ESPN Fab Five Documentary

[Onslaught]

How can people be saying Grant Hill overreacted?

If video surfaced of white Duke players calling Fab Fivers the n word back in the day it would be a huge event.

But if Jalen Rose called black Duke players Uncle Toms and then produces a video of this and Grant Hill responds "I'm proud of my family and of my education" he's overreacting?

Why is there a double standard about this?

I agree. Fact is Duke wen't after CWebb so in a way Rose is calling him a "Uncle Tom" too.
Duke only takes in people who can make the grades and Rose wasn't one of those guys.
I'm a Duke fan because they only take smart people who can graduate AND play ball.

[GreenFaith1819]

Grant Hill did not over react, IMO. Is it his fault he had a solid upbringing? And as far as Duke is concerned, Rose may have been talented enough to play for Coach K, but was he smart enough? Going to Duke isn't like going to the U of Miami to never open a book or study and just play football. You have to be a very solid student to go there, not just a talented basketball player.

Jalen stated that he was an Honor Roll student in high school during his conversation with Skip Bayless.............

[get_banners]

Jalen should have been more careful with his use of Uncle Tom, but his point is still pretty valid - Duke doesn't recruit a lot of kids from rougher backgrounds, even if they have the grades. That's not so much a knock on Duke (they can do whatever they want) as it is a knock on the system, period. Black players who went to Duke shouldn't be called Uncle Toms, something Rose himself has stated. But Duke doesn't give smart kids from rough backgrounds the same chance they do to more privileged kids. Again, it's their right (one could argue they don't want to take a chance the kid messes up) to do this, but that is what Duke does. Also...Jalen wasn't stupid. He was an honor-roll student and he went to Michigan, which isn't exactly a safety school. But his background (poor, single family house, Detroit) was why Duke wasn't interested.

[guava_wrench]

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but it seems that Hill's response is not to the 19 year-old that thought that about Duke, but about what the present Jalen Rose and his thoughts on the matter.

As Hill mentions in his letter, "Jalen seems to change the usual meaning of those very vitriolic words into his own meaning, i.e., blacks from two-parent, middle-class families. He leaves us all guessing exactly what he believes today."

Jalen and Jimmy King both essentially repeated their comments the day after the documentary aired.

Never really said much about it just being what they felt in the past.

I understand them saying what they did in the documentary, and I understand Grant Hill's response.

I watched this and it seemed clear that Rose is still feels the same way.

The 'Uncle Tom' label is very naive. It tends to be used by those who want to pretend that there is a 'black way of behaving' and African Americans who don't act that way are selling out. That is nonsense. Hill did not act black or white. He was influenced by his upbringing and the schools he went to and neighborhoods he lived in. It is ridiculous that Rose would not fully retract his statements regarding Duke players that questions the integrity of Hill, Brand, etc.

There is an interesting point being made by Rose, but it is being tarnished by his disturbing treatment of many African Americans who went to Duke. Rose's point is that Duke does not put much of an effort into recruiting people with trait X. I say trait X, because it isn't clear what that trait is. When he was young, it seemed he though that trait X was 'acting white', which is nonsense. Now I am not sure if he means come from tough inner city backgrounds or if he just means have a lot of swagger (which would be ridiculous to make a racial issue). I can see Duke purposefully not recruiting guys with 'swagger' and I think such a move should not be criticized. It is fine to consider ego when recruiting. Don't forget, Coach K did study at a military academy. Discipline and structure is likely very important to him.

Ultimately, he sounds to me like he is either crying because he didn't get recruited by Duke (are they supposed to recruit everyone?) or he just lacked respect back then for people with experiences different from his and is now trying to save face.

[JBcat]

I don't follow COllege Basketball and I know very little about the Fab Five.  My outsider perception of them has always been that they were a group of hothead punks who couldn't get the job done despite being overwhelmingly more talented than any other team.   Maybe I should watch the documentary, because that's my perception of them after very little exposure to their story.

Maybe my perception is waaay off, but I have always had this idea in my head that they were a cautionary tale that coaches will show to their super-talented teams... "Sure you got talent, but if you don't harness it properly you'll still lose... like those punk Fab 5 kids.  If you're going to talk a lot of trash you better be willing to back it up with fundamentals, kid".  No?

