ESPN Fab Five Documentary

[LarBrd33]

I don't follow COllege Basketball and I know very little about the Fab Five.  My outsider perception of them has always been that they were a group of hothead punks who couldn't get the job done despite being overwhelmingly more talented than any other team.   Maybe I should watch the documentary, because that's my perception of them after very little exposure to their story.

Maybe my perception is waaay off, but I have always had this idea in my head that they were a cautionary tale that coaches will show to their super-talented teams... "Sure you got talent, but if you don't harness it properly you'll still lose... like those punk Fab 5 kids.  If you're going to talk a lot of trash you better be willing to back it up with fundamentals, kid".  No?

What's their legacy?  Trash talk, baggy shorts and Antoine Walker-esque empty bragging?  K

[GreenFaith1819]

Grant Hill's response to Jalen Rose's comments in the documentary. It's a good read, imo.

Link

TP.

Great response by Grant Hill as well.

Grant Hills response was an overreaction in my opinion and proves that he cant relate to the other side. Its clear he has been hearing these types of insults his entire life, and chose this time after the Fab Five documentary to make his statement.

C'mon, an "overreaction"?

The guy was called an "uncle Tom" on a nationally televised program.  That's pretty offensive to some.  He had every right to come back the way he did. 

I don't think you could handle it much better than Grant Hill right there.

No it was an overreaction. If you break it down, this is a 38 year old man responding to a 20 year old kid's comments. Not that heroic. Jalen admitted that these were feelings that he had when he was playing, not now. He was jealous of someone in a better home situation and therefore took it out on him irrationally. Jalen admitted this was wrong, end of story. Grant Hill would have impressed me if he just didn't respond at all.

I agree - I think Grant Hill over-reacted here.

[bdm860]

Grant Hill's response to Jalen Rose's comments in the documentary. It's a good read, imo.

Link

TP.

Great response by Grant Hill as well.

Grant Hills response was an overreaction in my opinion and proves that he cant relate to the other side. Its clear he has been hearing these types of insults his entire life, and chose this time after the Fab Five documentary to make his statement.

C'mon, an "overreaction"?

The guy was called an "uncle Tom" on a nationally televised program.  That's pretty offensive to some.  He had every right to come back the way he did. 

I don't think you could handle it much better than Grant Hill right there.

No it was an overreaction. If you break it down, this is a 38 year old man responding to a 20 year old kid's comments. Not that heroic. Jalen admitted that these were feelings that he had when he was playing, not now. He was jealous of someone in a better home situation and therefore took it out on him irrationally. Jalen admitted this was wrong, end of story. Grant Hill would have impressed me if he just didn't respond at all.

I agree - I think Grant Hill over-reacted here.

I don't know if I call Grant Hill's response an overreaction, but I can see both sides of this.

One thing I thought would have made the documentary better, would be to have guys like Christian Laettner and Grant Hill give interviews too.  I mean obviously the documentary was about the Fab Five, but it would just have been more well rounded I think to intertwine what the Fab Five players thought of Duke with what the Duke players thought of the Fab Five.  Like when they interview Magic for a Larry Bird documentary.

[Eja117]

I don't follow COllege Basketball and I know very little about the Fab Five.  My outsider perception of them has always been that they were a group of hothead punks who couldn't get the job done despite being overwhelmingly more talented than any other team.   Maybe I should watch the documentary, because that's my perception of them after very little exposure to their story.

Maybe my perception is waaay off, but I have always had this idea in my head that they were a cautionary tale that coaches will show to their super-talented teams... "Sure you got talent, but if you don't harness it properly you'll still lose... like those punk Fab 5 kids.  If you're going to talk a lot of trash you better be willing to back it up with fundamentals, kid".  No?

What's their legacy?  Trash talk, baggy shorts and Antoine Walker-esque empty bragging?  K

Don't forget two important pieces of Juwan Howard's legacy.

First player ever to leave college early and still graduate on time

A paternal support settlement giving his kid about 2 cents for every hundred dollars he made.

just another non-father.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but it seems that Hill's response is not to the 19 year-old that thought that about Duke, but about what the present Jalen Rose and his thoughts on the matter.

As Hill mentions in his letter, "Jalen seems to change the usual meaning of those very vitriolic words into his own meaning, i.e., blacks from two-parent, middle-class families. He leaves us all guessing exactly what he believes today."

[Eja117]

If Jalen didn't feel this way he wouldn't so proudly display it right?

So who's the Uncle Tom now? I guarantee if Jalen Rose had an 18 year old son being recruited by Duke or Mich right now he'd want him to go to Duke.

[barefacedmonk]

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but it seems that Hill's response is not to the 19 year-old that thought that about Duke, but about what the present Jalen Rose and his thoughts on the matter.

As Hill mentions in his letter, "Jalen seems to change the usual meaning of those very vitriolic words into his own meaning, i.e., blacks from two-parent, middle-class families. He leaves us all guessing exactly what he believes today."

