standards.

Ray is a shooter.  It's a streaky job and Ray's become more streaky with age.  Any game where he's hitting shots and shooting above 50% that's a good game.  It wasn't an excellent game by Ray's general standards where he hit 5 threes and dropped 30 but I'm sure he's more than satisfied that he shot the team back in the game.  It's not even like he had a good first half, a bad second half overall, and a really bad 4th quarter.

Rondo on the other hand, what did he do that qualifies as a good (better) game, by your standards or his?

  Since your analysis seems to begin and end with Ray's shooting this discussion is probably pointless. One thing Rondo did was not be a complete no-show on offense in the first half. Another was not let his opponent have his best scoring day since 2008 or so (from quickly glancing through game logs).

[mgent]

I didn't say that Rondo was the reason that the Celts won, but I'd guess if you're saying that 6 players were better than Rondo you're counting guys that were poor for stretches and had a few good plays at key stretches.

Guys better than Rondo last night:

* BBD
* Ray
* Delonte
* Green
* KG

Then comes Rondo, followed by Krstic and Pierce.

  Not so sure about Ray. Did nothing on offense in the first half while making Bellini look like a star on the other end, then woke up in the 3rd quarter. Might have been "more responsible for the win", but probably didn't play a better overall game.

Ehhh, I don't know.

Ray:  20 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 steals, +12
Rondo:  9 points, 1 rebound, 5 assists, 1 steal, -12

True, he might have let a white guy drop 14 in the first quarter (the same as our whole team) but then he had a clutch strip on him in the 4th that pretty much sealed the game.

... and several big baskets (especially in the third quarter) to get us back into the game.

  Yes, those big baskets helped us get back into the game, that's why I said more responsible for the win. Over the course of the game, though, not as impressive.

Well isn't "more responsible for the win" pretty good criteria for a better overall game?  In what way was Rondo's play more impressive over the course of the game?  He had a pretty below average game, and posted below average stats too.

Ray on the other hand had a good game.  Add that to the fact that he came up big when it mattered and he gets my vote.  Sure, Rondo played better defense but what else?  I guess I don't understand how Rondo's overall play outweighs Ray's much more clutch performance because he played poor for stretches.

  Ray had a really bad first quarter, bad first half overall and good second half. I don't think that qualifies as a good game, at least not by Ray's general standards.

Ray is a shooter.  It's a streaky job and Ray's become more streaky with age.  Any game where he's hitting shots and shooting above 50% that's a good game.  It wasn't an excellent game by Ray's general standards where he hit 5 threes and dropped 30 but I'm sure he's more than satisfied that he shot the team back in the game.  It's not even like he had a good first half, a bad second half overall, and a really bad 4th quarter.

Rondo on the other hand, what did he do that qualifies as a good (better) game, by your standards or his?

  Since your analysis seems to begin and end with Ray's shooting this discussion is probably pointless. One thing Rondo did was not be a complete no-show on offense in the first half. Another was not let his opponent have his best scoring day since 2008 or so (from quickly glancing through game logs).

It doesn't.  I just don't think not being a complete no-show on offense in the first half is better than showing up in the second and basically saving the game.  And I don't think if you look at the game as a whole Rondo's play is any better.

[barefacedmonk]

Rondo had a very good game considering his performances in the last 3-4 games...that said Delonte and BBD should get the credit for last night's win...and Ray Allen gets the honourable nod.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

I'm sorry, I just don't see how people can argue against DWest and BBD being the biggest reason we won with Ray coming in a strong 3rd. DWest came in an started to get the offense going and he was good on D... BBD was hitting shots out of his mind (when they went up I was like "NOOOOO" lol)... Ray hit clutch shots. Again, if you look at the game again, we were down with RR in the game, when he went down and DWest came in we battled back and took the lead... there was a NEW energy with Baby and him in. Even when BBD first came in with RR playing we were getting beat. When RR came back in at the end we lost the lead (go watch the game again) at first... we held on for the win but you could clearly see that RR wasn't the RR we know... he slowed the ball down too much, luckily it didn't cost us the W. This was a team victory but that doesn't mean that some players weren't more crucial than others.

[birdwatcher]

I'm sorry, I just don't see how people can argue against DWest and BBD being the biggest reason we won with Ray coming in a strong 3rd. DWest came in an started to get the offense going and he was good on D... BBD was hitting shots out of his mind (when they went up I was like "NOOOOO" lol)... Ray hit clutch shots. Again, if you look at the game again, we were down with RR in the game, when he went down and DWest came in we battled back and took the lead... there was a NEW energy with Baby and him in. Even when BBD first came in with RR playing we were getting beat. When RR came back in at the end we lost the lead (go watch the game again) at first... we held on for the win but you could clearly see that RR wasn't the RR we know... he slowed the ball down too much, luckily it didn't cost us the W. This was a team victory but that doesn't mean that some players weren't more crucial than others.

well said, and totally agree.

[Celtics18]

Let's give Jeff Green a little credit too. 

I think we can all agree that the game ball does not go to Nenad Krstic or Paul Pierce. 

[TheBigFive]

I'm sorry, I just don't see how people can argue against DWest and BBD being the biggest reason we won with Ray coming in a strong 3rd. DWest came in an started to get the offense going and he was good on D... BBD was hitting shots out of his mind (when they went up I was like "NOOOOO" lol)... Ray hit clutch shots. Again, if you look at the game again, we were down with RR in the game, when he went down and DWest came in we battled back and took the lead... there was a NEW energy with Baby and him in. Even when BBD first came in with RR playing we were getting beat. When RR came back in at the end we lost the lead (go watch the game again) at first... we held on for the win but you could clearly see that RR wasn't the RR we know... he slowed the ball down too much, luckily it didn't cost us the W. This was a team victory but that doesn't mean that some players weren't more crucial than others.

Ok, I downloaded & rewatched the entire game twice after reading these posts and I can make the following conclusion:

The Celtics started playing their defense starting the second half. Beginning of the 3rd quarter, they started to cut down from 15 to 8 and this is when Ray started hitting 3s WITH Rondo in the game.

[Edited.]
WE as a TEAM started playing better starting the 3rd quarter. Ray wasn't able to get open in the first half but did in the 2nd half. That has a lot to do with the team. BALL MOVEMENT, MEN MOVEMENT. RONDO TOO. THE WHOLE TEAM started playing better.

BBD hit some TOUGH TOUGH fadeaway jumpers. HAD HE MISSED the shots and we ended up losing the game, you guys would be saying "why in the world is BBD taking those shots?". Well since he was able to hit 'those' shots (the shots you DO NOT want him to take), he was able to make the impact he made (PLAYER OF THE GAME, THE GAME CHANGER or whatever the hell you guys want to label him as).

SAME with THE ONES Rondo made. He doesn't usually make those js 3-4  in a row. That's what the Twolves broadcasters kept saying "We will start guarding him once he makes 4-5 in a row." Well Rondo usually can't make those with 3-4sec left in the shotclock. The only reason he takes those is 'cause he can't find anybody open  or gets the ball back with the shotclock down.

WHEN RONDO went OUT, the Celtics were ALREADY playing better bball. They cut the lead down by playing their tight defense. I believe they cut the lead down as close as 7 before and when Delonte came in, it went back up to 9. We were able to come back all the way to take the lead afterward.

[Edited.]

[LilRip]

for those saying Rondo hounded CP3 into 0-9 shooting, that's not true. The same reason it's not true that Ariza hounded Pierce into a 1-9 or whatever it was performance. Pierce was getting good looks out there, i thought. He should've hit around 2 or 3 more 3's or something.