What's their legacy?  Trash talk, baggy shorts and Antoine Walker-esque empty bragging?  K


Well in my opinion your perception is wrong.   Nobody really expected at the time a team starting 5 freshman to make it to the final 4 and they did it 2 years in a row as sophmores as well.  Up until that time it hadn't been done with 5 freshman starting leading you to the final 4 and I don't think it's been done since.   If it wasn't for a fluke play they would have been champions.  If you listen to Steve Fisher, their coach, he says they were great kids to coach and had a camarardie and chemistry that not all teammates have.  It's amazing that even for a casual college basketball fan people can still rattle off their starting 5 some 20 years later.

I see nothing wrong with some trash talk (some of the best ever were great at it like Bird) and baggy shorts unless if you wish for those old school shorts. 

You should watch it since your perception is so strong. 

[Bahku]

Whatever you feel about the Fab Five today, about what they've become, or their attitudes about their accomplishments, that season was an incredible moment in the history of basketball, and anyone who got to experience it first-hand, (as I was fortunate enough to do so), can not deny the absolute overwhelming odds that these freshmaen overcame to make their mark in the history books. It was a great documentary, a great season, and something I will never forget.

[Last Train]

Jalen should have been more careful with his use of Uncle Tom, but his point is still pretty valid - Duke doesn't recruit a lot of kids from rougher backgrounds, even if they have the grades. That's not so much a knock on Duke (they can do whatever they want) as it is a knock on the system, period. Black players who went to Duke shouldn't be called Uncle Toms, something Rose himself has stated. But Duke doesn't give smart kids from rough backgrounds the same chance they do to more privileged kids. Again, it's their right (one could argue they don't want to take a chance the kid messes up) to do this, but that is what Duke does. Also...Jalen wasn't stupid. He was an honor-roll student and he went to Michigan, which isn't exactly a safety school. But his background (poor, single family house, Detroit) was why Duke wasn't interested.

How is it still pretty valid? It would only be valid if Duke recruited white kids with rougher backgrounds. I'm not aware of this (I could be wrong.) So in no way was it or is it an Uncle Tom situation - and I can't stand Duke...

[Eja117]

Jalen should have been more careful with his use of Uncle Tom, but his point is still pretty valid - Duke doesn't recruit a lot of kids from rougher backgrounds, even if they have the grades. That's not so much a knock on Duke (they can do whatever they want) as it is a knock on the system, period. Black players who went to Duke shouldn't be called Uncle Toms, something Rose himself has stated. But Duke doesn't give smart kids from rough backgrounds the same chance they do to more privileged kids. Again, it's their right (one could argue they don't want to take a chance the kid messes up) to do this, but that is what Duke does. Also...Jalen wasn't stupid. He was an honor-roll student and he went to Michigan, which isn't exactly a safety school. But his background (poor, single family house, Detroit) was why Duke wasn't interested.

Maybe the reason Duke wasn't and doesn't recruit players with "rough" backgrounds is because they don't want to deal with the whole one and done thing and don't want players that will associate with agents and result in them having to vacate years of wins.

Maybe they saw kids acting like rock stars and thought "Step away. Not today."

And as for making their mark in the history books that mark is now erased. Unless the mark we're talking about is something like "most wins vacated"

[housecall]

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but it seems that Hill's response is not to the 19 year-old that thought that about Duke, but about what the present Jalen Rose and his thoughts on the matter.

As Hill mentions in his letter, "Jalen seems to change the usual meaning of those very vitriolic words into his own meaning, i.e., blacks from two-parent, middle-class families. He leaves us all guessing exactly what he believes today."

Jalen and Jimmy King both essentially repeated their comments the day after the documentary aired.

Never really said much about it just being what they felt in the past.

I understand them saying what they did in the documentary, and I understand Grant Hill's response.

I watched this and it seemed clear that Rose is still feels the same way.

The 'Uncle Tom' label is very naive. It tends to be used by those who want to pretend that there is a 'black way of behaving' and African Americans who don't act that way are selling out. That is nonsense. Hill did not act black or white. He was influenced by his upbringing and the schools he went to and neighborhoods he lived in. It is ridiculous that Rose would not fully retract his statements regarding Duke players that questions the integrity of Hill, Brand, etc.

There is an interesting point being made by Rose, but it is being tarnished by his disturbing treatment of many African Americans who went to Duke. Rose's point is that Duke does not put much of an effort into recruiting people with trait X. I say trait X, because it isn't clear what that trait is. When he was young, it seemed he though that trait X was 'acting white', which is nonsense. Now I am not sure if he means come from tough inner city backgrounds or if he just means have a lot of swagger (which would be ridiculous to make a racial issue). I can see Duke purposefully not recruiting guys with 'swagger' and I think such a move should not be criticized. It is fine to consider ego when recruiting. Don't forget, Coach K did study at a military academy. Discipline and structure is likely very important to him.