If Jalen didn't feel this way he wouldn't so proudly display it right?

So who's the Uncle Tom now? I guarantee if Jalen Rose had an 18 year old son being recruited by Duke or Mich right now he'd want him to go to Duke.

+1 to both posts.

[bdm860]

If Jalen didn't feel this way he wouldn't so proudly display it right?

So who's the Uncle Tom now? I guarantee if Jalen Rose had an 18 year old son being recruited by Duke or Mich right now he'd want him to go to Duke.

See I think it's this kind of mindset why people hate Duke so much, including Jalen.

What makes you think hands down he would he want his son to go to Duke?

If you're talking only basketball: Duke is consistently a powerhouse, sure, but they don't seem to get a lot of the top recruits.  I don't see why Duke would be his top choice.  If anything he'd probably want to send his son somewhere in the Big East if not Michigan.  He might even send him to San Diego State with Steve Fisher.

And if we're talking overall school, well check out some of the rankings:

Michigan has the 4th ranked business program, ranked better than Duke and most ivy league schools.
Although Duke has a better ranked MBA program (ranked 12 to Michigan's 14).

Michigan has the 7th ranked undergrad engineering program and 9th ranked grad engineering program, both ranked better than Duke and most ivy league schools.

Michigan has the 7th ranked law program, ranked better than Duke and most ivy league schools.

For med school, Michigan is ranked #20 for Primary Care, while Duke is #41 (although for research Duke is ranked #4 while Michigan is ranked #10).

For grad schools Michigan is ranked 9th in Education, 8th in Math, 11th in Physics, 16th in Chemistry, 13th in Computer Science, 20th in Biological Sciences, 9th in Earth Sciences, and 12th in Statistics, 37th in Fine Arts, 12th in Economics, 7th in History, 3rd in Psychology, 3rd in Sociology, 4th in Political Science, 6th in Nursing, 7th in Public Affairs   - all are better rankings than Duke (except Stats, Duke is ranked 9th, also ranked Duke is better in English at 10th).

Although being fair, for overall undergrad program Duke is ranked 9th to Michigan's 29th.

Source:  http://www.usnews.com/rankings

Now in sports, in my opinion, there's only 2 college sports that matter, basketball and football.  Duke consistently has the better basketball program, Michigan consistently has the better football program.  (Although looking at athletics overall using the NACDA Directors Cup, it looks like Michigan is consistently better than Duke in overall athletics, in the last 18 years, Michigan was ranked in the top ten 14 times, Duke only made the top ten 5 times - and for two of those Michigan was ranked higher). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NACDA_Director%27s_Cup

It looks like in no way, shape, or form can you flat out say Duke is a better school than Michigan.  If anything, most of the rankings seem to say Michigan is better than Duke (not what I'm trying to argue though).

And that's way people hate Duke, because people seem to think Duke is so great and better than it's peers.

Even if it's just for basketball, I see no way Jalen would ever want his son to go to Duke.  (And if Duke is recruiting you, you know other top schools are too).

[Eja117]

If Jalen didn't feel this way he wouldn't so proudly display it right?

So who's the Uncle Tom now? I guarantee if Jalen Rose had an 18 year old son being recruited by Duke or Mich right now he'd want him to go to Duke.

See I think it's this kind of mindset why people hate Duke so much, including Jalen.

What makes you think hands down he would he want his son to go to Duke?

If you're talking only basketball: Duke is consistently a powerhouse, sure, but they don't seem to get a lot of the top recruits.  I don't see why Duke would be his top choice.  If anything he'd probably want to send his son somewhere in the Big East if not Michigan.  He might even send him to San Diego State with Steve Fisher.

And if we're talking overall school, well check out some of the rankings:

Michigan has the 4th ranked business program, ranked better than Duke and most ivy league schools.
Although Duke has a better ranked MBA program (ranked 12 to Michigan's 14).

Michigan has the 7th ranked undergrad engineering program and 9th ranked grad engineering program, both ranked better than Duke and most ivy league schools.

Michigan has the 7th ranked law program, ranked better than Duke and most ivy league schools.

For med school, Michigan is ranked #20 for Primary Care, while Duke is #41 (although for research Duke is ranked #4 while Michigan is ranked #10).

For grad schools Michigan is ranked 9th in Education, 8th in Math, 11th in Physics, 16th in Chemistry, 13th in Computer Science, 20th in Biological Sciences, 9th in Earth Sciences, and 12th in Statistics, 37th in Fine Arts, 12th in Economics, 7th in History, 3rd in Psychology, 3rd in Sociology, 4th in Political Science, 6th in Nursing, 7th in Public Affairs   - all are better rankings than Duke (except Stats, Duke is ranked 9th, also ranked Duke is better in English at 10th).

Although being fair, for overall undergrad program Duke is ranked 9th to Michigan's 29th.