Ultimately, he sounds to me like he is either crying because he didn't get recruited by Duke (are they supposed to recruit everyone?) or he just lacked respect back then for people with experiences different from his and is now trying to save face.

TP...I agree with all you said in your post...even though most people find the documentary well done i found it to be incomplete.Without C.Webb's participation it leaves some key issues in the documentary open for questions to be asked.Also without his willingness to be a part of the documentary makes it less than 100%authentic in my opinion.I think there was more to the money situation in Detroit.  

[footey]

Jalen should have been more careful with his use of Uncle Tom, but his point is still pretty valid - Duke doesn't recruit a lot of kids from rougher backgrounds, even if they have the grades. That's not so much a knock on Duke (they can do whatever they want) as it is a knock on the system, period. Black players who went to Duke shouldn't be called Uncle Toms, something Rose himself has stated. But Duke doesn't give smart kids from rough backgrounds the same chance they do to more privileged kids. Again, it's their right (one could argue they don't want to take a chance the kid messes up) to do this, but that is what Duke does. Also...Jalen wasn't stupid. He was an honor-roll student and he went to Michigan, which isn't exactly a safety school. But his background (poor, single family house, Detroit) was why Duke wasn't interested.

I did not see the documentary. Is that true that Duke was not interested in recruiting Jalen Rose? 

[footey]

My affection for the Fab Five:  I picked them to go all the way that year in the NCAA pool, and won the pool even though they lost in the finals.  I just had a hunch they were going to do damage that year.  Only time I ever won a March Madness pool, and I have played them almost every year.  They were not seeded very high that year, so I went with the long shot.

[Assassin70]

Liked the documentary.  I am currently 34 now.

FYI - I also felt the same way Jalen did @ the time he said it.  Like Jalen, I have since actually learned a few things about the world since then.

On the Grant Hill response:

He could either have chose to say nothing or say something...he chose to say something...I don't mind either way.

[Finkelskyhook]

I love it when people like Adrian Peterson and Jalen Rose...Two men who have accumulated immense wealth because of the opportunities afforded them by primarily white coaches, white run colleges,  and white owners...Play the race card when things don't go exactly the way they think they should go.

Welcome to the real world, Jalen.  You were a pedestrian NBA player (at best) being paid like a superstar because of the opportunities afforded you at Michigan.  If you would have been an Uncle Tom and gone to Duke you'd have probably been exposed as a pedestrian NBA prospect prior to the draft.  I'm guessing that with the exception of Chris Webber, none of the Fab Five would have been more than role players in Coach K's system. 

What Adrian Peterson said goes beyond my commentary.  I should be such a slave....

[get_banners]

How is it still pretty valid? It would only be valid if Duke recruited white kids with rougher backgrounds. I'm not aware of this (I could be wrong.) So in no way was it or is it an Uncle Tom situation - and I can't stand Duke...

No, that's my point - it's not necessarily about race (though the correlation between poverty and race is high). Duke tends to recruit a particular type of kid. They don't often opt for smart kids who come from tough backgrounds. Again, there is an argument to be made that they're being smart in doing that (less potential trouble down the road with those kids...maybe), but I think a lot of kids rightfully detest Duke because of that. Again, Uncle Tom was the wrong phrase to use...but that was 18 year old Jalen.

[get_banners]

Maybe the reason Duke wasn't and doesn't recruit players with "rough" backgrounds is because they don't want to deal with the whole one and done thing and don't want players that will associate with agents and result in them having to vacate years of wins.

Maybe they saw kids acting like rock stars and thought "Step away. Not today."

And as for making their mark in the history books that mark is now erased. Unless the mark we're talking about is something like "most wins vacated"

Again, fair point. Though understand that this only encourages the cycle of elitism in our country. Re: punk kids, Laettner and Bobby Hurley were much worse than the Fab Five. Grant Hill was a class act and has always been an exemplary person (and very proud of his race), so it is unfortunate he's becoming the center of focus here (based on Jalen's words as a kid, mind you), but Laettner and Hurley were much worse than the Fab Five. Great college players, sure. But arrogant punks as well.