Source:  http://www.usnews.com/rankings

Now in sports, in my opinion, there's only 2 college sports that matter, basketball and football.  Duke consistently has the better basketball program, Michigan consistently has the better football program.  (Although looking at athletics overall using the NACDA Directors Cup, it looks like Michigan is consistently better than Duke in overall athletics, in the last 18 years, Michigan was ranked in the top ten 14 times, Duke only made the top ten 5 times - and for two of those Michigan was ranked higher). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NACDA_Director%27s_Cup

It looks like in no way, shape, or form can you flat out say Duke is a better school than Michigan.  If anything, most of the rankings seem to say Michigan is better than Duke (not what I'm trying to argue though).

And that's way people hate Duke, because people seem to think Duke is so great and better than it's peers.

Even if it's just for basketball, I see no way Jalen would ever want his son to go to Duke.  (And if Duke is recruiting you, you know other top schools are too).

Ok ok ok.

I'll do my best to respond to this because it definitely deserves a response.

First off I have nothing against Mich whatsoever (except maybe the Fab Five, but everyone makes a mistake).

Second I made many many assumptions.

1 is that Jalen Rose would be a good father similar to Doc Rivers, which is a huge assumption.

2.  Jalen is trying to set up his career for the NBA, not as a lawyer, doctor, or engineer. And not in the NFL in which case he's going to Mich hands down

3.  Duke with the USA basketball coach would be better at preparing him for the NBA than Mich.

4. I dispute that Duke doesn't get great recruits (at least in comparison to Mich)

5. I agree completely with your notion that other schools would be recruiting him too and some might be a better academic fit for Jalen Jr, such as UNC or something. I assumed a fictional world of Duke vs Mich.

6. I see what you're saying about Mich being the #4 business school, but if you follow that through its natural course that's like saying if you go to Mich for business you'll get a better education for the rest of your life there, than at Princeton if Princeton is #5, and I don't really buy that assumption.

You make very very good points and I agree with almost all of them, but generally I stand by my original statement.

[heitingas]

jalen rose is the producer of this film, so it's like he had an agenda, why did he say he had those thoughts and called and apologized to hill before it aired ?
on the other end grant hill overreacted.

[Fafnir]

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but it seems that Hill's response is not to the 19 year-old that thought that about Duke, but about what the present Jalen Rose and his thoughts on the matter.

As Hill mentions in his letter, "Jalen seems to change the usual meaning of those very vitriolic words into his own meaning, i.e., blacks from two-parent, middle-class families. He leaves us all guessing exactly what he believes today."

Jalen and Jimmy King both essentially repeated their comments the day after the documentary aired.

Never really said much about it just being what they felt in the past.

I understand them saying what they did in the documentary, and I understand Grant Hill's response.

[Eja117]

If Jalen is so bitter about his mom having to work hard and being the son of a pro athlete he never knew why isn't he angry at Juwan Howard?

Howard's case represents the opposite end of the spectrum. In August 1996 he offered to pay $700 a month to Markita Robinson of Detroit after it was determined that he was the father of their son, MarTez D'Shon Robinson. Having just signed a seven-year, $105 million contract, Howard was volunteering to contribute about a nickel for every $100 he earned (excluding endorsements). After rejecting the offer, Robinson, who was intermittently on welfare from the time of the child's birth in February 1992 until December 1995, filed a suit seeking more than $11,000 per month that claimed, "Mr. Howard's initial response...was that the birth was [my] choice and therefore he should not have to pay child support." Howard and Robinson settled out of court and refuse to discuss terms of the agreement.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1012762/3/index.htm#ixzz1GufySAuo

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/basketball/mens/news/story?id=4848717


Basically Juwan Howard CAUSES the EXACT problem that Jalen says he's so bitter about, but gets a free pass.  But hey. He keeps in touch with the kid via text and 3 phone calls per month.

So who's an uncle tom? Who's selling out their race?

[dasani]

I agree with all those who said that Grant Hill overreacted.

as for the documentary....I agree with that it is one of the best 30 for 30 docs. I was a big CWebb fan back in the day. I can see how frustrating the loses (esp the last one) were to him. But I definitely agree with Jalen on the booster issue. CWebb sold his man out there. I can see why he doesn't want to talk about these past issues.

[Eja117]

How can people be saying Grant Hill overreacted?

If video surfaced of white Duke players calling Fab Fivers the n word back in the day it would be a huge event.

But if Jalen Rose called black Duke players Uncle Toms and then produces a video of this and Grant Hill responds "I'm proud of my family and of my education" he's overreacting?

Why is there a double standard about this?

[birdwatcher]

Grant Hill did not over react, IMO. Is it his fault he had a solid upbringing? And as far as Duke is concerned, Rose may have been talented enough to play for Coach K, but was he smart enough? Going to Duke isn't like going to the U of Miami to never open a book or study and just play football. You have to be a very solid student to go there, not just a talented basketball player.